Differences between T60, T61, and Frankenpad

[TRS-80]

OK, as some of you know, I have a small landscape company. I have settled on using T4x/R5x mounted in the trucks for data collection, they suit my needs perfectly well and are not only very durable but also quite inexpensive at this point.

But I would like something slightly snappier / more powerful for personal use. I have fallen in love with the old school IBM build quality and 4:3 screen. Therefore I am pretty sure I am looking at a T60/61 or maybe a Frankenpad. I am pretty sure I would like the extra screen real estate of a 15" screen, and a little higher resolution would also be nice (currently used to 14.1" XGA on T4x/R5x).

I have been doing quite a bit of reading, so far my understanding is that the T61 has some small technological advances? Like you can put Middleton's BIOS on it to achieve SATA 2 speeds?

But T60s were better in some other ways? Like available screens (FlexView?)? I am guessing that this is why people take some of the best from each (T60 and 61) and combine them to make a Frankenpad (i.e., the best of both worlds)?

I have been reading this sub forum quite a bit, and will continue to do so as time permits, but I am still a bit confused on the differences and then what would be the "optimal" build for my needs. Perhaps if some of the more knowledgeable folks would be kind enough to chime in and summarize, I could more quickly move into the stage of "hunting for parts" followed by actual "building."

[dr_st]

There are indeed good reasons as to why a T60/T61 combo makes the most popular "Frankenpad" in recent years.

The technological advantages of a T61 over a T60 did not feel like much at the time the systems were released, in part, because it took some time to discover them. But nowadays, they do make a tangible difference.

While a stock T61 vs a stock T60 may not give you that much more, T61 has far more unlockable potential. The key points are:

* 8GB RAM limit versus 3GB on T60. This becomes a bigger deal with every passing day. 8GB is the de-facto low-mid standard for today's computing.
* SATA2 potential which is unlockable by Middleton's BIOS. T60's SATA1 limitation is hardware, and cannot be overcome.
* CPU speeds that go much higher than T60. The latest Penryn's compatible with a T61 are 2.8GHz (some extreme variants / overclocking can take you maybe even up to 3GHz), and getting a 2.5GHz CPU is pretty standard and not at all expensive. They also have 6GB cache. T60 fastest CPU is at 2.33GHz with 4MB cache, and the 2.33GHz variant is very expensive, being top of the line for its category. So for a typical configuration you will be looking at a T60 with 2GHz, 4MB cache and 667MHz RAM versus a 2.5GHz, 6MB cache, 800MHz RAM on a T61. A bunch of little things but all together enough to make a difference.

The advantages of T60 are indeed mostly related to the screen. High-res 4:3 screens are more common, and of course, the 15" variant is the Flexview IPS, which was never offered on a T61. So putting a T61 board in a T60 chassis gives you all the benefits of the better hardware, with the gorgeous IPS screen. Finally (although a personal taste), I find the T61 chassis very ugly, while the T60 is one of the prettier Thinkpads in my opinion, and again, Frankenpadding gives you that.

There may be just a couple of things for which the T60 hardware itself is superior to a T61:

* No problematic nVidia GPUs, which are, at least theoretically, more likely to fail, unless your T61 has a later (past 08/08) motherboard, or Intel graphics. But, IMO, the importance of that is overemphasized. Not to mention that watt-per-watt, the T61 GPU will outperform the T60 GPU (i.e., 570M vs V5200/5250, 140M vs X1300/1400 or X3100 vs GMA950).
* The T60 has a true stereo mix capability (you can directly record and mix whatever your audio device is playing). For the T61 I believe the sound hardware has been deliberately crippled, so it's no longer an option (although there may be workarounds).

But as you see, both these points are fairly weak. Frankenpadding really is the way to go if you plan to use the machine as your daily driver in any way.

[TRS-80]

Than you dr_st for your very informative reply!

Alright, before I begin to "zero in" on a T60/61/Frankenpad build, let me first "back out" to a more higher level / summary question, which is something that may be difficult to search for / learn as someone new to the Thinkpad scene.

What I seem to be picking up on is that people stay with the T60s and Frankenpads mainly for 2 reasons. First and foremost, because they are stuck on 4:3 screens, and secondly because of love of old-school "classic" IBM build quality.

This may be blaspheming, but if I am really honest, I do like the 4:3, but I am not married to it. It is my understanding that, moving forward through T61s and even T400/500 that (at least some of) the widescreens available were 16:10 ratio? I could possibly be OK with that. 16:9 however is where I draw the line, no way Jose! So what would be the advantages of moving in that direction? I am guessing, again newer tech, such as newer CPU families, SATA and USB generations, etc... I have heard maybe that the actual screen quality however may be poorer on some of the "newer" Lenovo models (too "blue")?

