Thinkpads Forum

Theokretes wrote:

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Don't feed the troll

In what way is that "trolling"?

Because this:

Theokretes wrote:I can run skype on my Pentium 1 at 233 Mhz running windows 98 and browse any webpage with opera on it. You do not need a powerful computer to do that stuff.

..is complete nonsense. Period.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Because this:

Theokretes wrote:I can run skype on my Pentium 1 at 233 Mhz running windows 98 and browse any webpage with opera on it. You do not need a powerful computer to do that stuff.

..is complete nonsense. Period.

It's actually not nonsense, I *have* browsed every page I could think of with that machine, also for curiosity. And they all loaded. Unfortunately upon going to youtube, videos would only play a few seconds of audio before crashing out-- due to the fact the flash drivers that are compatible with windows 98, are not compatible with new versions of opera. Oh well...
Facebook worked fine, but what's that saying, it's a rather light website.

It was an extreme example to prove the point that you don't *need* something more powerful than that. Is it optimal? Not really... youtube doesn't work because of the old operating system for instance. But the webpage still loads and tries to work

And when I said "You do not need a powerful computer to do that stuff", I did not mean to use a Pentium 1 for all of your web browsing. I would not recommend it because it was a highly experimental procedure to see how far I could go with an old computer.

At any rate, an old T60 is still perfectly fine for today, the main limitation is the old FireGL really. Still OK for CAD if you're into that sort of thing.

Theokretes wrote:I can run skype on my Pentium 1 at 233 Mhz running windows 98 and browse any webpage with opera on it. You do not need a powerful computer to do that stuff.....Unfortunately upon going to youtube, videos would only play a few seconds of audio before crashing out-- due to the fact the flash drivers that are compatible with windows 98, are not compatible with new versions of opera.

In conclusion, you do need a more powerful computer to do that stuff. "You don't need a fast computer to browse the internet" is a saying that started back in the 1990s, and is now extremely outdated. Most web sites used to be just plain text, but that's no longer true, with Craigslist being the only exception that I know of. Another two-decade-old saying is "the best way to speed up a computer is adding RAM". Nowadays, the best way to speed up a computer is upgrading to an SSD. Both are now myths, and yet many people still keep perpetuating them.

Anyway, I think a T60 is still adequate for the majority of things that people use their computers for. However, I believe all T60's had Windows XP COA stickers, and if one needs to spend extra money to upgrade to Vista or newer, I think it would be smarter to go for a T61 that already has a Vista COA. Oh, this reminds me of yet another outdated myth: "Vista is crap". Yes, it was, but no, it isn't any more. It's the second most stable version of Windows ever, right behind 8. I am so glad XP is finally done (TOMORROW!).

pianowizard wrote:
However, I believe all T60's had Windows XP COA stickers, and if one needs to spend extra money to upgrade to Vista or newer, I think it would be smarter to go for a T61 that already has a Vista COA. Oh, this reminds me of yet another outdated myth: "Vista is crap". Yes, it was, but no, it isn't any more. It's the second most stable version of Windows ever, right behind 8. I am so glad XP is finally done (TOMORROW!).

Actually, a bunch of later T60/p units were shipped with Vista Business COA. I've owned a few.

Funny enough, some of the T60 machines were sold with W2K...would love to get my hands on a recovery disk set for those.

Indeed many of the C2D refresh models (T60/R60/X60/Z61) had Vista COA. My 2007-QPG is one of them.

ajkula66 wrote:Funny enough, some of the T60 machines were sold with W2K...would love to get my hands on a recovery disk set for those.

I see no mention of this anywhere, not in HMM or Lenovo's site. So, I'm assuming some crazy CTO option.
Would you have a FRU for it?

ajkula66 wrote:Actually, a bunch of later T60/p units were shipped with Vista Business COA. I've owned a few.

That's most interesting! But even though these probably have Core2 Duo, they may still be a bit underpowered to run Vista smoothly. On a computer with low-end Core2 Duo, Vista is noticeably slower than both XP and 7. IMO, it takes mid-range and high-end Core2 processors to run Vista well.

pianowizard wrote:That's most interesting! But even though these probably have Core2 Duo, they may still be a bit underpowered to run Vista smoothly. On a computer with low-end Core2 Duo, Vista is noticeably slower than both XP and 7. IMO, it takes mid-range and high-end Core2 processors to run Vista well.

T7200 and higher should probably be fine. My wife's X61 has a T8100 and we recently installed Vista on it. Runs OK (Indexer disabled).

But I confess I never tried Vista on my T60. Back then I sort of felt safer sticking with XP, and since I never reinstall operating systems on my personal computers, it still has it, and probably always will.

pianowizard wrote:
That's most interesting! But even though these probably have Core2 Duo, they may still be a bit underpowered to run Vista smoothly. On a computer with low-end Core2 Duo, Vista is noticeably slower than both XP and 7. IMO, it takes mid-range and high-end Core2 processors to run Vista well.

I've got something for you, Mr. Vista Fan...

In the bunch of T61/p machines that I recently picked up, there is one with a *virgin* Vista Business install, never ever updated...the laptop has quite obviously seen minimal - if any - use. I'm going to run it for a few days "as-is" and then update the OS to observe the difference in behaviour...

