Overheat Issues on Two T60p Machines

[ArtShapiro]

I've written a couple times over the past two or three years about both of my T60p machines.

They're routinely overheating to the point of shutting down.

Both have SSDs; one is a T7200 UXGA resolution, and the other a T7600 SXGA+ machine.

On Tuesday, the SXGA machine shut down three times, once when updating the Symantec Endpoint Protection definitions, and twice when trying to deal with the Patch Tuesday updates. I caught it a couple more times when TPFanControl showed the CPU getting to 95 degrees, and was able to pull the AC in time - it instantly runs a lot cooler on battery.

I generally can't watch videos on either machine, as the temp will quickly rise into the 90s. Shutdown usually occurs around 96 or 97, although it once reached 102 and stayed up.

It's been suggested that I check the thermal compound. They're both using a thin ply of Arctic Silver, and I believe the heat is being efficiently transferred to the heatsink, judging from the very hot air being blown out the side. The air gets VERY warm.

I rarely take them out of the house, as they're simply too unreliable to trust elsewhere. Consequently, I use my R61 most of the time.

My inclination at this point is to put one under each rear wheel of my car and put them out of their misery - it will give me far more pleasure than the few bucks in parting them out. But I would love to undertstand what's causing such a huge heat problem on otherwise wonderful machines.

Art

[axur-delmeria]

It's been suggested that I check the thermal compound. They're both using a thin ply of Arctic Silver, and I believe the heat is being efficiently transferred to the heatsink, judging from the very hot air being blown out the side. The air gets VERY warm.

Don't simply believe. Check the heatsinks for dust buildup (clean as necessary), change the thermal compound, and see if it makes a difference.

[ArtShapiro]

Check the heatsinks for dust buildup (clean as necessary), change the thermal compound...

I should have been more clear that I had done so; the fan area is pristine on both and the AS was freshly re-installed on at least one of them within the past couple of months. I might have burnished the copper contact area with ultra-fine grit sandpaper, but can't absolutely attest to it.

[theterminator93]

What's the fan setting at temp? I always set up the smart control for my fans to 64 in TPFC for max. rpm. over 65C. Also look up IBM_ECW to undervolt your CPU (my T9500 in my T61p is stable at 1.05v running full load/speed). Depending on load it'll peak into the low-mid 70s, stays in the sub-60 range during most tasks though...

What do you idle at? Fan speed?

PS - don't crush them if you decide you've had enough... I'd happily take one of them off your hands for the right price.

[MrMaguire]

Have these laptops both had CPU upgrades? What exactly did you do with the heatsink(s)?

[ArtShapiro]

Correct. As stated, one T7200 and one T7600. I'm using the stock heatsink, which I understood to be reasonable.

With respect to the other query: I just fired one up, and it seemed to idle at about 2900 RPM. After it updated virus definitions, it's idling at just under 3500 RPM, with no overheating issues. As I have never seen any guidance on changing the settings in the appropriate ini file, I believe they're pretty much stock settings for TPFanControl.

It's backing up to my Windows Home Server right now, and the temps are being unusually cooperative: 59°. It's having a good day. Haven't turned on the other one today.

Art

[theterminator93]

Depending on the version of TPFC, look for an "edit tpfancontrol.ini" link in the program folder. It launches an administrative instance of Notepad with access to save to the program directory.

Here is what the settings look like for my T420...

Level=50 0 // Level=140 0
Level=55 1 // Level=150 1
Level=60 3 // Level=165 3
Level=65 7 // Level=175 7
Level=70 64 // Level=195 64

[ArtShapiro]

Can you briefly cite what those values do, or refer me to documentation? I'm happy to make the change, but it is always nice to understand what one is doing.

I still believe the problem is that the system is simply generating more heat than it should.

Art

[ArtShapiro]

As a followup to the above, my ini file shows two sets of values. So I'm confused as to which I should change.