Also, going back to build quality of the "classics", at what point did Lenovo really start messing things up? lol I hear chicklet keyboards didn't start until after the 400/500 series? What other considerations are there, particularly wrt build quality (keyboard, frame, clamshell, etc.?).

[dr_st]

What I seem to be picking up on is that people stay with the T60s and Frankenpads mainly for 2 reasons. First and foremost, because they are stuck on 4:3 screens, and secondly because of love of old-school "classic" IBM build quality.

I would say that it's most specifically the Flexview (IPS, wide viewing angles, great colors, great contrast) screens available on the T60/p 15" units, and not on any of the T61/Tx00/x10/x20 series. As far as "build quality", it's more of a "perception of build quality". All things averaged out, there was no decline in build quality post T60. Oldschool design, though, is a different manner.

This may be blaspheming, but if I am really honest, I do like the 4:3, but I am not married to it. It is my understanding that, moving forward through T61s and even T400/500 that (at least some of) the widescreens available were 16:10 ratio? I could possibly be OK with that. 16:9 however is where I draw the line, no way Jose!

IMO it's silly to "draw the line" at 16:9. The change in aspect ratio is bigger going from 4:3 to 8:5 than 8:5 to 16:9. Depending on actual screen size and resolution, screens of every aspect ratio can be useful/useless.

Also, going back to build quality of the "classics", at what point did Lenovo really start messing things up? lol I hear chicklet keyboards didn't start until after the 400/500 series? What other considerations are there, particularly wrt build quality (keyboard, frame, clamshell, etc.?).

Depending who you ask.

Once again, as far as build quality is concerned, there is no visible decline in newer Lenovo models compared to older Lenovo or even IBM models. Every model/generation may have advantages and weak spots, but on average - there is no trend either way.

Most of the traditionalists here, and yours truly among them, complain about the design changes that started with the Tx30 series - massive changes to keyboard layout were the first step. Followed by elimination of physical trackpoint buttons, even more keyboard changes, and a few other things - Lenovo is clearly taking a different direction with the Thinkpads. Some like it, some don't.

[Medessec]

The biggest reason that people build the Frankenpad, in brief: is to pair the the T60's 15" Flexview IPS with the T61's fantastic hardware, NVIDIA graphics, and SATA 2 for SSD speed.

The build quality and aesthetic of the T60 compared to newer Thinkpads isn't as much of a reason, people who really care for that will actually compromise everything and get a T43p. The T400/T500/W500, which are a generation further above the T61, actually maintain the build quality and aesthetic of the T61 and T60 fairly well. Other than being only widescreen, they don't change much. Except the Thinklight is a bit shoddy(you can see the cable through the hole they put for the Thinklight, which makes you worry that weather and dirt can get in there, etc.)

When it comes to aspect ratios, it's really a matter of how much you need it. Some people on here have used 4:3 laptops for the longest time, and have grown to find it extremely comfortable. In my opinion, 4:3 is strictly a productivity aspect ratio, 16:10 is a good compromise, and 16:9 is an abomination. You can agree with me there, but if you still favor a reasonably mobile productivity machine, then a W500 is probably for you. But if you really like the idea of a 4:3 breeze machine, then you might want to consider the Frankenpad.

Before proceeding with a Frankenpad, make sure: Are you sure you need a Flexview? If you do alright on a 1400x1050 14" screen, then a 14" 4:3 T61 with that screen will be fine. Do you not want to deal with the NVIDIA problems, or go through the effort of a motherboard swap and modification? Then you could probably settle okay on a 15" 4:3 T60p. But if you want the absolute best 4:3 laptop you can get, and you feel confident doing a Frankenpad mod, then we can go ahead.

With a Frankenpad, regardless of what route you take, you'll be taking a T61 14" 4:3 motherboard and putting it in a T60 15" 4:3 chassis. It's best to get the full T60 and T61 laptops, so you know both have been known to be fully operational, and all the parts are there. Then you can choose if you want to compromise and take the easy route: You can get an Intel-graphics only T61 planar, which will negate the NVIDIA issue, so you don't have to deal with it. It will mean no discrete graphics on the go. OR, you can take the high road and hunt down a good NVIDIA planar. Remember that all standard, all-original T61 4:3 laptops were made before the magic 08/08 date stamp, so every all-original T61 4:3 is destined to die at some point. You can prod forum member TuuS, as he's done all the hard work for you and he can sell you a board that he's tested. But when shopping- note there's two different graphics cards: the Quadro FX 570M, and the NVS 140M which is the same, just a bit less powerful.