PowerPC wrote:
I see no mention of this anywhere, not in HMM or Lenovo's site. So, I'm assuming some crazy CTO option.
Would you have a FRU for it?

I'll try to dig out the data for you and post it here...

I'm going to run it for a few days "as-is" and then update the OS to observe the difference in behaviour...

I would love to hear back from this... Vista is one of the most interesting spots in Microsoft's history in my opinion... with UAC being extremely harsh on users, and other user limitations to prevent security issues that were rampant in XP. And there was a rile from people who thought Vista had too high of system requirements to run...

It'd be interesting to see how a T60 copes with vanilla Vista, and the later versions that have been molded by people's complaints.

ajkula66 wrote:

pianowizard wrote:
That's most interesting! But even though these probably have Core2 Duo, they may still be a bit underpowered to run Vista smoothly. On a computer with low-end Core2 Duo, Vista is noticeably slower than both XP and 7. IMO, it takes mid-range and high-end Core2 processors to run Vista well.

I've got something for you, Mr. Vista Fan...

In the bunch of T61/p machines that I recently picked up, there is one with a *virgin* Vista Business install, never ever updated...the laptop has quite obviously seen minimal - if any - use. I'm going to run it for a few days "as-is" and then update the OS to observe the difference in behaviour...
[...]

A T60? Or a T61(p)? T61's with Vista aren't rare.

By the way: does it BSOD when you shake it while on battery? My T61 was preloaded with Vista business and beta drivers. On battery it would more often than not BSOD when you got the HDD gyro sensor to feel something...

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: A T60? Or a T61(p)? T61's with Vista aren't rare.

It's a T61. I know that Vista was run-of-the-mill on them, but I haven't seen one where the original preload wasn't touched in years.

By the way: does it BSOD when you shake it while on battery? My T61 was preloaded with Vista business and beta drivers. On battery it would more often than not BSOD when you got the HDD gyro sensor to feel something...

So it's shaken, not stirred? I'll let you know...Mr. Bond...

pianowizard wrote: In conclusion, you do need a more powerful computer to do that stuff. "You don't need a fast computer to browse the internet" is a saying that started back in the 1990s, and is now extremely outdated. Most web sites used to be just plain text, but that's no longer true, with Craigslist being the only exception that I know of. Another two-decade-old saying is "the best way to speed up a computer is adding RAM". Nowadays, the best way to speed up a computer is upgrading to an SSD. Both are now myths, and yet many people still keep perpetuating them.

Anyway, I think a T60 is still adequate for the majority of things that people use their computers for. However, I believe all T60's had Windows XP COA stickers, and if one needs to spend extra money to upgrade to Vista or newer, I think it would be smarter to go for a T61 that already has a Vista COA. Oh, this reminds me of yet another outdated myth: "Vista is crap". Yes, it was, but no, it isn't any more. It's the second most stable version of Windows ever, right behind 8. I am so glad XP is finally done (TOMORROW!).

Again the point is being missed slightly, my main inference is that a T60 is far more capable that 'basic web browsing'. I see that my experiment with opening modern websites on old hardware isn't very well understood in lieu of multiple explanations, so we'll move along.

XP always was a very poor operating system. Vista was miles ahead-- and it actually has features not found in windows 7: including the MIDI mapper, and the ability to uninstall multiple applications at once without having annoying messages forcefully preventing you from doing so. Once Vista is tweaked, updated, and ran on a good HDD, there are no issues.

So, radiator... have you bought a cheap T60 already?

For me to chime in, T60 w/ T2500 CPU, FireGL V5200 GPU does enough for basic web-browsing and the occasional video.
2GB of ram and Win 7 is enough for me to do deeds, a good battery lasts little over 3 hours under my use.

I recommend a T60 so much to everyone it seems that I am repeating myself.
I'll need to get a Z61 someday.

Any ATI T60 works very well, even for light gaming as well(older 3D games, DirectDraw 2D games) and projects(video editing, photoshop). A T60 would make a great middle-schooler's or other young student's laptop. Even Intel ones fare pretty well, and they'll usually also be extremely reliable in reasonable conditions.

Z-series are alright. The Z60s have too old of hardware in my opinion, but the Z61s are still pretty usable due to having the same generation hardware as T60s. But they go for about the same as T60s, and they're widescreen. I figure if you're going to be buying hardware that old and cheap, you might as well get the 4:3 aspect ratio screen... However, Z-series is 16:10, so it still isn't half bad. The Z61t with Intel graphics is probably the nicest practical Z-series to own. It's really indisputable that the Z61p is the best Z-series, period, but they're quite rare it turns out, and they have most of the same hardware as the T60p(T7200/T7400/T7600, FireGL V5200, annoying 3.5GB RAM BIOS/mobo limit) other than the incredible 1920x1200 screen, the first WUXGA ever from the Thinkpad line I believe.

I just managed to find a really cruddy T60 for $30, so when I get it, I'll see if I have a T5500 handy to put in it, and report back. I may also have to get a good T60 battery... all of mine have a lot of wear on them.

I like the Z61t as well. I admit that it hasn't aged as well, though, due to having the same 3GB/SATA1 limits as T60, but also less expansion options because of CardBus and no ExpressCard.

For desktop solutions, one should only consider the Napa Refresh Z61t models (the ones that came with stock Core 2 Duo CPUs), as they are the only ones that can output DVI through the mini-dock.