Art


MenuLabelSM1=Smart Mode 1/ Label for Icon Menu, must be terminated by '/'

Level=60 0 // Level=140 0
Level=65 1 // Level=150 1
Level=75 3 // Level=165 3
Level=80 7 // Level=175 7
Level=90 64 // Level=195 64

// optional 2nd profile "Smart Mode 2", switched by icon menue
// change values and number of items for your needs
// to deactivate, insert leading '//' into following lines

MenuLabelSM2=Smart Mode 2/ Label for Icon Menu, must be terminated by '/'

Level2=22 0 // Level2=70 0
Level2=33 1 // Level2=90 1
Level2=38 2 // Level2=100 2
Level2=44 3 // Level2=110 3
Level2=55 7 // Level2=130 7
Level2=66 64 // Level2=150 64
Level2=77 128 // Level2=170 128

[theterminator93]

level=xx y

xx is the temperature being passed in degrees C at which the fan setting "y" is engaged. Setting 0 is off, 1 is low, 3 is medium (some TPs have a 5 medium-high), and 7 is high. 64 is an "extreme unsupported" fan speed that revs the fan much faster than the normal 7 high - 7 might be 3400 RPM; 64 might be 5500. If you go from level=50 0 to level=55 1, the fan will turn on to low. If you get down to 50, it will turn off. You can tweak the temp values up or down for each fan speed setting to suit your particular tastes.

Smart level 2 is an alternate mode. I typically don't use it. I set my fan speeds higher at lower temps than what BIOS or 'stock smart' values call for. IMHO, a little extra noise and having to clean dust out a little more frequently is a small price to pay for lower temps (I attribute this behavior as the reason behind why my two "defective" T61p boards still live on).

Settings on my T61p are geared a little more towards running cooler than my T420.

Level=45 0 // Level=140 0
Level=50 1 // Level=150 1
Level=55 3 // Level=165 3
Level=60 7 // Level=175 7
Level=65 64 // Level=195 64

I also highly recommend experimenting with undervolting the CPU in IBM_ECW if you still can't get your temps under control this way. The T61p would peak well into the mid-upper 70s (even with full 64 fan engaged) prior to undervolting. Now it stays closer to 70.

[ArtShapiro]

Appreciate the concise and clear answer!

I'll make the change later (wanna go out to eat) or tomorrow. But as I routinely am over 77, wouldn't it be academic at that point, as the fan oughta be going full-tilt? Again, there's plenty of VERY hot air being pumped out the side as it gets up into the 90s.

Art

[theterminator93]

Setting 128 is handing fan control back over to BIOS, so fan speed would do back down to level 7 at that point most likely (assuming smart mode 2). If you're in smart mode 1, you're only on fan setting 3, definitely too slow a fan speed for temps that hot IMO.

Also check some of the other settings in the .ini file. There are settings for determining which mode to default to when the program starts, as well as actions to take if the temps exceed a certain level.

[GACrabill]

Again, there's plenty of VERY hot air being pumped out the side as it gets up into the 90s.

I recently had the same symptoms on my T60 ... and my TPFC settings were already set appropriately. I got tired of the heat and the constantly running fan (which seemed to be a little noisy at times). I knew that oiling the fan would also require re-applying thermal compound so I planned to do both. I am convinced that my original application of AS5 to the T7200 was actually too thin. Everything runs fine now that I purposely tried to get the layer of AS5 to be a little thicker than it had been.

[ch27]

Do you have Power Manager set to 'Power Source Optimized' with cpu set to 'Adaptive'?

[ArtShapiro]

I was composing a listing of my fairly-aggressive INI file on one of them, and it overheated and shut down with nothing else running but the browser.

Let's just say it set the level to 64 at 80 degrees, and then backwards from 5 at five-degree increments from 75 on down. So I never see the fan below 3.

Windows 10 has a nice task manager that shows the CPU speed. I have them both set for max battery life on battery, which seems to keep the speed about 0.96 GHz and never gets the machine over about 65 degrees.

On AC, I've noticed that if the CPU isn't heavily taxed, it stays at .96 GHz and the temperature stays sane. But as soon as the processor ramps up, the temperature SOARS into the 90s. If I'm quick, I just pull the AC and within a couple seconds it's down to 70-75 degrees and soon is back in the 60s. If I'm not quick, or fail to notice the rapid spike in CPU temp, the machine overheats and shuts down.

Just to do tonight's backup to Windows Home Server took jockeying the machine from AC to battery numerous times.

This is really unacceptable. I live about 10 miles from the ocean and the Laguna Beach pier or the San Clemente pier are looking more and more appropriate for these machines. (I've had a hankering for a W7xx anyway!)

Art

[GACrabill]

I was composing a listing of my fairly-aggressive INI file on one of them, and it overheated and shut down with nothing else running but the browser.

Think about this problem logically ... if simply running a browser (and no malware or other CPU consuming tasks according to Task Manager) causes it to overheat, then your heatsink/fan assembly is not doing its job ... an aggressive TPFC .INI file will not solve the problem.