[schen]

IMO, dr_st did a superb job of explaining the differences both in perception and reality. However, I'll throw my .05 in there anyway. My experience with ThinkPads go back to the 760, and 701, with the newest thing that I have regular interaction with being the L420 that is issued by my school district. In between, I've owned, or "worked on" just about every model produced.

I really do think that the "build quality" or "change" in it has been overblown. Do I like the design movement away from the "interlocking" lid with latches, or the "chilet/island" keyboard? Absolutely not. However, I work on computers on virtually a daily basis and given the nature of my business, they range from consumer HPs/Toshibas, all the way to corporate Dells, and I'd say that ThinkPads are still at or near the top. That's largely because, it's ThinkPad and it matters to them to keep the image. The bought that brand for a reason. The fact is that the margins now are so thin, that there's not a ton of room to work with in product design. There aren't any secrets in today's production world. It's not the old days with the ThinkPad 600 competing against the early Post-TI Acers. We don't pay $4000-5000 of Y2K money to buy a T20! High end products cost $2000-2500 of 2014 dollars.

At the end of the day, I use T6x era machines, because they are a nice combination of old build quality AND still very decent capability when configured properly (eg. 4+Gb of RAM, SSD, and a clean load of W7).

[TRS-80]

Before proceeding with a Frankenpad, make sure: Are you sure you need a Flexview? If you do alright on a 1400x1050 14" screen, then a 14" 4:3 T61 with that screen will be fine. Do you not want to deal with the NVIDIA problems, or go through the effort of a motherboard swap and modification? Then you could probably settle okay on a 15" 4:3 T60p. But if you want the absolute best 4:3 laptop you can get, and you feel confident doing a Frankenpad mod, then we can go ahead.

I think you are really asking the right question here. And ha! My R51 is actually only 14.1" XGA (1024x768) which is pretty bad. But I use those in the trucks because of their durability and very low cost. But for my personal use, I would like something a little nicer, although I may be able to live without going all the way up to FlexView. To be perfectly honest, my main desktop is only 19" 1400x900 (16:10) but that seems pretty alright to me. Already I need to zoom in some times in the browser if I am sitting too far back in my chair from the screen, reading in a more relaxed posture. So I am thinking 1400x1050 on a 15" screen might be OK for me, especially given that I would generally be sitting closer to it. The only thing I am pretty certain of is that I'm pretty sure I want a 15" screen though, for the additional real estate. 14.1" is pretty dang small. How much resolution though, and aspect ratio, I'm not so sure on however.

A thought that had crossed my mind, was that if I went up to a FlexView, that I may spoil myself so much as to make working on the 14.1" XGAs on those days I am out on the crew, unbearable! ha! Just kidding (sort of)!

Getting into all the specifics of what needs to be done if pursuing the Frankenpad route makes my head swim with too much detail, for now. And I am capable (even would enjoy) the "project" aspect of it, should that be necessary. Ultimately I may decide go that route, but I would like to get a couple other nagging "higher level" (perhaps "dumb" to a group so knowledgeable) questions out of the way first. So let's shelve the Frankenpad discussion for a moment (although I am very glad to be in such company of those so knowledgeable in such things, if/when I do decide to go that route).

1.At what point were only 16:9s available? Looks like starting with T510? According to Thinkwiki, the T500 were the last with 16:10. Also I understand that these are not FlexView / IPS, and their quality (viewing angles / color / contrast) may be a little lower. My opinion is in line with Medessec, in that I believe 16:10 is not so bad, but 16:9 is an abomination.

2.At what point did SATA3 become available? I know this may be well newer than the range I am looking, I just have no idea. Sorry for such a basic / dumb question.

3.But last and certainly not least (in fact, quite the opposite), cost is a consideration. If I am completely honest, perhaps the most important consideration, even! I am a poor landscaper! This may help you guys steer me in the proper direction more than anything. So I am not looking to spend an arm and a leg here. I have heard all sorts of price ranges on FlexView screens. Some of these prices I think are out of date, I seem to have read somewhere that some prices have really come down, but I am really unsure in this area.

Also, I think I need to really look at a FlexView, some T60/60p/61s, and/or a 16x10 T500, and some of these other models I am considering, in person. Especially the screens. Not sure how I can do that, other than finding some locally on CL and meeting the people and fondling (well, maybe more like oogling) the screens in person...

[RealBlackStuff]

The 16:10 machines were: all the widescreen models of T6x/R6x/Z6x series,
followed by T400/T410/T500/R500 and the WXGA (1280x800) versions of X200/X201.
Anything after that unfortunately is a 16:9.

