Thinkpads Forum

A little background. I owned a T440p for a brief period of time before realizing that ergonomics meant way more to me than raw power because my main use is programming. So I bought a T60 and decided that I would frankenpad it. Bought the device based off of the general consensus that it was compatible with Linux (paramount), the build quality was stellar, the screen was amazing, and that the keyboard was the best.

I found that only two were fulfilled initially. It worked with Linux well and the IPS display was amazing.
But that's not why I bought this laptop. I use a Model M and need a good keyboard. Luckily, I found that a) I received a very worn out Chicony, which I replaced with a pristine NMB, and b) the lack of support in the upper left corner of the base made the entire left side loud and ugly to type on. Luckily, this was fixable, so I followed a user's advice and applied "supports" under that part of the keyboard. Problem solved.

That leaves the build quality. Average. So ridiculously average. Why does everyone rave about it so much? It's not special. AT ALL. This is not even close to the T440p, which I thought was a step down. My dad's 10 year old Dell Latitude flexes less than this thing. Hell, my mom's 5 year old Inspiron is comparable. Additionally, The frame is perfect. Everyone talks about how the lid is rock solid and how the sides don't flex at all. I can press down in the middle of the lid and depress it by 3-4mm without much pressure. I can do the same if I pick it up and pinch on the ultrabay area. The palm rest is flimsy as well, though this isn't a primary concern.

What are your personal convictions for considering this laptop "sturdy"? I really would like to know.

EDIT: Thank you guys for the thorough responses. I am now much more content with my build, knowing that flex != sturdiness/build quality.

I consider them sturdy because I personally have 2 of them that are 6.5 years old, have been taking moderate abuse (including functioning as daily drivers part of that time) and still work, with nothing broken.

You seem to equate build quality with lack of flex. I don't think it's always the correct way to look at things.

With that said, I haven't seen any massive declines in build quality in later Thinkpads compared to the T60. But I haven't used all of them, only some.

If you base you view on laptop build quality, upon the amount of flec you are looking at it in a fundamentally wrong way. Amount of flex =/= quality

It is also about the ruggedness, ability to withstand wear, ability to withstand abuse.

The thinkpads migth flex. But the rollcage will prevent the flex from harming the components, thus the ability to will flex will actually prevent dents. That is a good thing. Look at the MBP: It can't flex at all. It dents. destroying both the hardware, and the case.

The hinges on the T60s are rock solid. They migth get a little play after some years, but they are still in far better condition than most laptops out there.

About the lid; Well.. it flexes a little (in the middle) on my W500 too. But.. i stood on it (70 kg force) three different times to prove it to other people. No harm done. Its not about the flex.

Its all about the construction.

Indeed... as the guys outlined above, the flexing doesn't precisely mean it's horribly put together.

But I'd offer another explanation on top of what's been said... the way I view the T60 is that it may feel a bit flimsy, but underneath those thin plastic panels is a roll cage that protects the motherboard and critical parts from damage and shock when the laptop is dropped or exposed to force or pressure from any direction. The newer Thinkpads may be like that too and have a solid outside- but the other point of having a T60 over a T440 is... of course, a 4:3 screen.

So don't fret too much over the pieces flexing on the outside. QWERTY Andreas outlines it nicely:

thus the ability to will flex will actually prevent dents. That is a good thing. Look at the MBP: It can flex at all. It dents. destroying both the hardware, and the case.

Put more clearly, because the plastic flexes, sudden jabs or drops will result in chips at worst, which can be glued back on, or the panel can even be replaced. It's easy and cheap to replace as well, due to it being plastic. Those new Aluminum Ultrabooks, and the newer Thinkpads with the steel finish on the outside, will easily dent. And I can't imagine something like that coming apart easy.

However-the main reason you'd own a T60, especially a T60/61 Frankie, is for the 4:3 screen. So if you can go without it, I'd go for a W500 or newer high-end Thinkpad.

I certainly consider the T601 FrankenPad sturdy AND great!
As a matter of fact I have built dozens of them, and sold them worldwide for amazing prices, BECAUSE of their quality!
To show you what I'm talking about: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=108270
I'm not sure you even have a FrankenPad, what motherboard/CPU/LCD is in your machine?
Did you check your machine thoroughly, anything broken/cracked/missing?

the lack of support in the upper left corner of the base

Presumably your frame is cracked there, and not perfect as you claim...

