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ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

T60/T61 series specific matters only
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w1k0
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ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#1 Post by w1k0 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:10 pm

Is it possible to find a non-modified T61 ThinkPad using 15.4" FlexView widescreen display?

I own such a machine using IPS widescreen display with 1680×1050 resolution (TYPE 6463-B45 S/N L3-M4600 ) but because I bought it second-hand I can not be sure that it uses the original display. I am asking the above question because I would like to buy two more T61 ThinkPads using FlexView displays but I do not know if it is reasonable to search for such a machine. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#T_Series and http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Hardware_Specifications there is no T61 ThinkPads using FlexView displays but your knowledge may be more in-depth.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:19 pm

Welcome to the forum.
Sorry to disappoint you, but that screen is not IPS.
The wiki-info is correct, there never was such an IPS screen.
In the 'old' days, only 15" screens in 4:3 Standard format (non-widescreen) were available with IPS, either 1400x1050 (SXGA+) or 1600x1200 (UXGA).
Your own screen is WSXGA+

There are still plenty T61/T61p around (and for sale) with those 15.4" screens in 1680x1050 (WSXGA+) or 1920x1200 (WUXGA).
Beware of problematic nVidia graphics chips though!
Search the forum if you are not familiar with that.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff). And pigs CAN fly!

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#3 Post by w1k0 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:33 pm

@RealBlackStuff

It seems to me that you replies my questions faster than I am able to formulate them properly. Thank you!

In fact I am not a newbie here. I joined the forum in 2010 but I remained silent for five years.

As I see I have to be more precise asking my questions...

Among many other ThinkPads I own X60s and T61. All these machines – except T61 – offer very poor displays. After tilting the screen a bit forth or back the colors fade and the contrast decreases. In the comparison WSXGA+ screen used by my T61 is much better.

The first picture shows my X60s with the screen tilted towards the camera 60°. Both colors and contrast are weak:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... 10-640.jpg

The second picture shows my T61. The colors and contrast are much better:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... 12-640.jpg

So now I have two questions:

1. Whether all 1680×1050 (WSXGA+) displays used in T61 ThinkPads offer better view angles than TFT displays used in X60s?

2. Which display among 1280×800 (WXGA), 1680×1050 (WSXGA+), and 1920×1200 (WUXGA) offers the best view angles?

* * *

I am asking all those questions because I found some outlet 200 km from my city offering T61 ThinkPads using 15" screens. This outlet sells these machines basically in a wholesale way. For example – according to the description on the outlet website – such a machine has 1800–2600 MHz CPU. As a result the customer does not know the exact configuration of the laptop before buying it.

I called that outlet and they told me that they can seek out for me the laptops using some exact configuration. The price of such machines will be slightly higher than the price listed on the website. No problem.

Now I would like to know how to ask them about the configuration of these laptops in order to get the machines using the displays not worse than built in my T61.

MOD Edit: this is the second time that you show pictures that are WAY too big!
The tags were removed and will stay removed. Please read the Forum Rules, especially Section 5.
Last edited by w1k0 on Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#4 Post by 600X » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:47 pm

1. Yes, the WSXGA+ Displays were higher quality TN displays with acceptable contrast and viewing angles.

2. That would have to be a tie between the LG WUXGA and the SHARP WUXGA, at least when considering drop-in replacements.
Daily: T440p
ThinkPads: 600X (i3), A31p (FlexView), X41, T43, T60 (FlexView), T61p (4:3), R61 (QXGA), X301 (AFFS), W500, X1

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#5 Post by w1k0 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:09 pm

@600X

Thank you!

So my problem concerning WSXGA+ displays is solved. They are better than standard LCD screens built in most older ThinkPads including X60s. As I result I can order T61 ThinkPads using WSXGA+ display, 2400 MHz or better CPU, and Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (to avoid nVIDIA).

