It's a Puzzlement: Frankenpad shutdown in Win 7

[Sudevan]

Like the King of Siam, I am in a bit of confusion.

I recently picked up a very nice T60p/T61 Frankenpad on eBay. The lid and plastic are 95% mint, no scratches or scuffs, except a tiny 1 mm nick on the lid. The screen is brand new Flexview SXGA+, it has a 256 GB Samsung SSD and an external Western Digital 750GB HD with Ultrabay adapter, a new Ultrabay battery, new 4C3924 motherboard, late Penryn, X9000 CPU, NV S140 Graphics, new 8GB RAM, dock and new keyboard, came with a fresh install of Win7 Pro 64 (could be Ultimate 64, not certain), and MS Office 2013. There is also a late production 3 antenna lid for the OEM Wireless n. The above details are from the seller's page and messages. I am not as knowledgeable about hardware as many of you, so if I have made a mistake, please correct me, or let me know. I did not think of noting the MTM number on the T60p chassis, since this is a Frankenpad, but I can find that out from the seller fairly quickly if needed.

When I received it, it looked gorgeous, the appearance was lovely and the screen was perfect. I started it up and everything went swimmingly until, while trying to play Youtube, the entire system just shut down, no lights at all, would not restart. So I used the trick I have heard about for doing static discharges (10 repeated presses of the power button with no power connection or battery present, then hold down the switch for 30 secs, and reinstall battery and power cable, then start) and this worked fine, and the computer was back in action. Shortly thereafter it shut down again, but before that there were some problems with speakers -- it did not produce sound very well, and this turned out to be a problem with a capacitor that was later rectified. I talked to the seller, sent it back and he replaced various components including the bad capacitor. He also checked the fan and heatsink, thinking the X9000 might be causing overheating. He reinstalled Win 7, and ran it continuously for three days without problems, then sent it back. I started it up at a different outlet, and after about an hour or so it shut down again in the middle of downloading MS Security Essentials. I revived it a third time, and then it worked for a while, although Windows 7 kept giving me some strange messages about security. It also downloaded 55 updates, which was strange because the seller had installed all of the updates just a couple days earlier. The next day, I installed Linux Mint 17, and it ran for five hours or so without problems. I also used a different power adapter, thinking that might help, and raised the computer up a bit for better airflow. The next day, I ran Linux again for about four hours, without a problem. Later, I switched to Win7 and in about an hour it shut down again. It only seems to crash in Win 7, never in Linux. The machine is back at the seller's now and he is going to replace most of the components and reinstall a new Win7 from a different disk. By the way,the seller has shown exemplary courtesy and is determined to make things work. But I thought a posting here would be useful, just in case others have encountered anything similar.

I am intrigued by this problem. Here is my logic, correct me if it is faulty: If it is purely a hardware glitch or malfunction, it should produce shutdowns in both Win7 and Linux with roughly equal frequency. In this case, I have not observed a shutdown in the two Linux sessions, each lasting four or five hours (I was doing web browsing and listening to Pandora, mostly, neither of which seems like an arduous task for this machine). But doing the same tasks, I have observed repeated crashes in Win 7 within the hour, a total of four times. So that leads me to think that there is some signal that Win7 is sending in error that is effectively telling the system to shut down, much as it would if the X9000 was actually causing overheating ( I am aware from reading up on this forum, that the X9000 does generate a fair bit of heat ). I repeatedly tested the bottom of the unit, but based entirely on subjective feel, and while it seemed pretty warm, it was not extremely hot. I did not know if there was a way to check for CPU temperatures in Win 7 without special software that checked the fans, heat levels, etc. My ignorance, but I have never had heat problems before, and I'm no gamer, I don't stress my systems - perhaps the most is when they are doing mathematical or statistical calculations!

If this reasoning is correct, then what could be causing Win 7 to have the system shut down? Is there a way to check temperatures right after a shutdown to see if in fact, the system is overheating? Is this all caused by something else entirely?

So there is my puzzle. Any thoughts or suggestions from any of you would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps someone else has encountered this sort of issue.

Baffled,

Sudevan

[Sudevan]

One other thing: the seller is going to replace the X9000 with a T9500, which does not tend to run as hot as the former.

Sudevan

[ajkula66]

One other thing: the seller is going to replace the X9000 with a T9500, which does not tend to run as hot as the former.

He should also refund you like $50-60 for price difference between the two IMO. And X9000 isn't all that hot if the proper heatsink is being used.

Anyways...

Install ThinkPad Fan Control and monitor the temps, especially the GPU one.

My best guess is for the reason that Linux is not shutting down is the lack of proper drivers for nVidia GPU. W7 loads them - I presume - and the GPU either overheats or something along those lines.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Hans Gruber]

I think it's an overheating issue with the CPU. Did you have TPFan Control running to check the temps? Whenever a system shuts down out of the blue, that is a thermal shutdown 9 out of 10 times. I think the T9500 35w processor will do better for you than the 44w x9000 CPU. On a side note, I prefer the Smart Fan 2 setting in TPFan Control utility as it cranks up the fan at higher RPM's than the #1 setting in the default smart fan mode.

[Cigarguy]

Yeah those X9000 CPU do run hot and does nothing for the battery life. A favourite tool of us overclocking geeks is HWMonitor to check and monitor CPU temps. CPUZ is also a useful tool. With Intel CPUs 80-90 deg C is considered hot with 90+ usually resulting in instability. My T61(s) with a T9300 idle in the high 30s to low 40s depending on ambient temp. A full throttle it never gets higher than 85 deg C. If you want to give your CPU a workout use Prime95 and watch the temp with HWMonitor.