RealBlackStuff wrote:I certainly consider the T601 FrankenPad sturdy AND great!
As a matter of fact I have built dozens of them, and sold them worldwide for amazing prices, BECAUSE of their quality!
To show you what I'm talking about: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=108270
I'm not sure you even have a FrankenPad, what motherboard/CPU/LCD is in your machine?
Did you check your machine thoroughly, anything broken/cracked/missing?

the lack of support in the upper left corner of the base

Presumably your frame is cracked there, and not perfect as you claim...

Now, in response to you @RealBlackStuff , search this forum and you'll notice that a common problem among 15" T60 ThinkPads is that there is significant flex in the upper left area of the keyboard. Present in 14" models, but highly minimal in comparison to the 15". Nonexistent in T4x. But, easily fixed.

Of all the Thinkpads, Elitebooks and Lattitudes that I've used over the years. I consider the T60 and to a lesser extent T61 to be very sturdy and rock solid Thinkpads. My T601 Frankenpad is one of my favourite machine.

I don't notice/mine the keyboard flex on my T60s and Frankenpad. I do not associate keyboard flex with a laptop being not sturdy.

@ManInBlack:
You state yourself that the flex is in the keyboard
Keyboards are mostly built on a very thin sheet of flexible aluminum, and not every laptop is perfect when it comes to fitting the keyboard, including the 15" T60.
You also state yourself that the flex can be easily fixed.
We all know that, and if not: would have found its (only few) posts about this on the forum.

And then you modify your original post:

ManInBlack wrote:EDIT: Thank you guys for the thorough responses. I am now much more content with my build, knowing that flex != sturdiness/build quality.

You should have made such a statement in a separate follow-up post instead...

Now what was your point of making all this hullabaloo about not seeing the greatness of a Frankie?

I dont own a Frankenpad.. if by that you mean putting a T61 board into a T60 to gain access to more ram etc.. Given the problems with the T61 boards that have Nvidia, I dont see them as desirable - let alone as a upgrade.

I do now own two T60 I purchased with no HD / OS, and set up with minimal extra cost the way I wanted them.

For $43 out the door inc/ shipping I got a bare bones 14 inch T60 with ATI graphics and later added a 2.0 mhz Core 2 duo processor for a extra $16 bucks.
For $46 out the door inc/shippiing I got a 15.4" T60 widescreen with ATI graphics that came with a 2.0 mhz core 2 chip.

Both run Windows 7 and Windows 8 perfectly, they score 3.7 and 3.9 on windows experience scale evaluations which is middle of the pack, they are basically disposable given the prices I have invested in them.
I cant speak for anyone else..
but the value to me is in the fact that they are the most recent 'retired' models that have the ability to use SATA drives, address respectable amounts of RAM (the one I own that came with 2gig is quite snappy to open any program), do have metal structural components unlike the competitors, are quite easy to r&r parts or drives unlike other brands, have a massive aftermarket supply of parts avail, and most importantly can still be had if you shop around for under 50 bucks.

Yeah, there are plenty of hopeful sellers seeking to juice $200 for a T60 on Ebay, and even many sellers asking retail prices for units with no hard drive or OS that are around the price for a brand new laptop with a licensed Win8 installed, but you will note that those do not tend to sell and get relisted over and over again.

A aftermarket computer shop that is in the Chicago area is attempting to sell a stockpile of T60's - without discrete graphics - for nearly $300 a pop after the sales tax. The computer is not even close to being a value in these cases.

The value I see is to those who buy these units for personal use from a wholesaler who is genuinely clearing out off-lease units they bought in bulk, test for a BIOS boot/p-word and clear out such off-lease equipment at realistic prices (see above). Its largely a waste of time to even consider a T60 from someone who wants full retail prices or who sets up the computer from a cloned drive for buyers, because the price they are seeking is close to that of current, brand new equipment that is faster and more powerful.

I dont see as many constant and similar complaints about the T60 as I do with the T61/R400/R500 concerning the same particular manufacturing and design issues over and over again. The T60 is a good second-hand computer that originally cost $1500-$2000 and can be bought for less than a junk Compaq Pentium 2 of approx zero usefulness.You can obtain one off-lease for less than the cost of a couple lunches or dinners, and it was manufactured with components that are still useful and respectable by todays standards.