As I understand your second reply, the best view angles in the case of the widescreen displays for T61 ThinkPads offer the LG WUXGA and the SHARP WUXGA. Because I suppose that the distinction between LG WUXGA and SHARP WUXGA would be too sophisticated for that outlet I need to ask one more question:

Whether the LG WUXGA and the SHARP WUXGA displays are the only ones WUXGA used in T61 ThinkPads or there are the other WUXGA displays which I should avoid in order to get the laptop with the screen offering the best view angles?

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#6 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:25 pm

FYI: there never were any 15" T61 machines, only 14.1" 4:3, 14.1" widescreen and 15.4" widescreen.
However there were 15" T60, R60 and R61 (only available in Europe and Asia).
The WUXGA as supplied by Lenovo were either LG or Samsung.
The Samsung screens are despicable.
The Sharp screens are used in Dell laptops, like D800,D810, D820 and others.
They have mounting brackets on top and bottom that have to be cut off first.
However, they are pin-compatible, so they fit fine in a 15.4" T60/T61/R61/T500/R500.
That Sharp screen is by far the best that's on the market, even used.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff). And pigs CAN fly!

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#7 Post by w1k0 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:45 pm

I understand. I was not enough precise once again. I own 15.4" widescreen T61 ThinkPad and that outlet sells 15.4" widescreen T61 ThinkPads as well.

Since LG WUXGA is good and Samsung WUXGA is mediocre I can not order T61 with WUXGA risking that I will buy two laptops with the mediocre Samsung displays. So I have to order T61 with WSXGA+ display (assuming that all WSXGA+ displays supplied by Lenovo were equally good).

As for the excellent Sharp WUXGA I could consider switching to them after I will buy these two laptops.

Thank you once again!

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#8 Post by evening_hunger » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:58 pm

Plus, if that joint is in Wroclaw, you could drop a link:)
x320/i7-2620M/8GB/256gb.ssd/FHD13.3''IPS/debian_testing (main driver)
x230/i5/8GB/500gb.hdd+256gb.m2ssd/IPS/debian_stable+win7 (better half)

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#9 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:10 am

w1k0 wrote:So I have to order T61 with WSXGA+ display (assuming that all WSXGA+ displays supplied by Lenovo were equally good).
An incorrect presumption.

Samsung WSXGA+ LCD is notably worse than its LG counterpart, although the difference is not as striking as it is between the WUXGA panels.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#10 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:54 am

I would buy some 15.4" T61 with Intel graphics and whatever screen (even broken) it comes with.
Then I would look on eBay (or elsewhere) for these screens from Sharp/Dell: (LQ154M1LW2A,LQ154M1LW02)
Combined they will make excellent laptops.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#11 Post by w1k0 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:03 pm

evening_hunger wrote:Plus, if that joint is in Wroclaw, you could drop a link:)
My English is not too good so I am not sure that I understand your suggestion. I suppose that you are asking me to post a link to the outlet’s website if it is in Wrocław.

It is not. I live in Wrocław. That outlet is in Częstochowa – 200 km from my city.

ajkula66

Thank you for that correction!

A few posts ago it seemed to me that the solution of my problem is to order T61 ThinkPads using WSXGA+ displays. Now I see that the Samsung version of that display is significantly worse than the LG one.

In such a situation there are two possibilities:

1) either my T61 uses Samsung WSXGA+ and when I order the machines using WSXGA+ I may be pleasantly surprised if I buy them with LG WSXGA+;

2) or my T61 uses LG WSXGA+ and when I order the machines using WSXGA+ I may be very disappointed if I buy them with Samsung WSXGA+.

So now the crucial problem is which WSXGA+ uses my T61 – Samsung or LG.

I run Linux on all my ThinkPads. I tested my T61 using two programs – hwinfo and hardinfo – but none of them do not seem to provide the information about the producer of the display.

As a result my new question is: whether it is possible to establish the producer of the display without disassembling the machine – that means using some software? (I prefer Linux software but I could run some Windows program using a virtual box running Windows XP.)

RealBlackStuff

Switching the display to Sharp/Dell LQ154M1LW2A or LQ154M1LW02 is an interesting option.