[schen]

1.At what point were only 16:9s available? Looks like starting with T510? According to Thinkwiki, the T500 were the last with 16:10. Also I understand that these are not FlexView / IPS, and their quality (viewing angles / color / contrast) may be a little lower. My opinion is in line with Medessec, in that I believe 16:10 is not so bad, but 16:9 is an abomination.

2.At what point did SATA3 become available? I know this may be well newer than the range I am looking, I just have no idea. Sorry for such a basic / dumb question.

3.But last and certainly not least (in fact, quite the opposite), cost is a consideration. If I am completely honest, perhaps the most important consideration, even! I am a poor landscaper! This may help you guys steer me in the proper direction more than anything. So I am not looking to spend an arm and a leg here. I have heard all sorts of price ranges on FlexView screens. Some of these prices I think are out of date, I seem to have read somewhere that some prices have really come down, but I am really unsure in this area.

Also, I think I need to really look at a FlexView, some T60/60p/61s, and/or a 16x10 T500, and some of these other models I am considering, in person. Especially the screens. Not sure how I can do that, other than finding some locally on CL and meeting the people and fondling (well, maybe more like oogling) the screens in person...

I'll deal with areas that I have specific thoughts on here and leave the other ones for others to answer.

1. I don't have strong opinions on the 4:3, 16:9, 16:10 issue. I use them all and find that they all have strengths and weaknesses depending on what you are doing with them.

2. SATA 3 is pretty new, arriving around the time of the "Core" (eg. i3/i5/i7) machines so it's probably not relevant to where you are looking in the model line. Even my wife's T500 which is our newest machine doesn't have it. I'd say that they show up around the era of the non-"classic" TPs, x20/x30. For what most people do with notebooks, stuff an SSD in a decent machine, you'll probably not care at all. I recently just moved my desktop to a Z77 chipset mobo that has SATA-3 and that's when I finally moved to a drive of that spec.

3. Amazingly, cost isn't as big of a consideration as you might think it is.... if you are patient. Yes, people are going to try and charge more for IPS screen, but that's as much because they are usually attached to higher end machines, vs. the low-res/low-spec panels on something with integrated graphics. You'll find that if you spend lots of time looking, you'll find all manner of really nice stuff for a ridiculously low price because that person either doesn't know what they are doing or just doesn't care. This is especially the case with CL where I've picked up "p" spec machines any number of times from people who don't know that there's a difference between it and the "regular" models.

Overall, I'd say that I'm relatively panel-agnostic. I know the difference. I can tell the difference. I just am in a situation where I've learned to use them all and live with it. I must say that I really disliked the panel on my X300, but feel that it was significantly improved on the X301. I didn't hate it enough to not use it, since I really love that form-factor. When I have my druthers, I use my desktop workstation like I am right now. It has 3 screens, two of which are Lenovo ThinkVision L220x S-PVA panels. They are excellent and high density at 1920 x 1200 on 22". The third is a low-end Westinghouse LCD TV which is used as a computer screen when I'm not watching TV on it. It's not as nice as the L220xs, but it does it's job. It too has a higher than normal density at 1440 x 900 in 19". That's kind of my thing. I want lots of real estate in a relatively compact size. Others have their "things" too. I suspect you'll find what works for you as well. You'll just need to take lots of time and look so you'll find what you want.

[TRS-80]

Alright, so sounds like SATA3 is out, for now. A quick glance on eBay for Core i5/7 based Thinkpads look like they are currently running $300-500, which is out of the budget of what I want to spend at the moment. I had suspected as much, thanks for confirming. Maybe later, when I have built the business back up a bit...

3. Amazingly, cost isn't as big of a consideration as you might think it is.... if you are patient. Yes, people are going to try and charge more for IPS screen, but that's as much because they are usually attached to higher end machines, vs. the low-res/low-spec panels on something with integrated graphics. You'll find that if you spend lots of time looking, you'll find all manner of really nice stuff for a ridiculously low price because that person either doesn't know what they are doing or just doesn't care. This is especially the case with CL where I've picked up "p" spec machines any number of times from people who don't know that there's a difference between it and the "regular" models.

Yeah, now you are getting right into my wheelhouse! I am patient and love to find "good deals." In fact, that is a lot of the fun of it for me. Therefore I want to educate myself on what's what, so that I can start monitoring / scouring CL and eBay (and maybe a thrift store, garage sale, etc.) for some components of (or a complete) whatever I am looking for. Hence my research here first. It has worked well for me in my search for T4x/R5x machines, already bearing fruit, now that I know what I'm looking for in those. Now, looking to do the same in a T6x(p) or T500 or whatever.