Penultimate wrote:I dont own a Frankenpad.. if by that you mean putting a T61 board into a T60 to gain access to more ram etc.. Given the problems with the T61 boards that have Nvidia, I dont see them as desirable - let alone as a upgrade.

You're forgetting the Intel boards,which are both safer and quieter than anything seen in T60.

As for nVidia ones, many people are willing to take a risk to get the performance boost that these offer.

ajkula66 wrote:

Penultimate wrote:I dont own a Frankenpad.. if by that you mean putting a T61 board into a T60 to gain access to more ram etc.. Given the problems with the T61 boards that have Nvidia, I dont see them as desirable - let alone as a upgrade.

You're forgetting the Intel boards,which are both safer and quieter than anything seen in T60.

As for nVidia ones, many people are willing to take a risk to get the performance boost that these offer.

For my purposes I would not consider a computer with Intel Graphics. I specifically waited to find a inexpensive ATI computer and made sure it was not a 19xx before I bought it.
I guess for someone who has no gaming interest at all, or who is more concerned only about increasing addressable RAM, Intel would not be a issue, but I would rather have the more well-optioned unit from its day, if all else is equal, so I specifically waited for ATI machines.

You can even see in the Ebay ads, the T60's that are clearly described as Intel graphics tend get relisted over and over again and comprise the bulk of what is being offered especially at the lower price range..

IMO, a well sourced T61 board is well worth it in order to Frankenpad it to get a 4:3 Flexview screen. TuuS was and have been a great hep to me in this regards. A T61 gives me a slightly faster and cooler CPU, 8 GB RAM and SATA II support.

Penultimate wrote:
You can even see in the Ebay ads, the T60's that are clearly described as Intel graphics tend get relisted over and over again and comprise the bulk of what is being offered especially at the lower price range..

I was talking about T61 with Intel graphics, not T60 and the difference in performance between the two is night and day.

An Intel board with a Penryn CPU and 4GB or more of RAM is a very viable platform for business use even today.

As for the gaming...all of these GPUs are outdated by a huge margin.

I'm happy that you're happy with your T60s. They are fine machines. My daughter to this day refuses to give up hers.

Having said that, a well-sorted T61 will run circles around any T60/p any day of the week and any hour of the day. That's why people build FrankenPads.

The Thinkpad T60, is a pretty iconic Thinkpad to me and to a lot of the people I share my interest with(even though they think I'm a crazy person for having such a particular interest) because it's a huge focal point in the Thinkpad lineage-the last generation of the Thinkpad mobile workstation to utilize the 4:3 screen aspect ratio, and also the first in the T-series(mainstream mobile workstation) to feature SATA and numerous other advancements including multi-processing and newly-introduced DDR2 RAM(back then.) On top of that, it follows well with the traditional Thinkpad appearance and feel... well, far moreso than the Thinkpads that follow it, such as the T510, T520 and especially the new Haswell Thinkpads. I've sold a couple of T60s to people I know, and people who've had the chance to trial-run one really appreciate how amazingly powerful it still feels(as long as you take care of it) despite it's age. This goes for even the Intel-gfx T60s.

The T61 features SATA 2, a newer chipset(more RAM, better power management and multi-core bridging) and Penryn, so if you've tried a T60 but haven't tried a T61, you'd be very surprised how much faster and more powerful a T61 can be. Yes, the T61 is only a generation newer, the 4:3 models are getting increasingly rare and are only available in 14", and all the NVIDIA-chipped 4:3 T61s(except some warranty-repaired ones) are doomed, but... it's amazing what one will do for a computer they know will be perfect for them.

The one thing that always gets on my nerves a little is that people are always afraid of anything with Nvidia from that era and most of the issues can be avoided with proper maintenance. I have salvaged some boards from that era and some are indeed hopeless but a good reflow will fix the issue well enough that the board can be useful. Performance wise those boards are the best except for the slower Quadro nvs140m due to turbocache. Enjoying my T60/p that I modded for gaming along with my daily a T500. Will never bother with anything newer as they are plastic (screen body).

ManlnBlack wrote:This is not even close to the T440p, which I thought was a step down.

To be fair, you'd need to compare this 7-year-old T60 with a 7-year-old T440p, and both would need to have gone through the same level of abuse.