From what you are describing I would guess it's a heating issue but it could also be hardware too. I once bought a T61 for cheap ($20 Cdn) because the previous owner had a problem if it constantly and suddenly turning off without warning. Turns out he put a long screw from the bottom of the T61 where the keyboard drain hole was. Press hard enough on the keyboard and a short is caused and everything shuts down. Not saying that's your issue but it might be.

[ajkula66]

With all due respect to the posters above...

I've gone through at least a dozen FrankenPads with X9000 installed and haven't experienced a single thermal shutdown. If the heatsink is properly seated, the CPU will stay under 85C even when the machine pushed pretty hard.

[RealBlackStuff]

I agree with George.
I have built probably 40-50 Frankies, including most of George's machines, and quite a few got that X9000.
Not one overheating problem ever from any of my Frankies!
And they have been shipped all over the globe!

I assume poor alignment of (or the wrong) CPU/GPU cooler for an nVidia mobo with X9000.
Should be at least the fan from a T61p or else a properly modified T500/discrete fan.

[Cigarguy]

Not debating that a X9000 won't work in a Frankie/T61. It will.....assuming it's been properly installed and tested.

[Sudevan]

Thanks for all the responses. It seems to be the consensus so far that the X9000 overheating could be the culprit ( with the possible dissent of George, who proposed that not installing the heatsink properly might be the cause. ). And perhaps George is right on the OS issue, Linux simply is not picking up the overheating because it lacks drivers for the nVidia GPU. I'll pass this information on to the seller, certainly.

Hans, I did not see TPfancontrol on the system, but then I was unsure where to look, never having run into this problem. Is it something that has to be downloaded, or is it part of the Thinkpad's utilities?

There's one part of the puzzle that remains: The seller was unable to reproduce the shutdown while running the exact same configuration that caused a shutdown multiple times when the machine was with me. I can't figure out why the system should behave so differently in different parts of the country. Could electricity from the main supply be responsible for some sort of glitch? (I'm really reaching with that suggestion, since all my other Thinkpads work perfectly well).

RBS, thank you. I have passed your information on to the seller. I think he is certainly planning on replacing the fan, and your suggestion should help.

Thanks again, I'll keep everyone posted.

Sudevan

[Johan]

Maybe a long shot, but I recall having read about various FrankenPad instability-problems, especially as discussed in the thread T61 random shutdown and this post (in the latter in the thread My Frankenpad Conversion and Heat Sink Mods [+PICS]).

Hint: Consider sending user Backslashnl1 a PM and ask him (Arnoud; he is super helpful!) what was really the *core issue* causing his instability?

Best of luck getting this - utmost annoying!! - issue fixed.

Johan

[Sudevan]

Johan, thank you. I will PM Arnoud after I read the posts you have directed me to. I may have missed them somehow when searching for this problem in the Forums. I hope we get the problem fixed, but I also want to know why it happened, so I can understand things better.

[ajkula66]

Hans, I did not see TPfancontrol on the system, but then I was unsure where to look, never having run into this problem. Is it something that has to be downloaded, or is it part of the Thinkpad's utilities?

TPFC can be downloaded right here, version 0.62 is what I run:

http://www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~schmitzr/donate.html

There's one part of the puzzle that remains: The seller was unable to reproduce the shutdown while running the exact same configuration that caused a shutdown multiple times when the machine was with me. I can't figure out why the system should behave so differently in different parts of the country. Could electricity from the main supply be responsible for some sort of glitch? (I'm really reaching with that suggestion, since all my other Thinkpads work perfectly well).

You are truly a gentleman. No sarcasm here. My train of thoughts would go in a vastly different direction...

Install TPFC and watch the temps for CPU and GPU.

Secondly, go into Control Panel>Programs and find out which version of nVidia driver is installed.

Good luck.

[Hans Gruber]

I think George's original analysis is correct. The heatsink is probably not seated correctly or is not the correct heatsink that can handle the x9000 processor. TPfan Control would easily show if your CPU is running hot.

[Sudevan]

Why, thank you George. I do try very hard to be kind, it's just the way I am. I try to assume the best in others too -- I've been reminded by some friends that it is a failing!

I will install the TPFancontrol program and do what you suggest as soon as the seller sends it back. It is on its way back to him at the moment, so we'll see how he deals with it.

Hans, thanks for your comments. I agree with them, and with George, I have also indicated this to the seller.

Sudevan

[Sudevan]

An update on my "new" T60p/T61 Frankenpad which had been suffering from abrupt shutdowns. I think the consensus here was correct, it was likely a heat problem. The seller changed everything inside the machine: fresh NOS motherboard, fresh T61p fan and heatsink, new X9000 chip, and all the rest of it. The only parts remaining from the first machine were the beautiful Flexview screen, clean lid and the shell. I have had it for a few days and so far there are no overheating problems or shutdown issues. I added a Linux Mint 17 OS to make it dual-boot. So all's well that ends well. I'm writing this message on the machine, and it looks and feels great.

Thank you to all who responded and offered sage advice. It's such good fortune to have a community of enthusiasts so willing to help.

I think I can go back to the first song in The King and I: "I whistle a happy tune..."

Sudevan