Fix the fan or re-apply the thermal paste are the only solutions that make sense logically.

[ch27]

Is the GPU still using the thermal pad or did you replace that as well?

[theterminator93]

Quite curious. If the heat sink and fan is free of dust, the fan is spinning up to RPM, you feel airflow... I wonder if the heat sink is damaged and not seating against the core die properly. Might be worth a shot to R&R it with a close inspection.

[brchan]

What heatsinks are in the systems? There are 2 different ones. One is designed for Intel graphics, the other for NVIDIA dedicated graphics. Using an intel heatsink on a board with dedicated graphics will most likely overheat.

Also, how are you applying the thermal paste? Do you apply it like in this article http://www.maximumpc.com/article/howtos ... rmal_paste? Lastly, make sure the heatsink is properly set and that the screws are the correct type. It helps to tighten the screws in a diagonal fashion to ensure proper fitment. That is: top left, bottom right, bottom left, top right.

[ArtShapiro]

I'll try and answer a few replies (and thank you all!).

The machine might not have been totally idle when it shut down last night. It hit me in the middle of the night that it might have been downloading the new Windows 10 prerelease. I had installed that software on two machines (one T60p, and one virtual machine unrelated to this thread) and had problems with both. So I'd reverted the T60p via Windows Home Server. Most likely it was trying to re-download that new prerelease. It makes sense, and that might well explain the sudden load on the processor. I've brought it to work, where I'm typing this, and will fire it up in a couple of minutes to more closely observe what it's doing.

I have no problems with the GPU temps, if we can believe TPF. I believe I'm well-versed in proper application of a THIN layer of Arctic Silver, following the detailed instructions on the AS website, and in securely tightening the heatsink given the size of the screws.

And these are the heatsinks that came with the two machines. I don't believe I've bent or otherwise abused them. They're pumping plenty of hot air out the vents of the machine sides.

[theterminator93]

About the last thing I can think of at this point is to undervolt the CPU from IBM_ECW (found here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=105203).

[ArtShapiro]

About the last thing I can think of at this point is to undervolt the CPU

Thanks, I'll read up on that utility.

Right now the machine shut down ON BATTERY when trying to install that just-downloaded Win10 update. I let it cool a few minutes, came up, and Windows realized that it had had a problem and thus reverted to the old version. I'm somewhat surprised / impressed that it could successfully deal with an interrupted major update.

I might put the machine in the freezer down the hall and try the update again on battery.

Art

[axur-delmeria]

Has anyone considered heatpipe failure as a possible cause?

[ArtShapiro]

Has anyone considered heatpipe failure as a possible cause?

That's an interesting idea (although on two machines???). If I purchase a replacement heatsink, is there something "better" than stock T60p units?

Right now I changed the BIOS to set power to Max Battery for AC. And I'm retrying the update. It has stayed between 69 and 72 degrees for a half hour, although running rather slowly. The CPU has varied between 0.96 and 0.98 GHz on this 2.33 GHz T7600.

Art

[brchan]

A T500 heatsink, or even better, a W500 heatsink, will fit and work much better than the stock T60 fan.

[MrMaguire]

Something leads me to believe that this may be a software issue. Have you tried running some other operating system on the two machines and seeing how they behave?

[theterminator93]

The TDP of the CPU doesn't change unless you change the voltage or frequency - software not withstanding. You might be able to get a lower idle temp/utilization, but max utilization won't change.

[axur-delmeria]

IMO once the common causes have been eliminated, more unusual possibilities need to be considered.

- heatpipe failure (already mentioned)
- Expired thermal paste
- electromigration of the CPU's silicon
- corrosion, or buildup of a layer non-conductive material on the copper surfaces of the heatsink (solution is to clean and polish the heatsink until it's shiny, with particular attention to the contact plates and all the cooling fins.

[ajkula66]

About the last thing I can think of at this point is to undervolt the CPU from IBM_ECW (found here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=105203).

The problem here is that these CPUs really can't be undervolted by any significant margin, unlike Pentium M or Core i ones.

Trying a different heatsink/fan would be my next course of action.

Good luck.

[thinkpadcollection]

I checked T500/W500 heatsink GPU/northbridge plate against T60 and T61, Both T60/T61 heatsinks have the correct spot for the rear spring clamp while T500/W500 does not have any spot for spring to press down for GPU side.

Also wish to change R61 heatsink using a compatible T60/T61 heatsink because the original heatsink has aluminum fins. Doable?

Cheers, thinkpadcollection