Incidentally, what is the difference in "p" spec machines? Better specs? Better screens? Particularly in the T60/61 (and T400, 410, 500s if they made a "p" variant of any of those?)?

I guess the way forward is to really decide on what sort of screen (aspect ratio, resolution) I am looking for. And particularly whether I need/want FlexView or not. I think I will look on CL and try and maybe look at some of these in person.

Alright, 2 questions at this point I guess:

1.a.Just for arguments sake, what do you guys think all the parts would run me to put together a Frankenpad? I know someone here in the Marketplace sells "kits" I suppose I will have a look at those. But how much are we talking here?

1.b.How much are T400/410/500s going for currently?

2.What (if any) are the technological advances I would be availing myself of by deciding to move "up" to a T400/410/500, instead of a T61(p)? I guess balancing those consideration(s, if any) vs. "how badly I want a FlexView" will lead me to my answer of a choice between them.

[TRS-80]

OK, looks like T400 are out, only 14.1" screens (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T400)
T410 also out, same reason, only 14.1" screens (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T410)

Unless above info is incorrect? I really want a 15" screen, of that much I am sure.

So, looks like I am down to either T500 (15" available in WXGA (1280x800), WSXGA (1440x900), or WSXGA+ (1680x1050) which are all 16:10) or T60/61/Frankenpad. Is that about the size of it? Or am I missing something here?

If I am on the right path here, I can do my own pricing search, as the options would be really narrowed down now.

Still interested in answering above questions, well particularly #2 (tech advances in T500 over T60/61).

EDIT: corrected some errors on screen resolutions on T500s

[schen]

Incidentally, what is the difference in "p" spec machines? Better specs? Better screens? Particularly in the T60/61 (and T400, 410, 500s if they made a "p" variant of any of those?)?

Alright, 2 questions at this point I guess:

1.a.Just for arguments sake, what do you guys think all the parts would run me to put together a Frankenpad? I know someone here in the Marketplace sells "kits" I suppose I will have a look at those. But how much are we talking here?

1.b.How much are T400/410/500s going for currently?

2.What (if any) are the technological advances I would be availing myself of by deciding to move "up" to a T400/410/500, instead of a T61(p)? I guess balancing those consideration(s, if any) vs. "how badly I want a FlexView" will lead me to my answer of a choice between them.

"P" spec machines go back to the "T & A" (if you'll pardon the pun) generation. They represented the top models that were "mobile workstations" of there era. As such, the generally had not only higher end graphics subsystems, but also high-res LCD panels to match. Typically the 15.1" versions were IPS 1600 x 1200. The 14.1" versions were NOT IPS, but nicer panels of 1400 x 1050 resolution. The "Ts" leaned toward the mobile end, whereas the "As" leaned more toward the workstation end. The original A31p was a wonder to behold with 2 swappable bays as well as the hard disk drive! When mounted on the "full dock", they were amazingly versatile and as configured would go on to Space Shuttle fame. I carried T2x, then on to the T4xp for a number of years because I traveled a fair amount and like the smaller size. Later the "A" series was eliminated and the "Ts" got a 15" version that would go on though the T60p and T61p. At that point, Lenovo had taken over and decided to split off the workstation models into the "Ws", that that's a different story. Ajkula66 (aka George) is basically the resident expert on the "ps", especially the "A" Series machines, although many of us loved them dearly. I still have 3!

1. I'll leave the Frankenpad discussion to the many who've done it.

1.b. I don't know about Florida, but I've picked up 2 T500s in the last 3 months at $125 and $100 apiece. Fully working with adapters, etc. Both with the higher end ATI switchable GPU and WSXGA screens. My wife is on one right now. It has a 256Gb OEM Samsung SSD, and 6Gb of RAM.

2. You're right; it depends on how you are valuing the IPS screen. I made the switch on my wife's machine (T61 to T500), so I could get her on more RAM, cheaper (DDR3 vs. DDR2), and a generation newer for less than I sold her machine for locally. It was an absolute no-brainer. She like the big wide screen. She's also a teacher and often keeps two windows open side by side, plus she's a big Excel user. So for her, the wide-screen was a good thing. Forgive the analogy; for many, the IPS thing is a religious experience. They experience it and it becomes a very important item to them. I'm not mocking them. It's just the way of their "experience" with it. You'll have to see to tell if you are a "true believer". I like them a lot, but can live without it pretty well. If you find a T43, or T60 with a Flexview screen and you LOVE IT, then you are a FrankenPad candidate. I might actually do it with my T60p, but then I might not. I however, worship at the temple of the Ultra-portables. First it was the 701, then the 600, all the "Ts", then all the "X"s, X300, and now X301.