I like to develop the software but I hate to disassemble and assemble the machines. As a result the fans in my ThinkPads wheeze for a few months until BIOS displays the message “Fan error” and refuses to run the machine. At this exact point I buy a new fan and replace the dead one.

So switching the display is an interesting option but not the first choice in my case. In fact it is the last choice for me.

Anyways thank you for that suggestion!

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#12 Post by rumbero » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:46 pm

w1k0 wrote:I run Linux on all my ThinkPads.
And you are also using the 'Window Maker' window manager! Check out my project http://wmlive.sourceforge.net if you are interested in a Debian Linux distribution optimized for 'Window Maker'. I am currently in the last stages working on the next release version based on Debian/Jessie, for which http://wmlive.rumbero.org will be the new home page once the time has arrived.
I tested my T61 using two programs – hwinfo and hardinfo – but none of them do not seem to provide the information about the producer of the display.
In Debian Linux you can try this:

Code: Select all

# apt-cache search read-edid              
read-edid - hardware information-gathering tool for VESA PnP monitors
[root]~ # get-edid --help
get-edid, from read-edid 3.0.1. Licensed under the GPL.
Current version by Matthew Kern <pyrophobicman@gmail.com>
Previous work by John Fremlin <vii@users.sourceforge.net>
and others (See AUTHORS).

Usage:
 -b BUS, --bus BUS      Only scan the i2c bus BUS.
 -c, --classiconly      Do not check the i2c bus for an EDID
 -h, --help             Display this help
 -i, --i2conly          Do not check for an EDID over VBE
 -m NUM, --monitor NUM  For VBE only - some lame attempt at selecting monitors.
 -q, --quiet            Do not output anything over stderr (messages, essentially)

For help, go to <http://polypux.org/projects/read-edid/> or
email <pyrophobicman@gmail.com>. 
Sample output for my Frankenpad:

Code: Select all

# get-edid -q
Int&#MTH?@0b°2@@À0äþ L960 Graphics Chip Accelerated VGA BIOSÿÿÿÿÿÿ      åx
           þBOE HYDIS
   þHV150UX1-101
Broken T23 2647-9RG | A few 14.1" T61 Frankenpads | Two 15" Frankenpad T61+ with UXGA IPS Display

w1k0
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#13 Post by w1k0 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:18 pm

THIS IS OFF-TOPIC POST FOR LINUX FREAKS ONLY!

Hi rumbero,

It is a great pleasure to know that someone else uses nowadays Window Maker. My pleasure is even bigger because you are a maintainer of the Linux distribution optimized for Window Maker (Debian-based).

Here is my Linux background...

I started to use Linux in 1997. My first distribution was Red Hat 4.2. At the beginning I used it with AfterStep. I tried also Gnome and KDE but I was not able to live with the first longer than a few days and with the other longer than a few hours. In 1998 I started to use Window Maker and I use it since exclusively.

In 2000 Red Hat started to change. I was disappointed with its evolution so I tried Mandrake. It was even worse. At that very point I stated that there are just two Linux distributions which may meet my expectations: Slackware and Debian.

I tried Slackware first and I fallen in love with it so I did not try Debian then. Since 2000 I use Slackware exclusively.

In the meantime I tried the other distributions – just for fun – including: Debian, Gentoo, Arch, Ubuntu, Mint, and FreeBSD (which is not a Linux distribution).

As for Mint I always have its latest version on the first partition of my machine. I do not use it but I install and configure it because I clone that installation on my friends machines. My girlfriend – which is a total lame – is able to use my older T60 with Mint. She is so lame that she was not able to use Windows XP at all. She started to use the computer after I gave her T41 with Mint because I was bored with cloning for her Windows XP installation again and again. Now I would like to give her T61 using some good display because she uses her laptop mainly to download and watch the movies.

As for my desktops – which I infamously attached to my second post here – on the left side of the screen you may see a few instances of wminfo. This program was developed by Robert Kling. He stopped to develop it in 2000. I started to maintain it in 2011 and I am maintaining it still.

You may find some my programs here:

http://linux-bsd-unix.strefa.pl/index.en.html

The last wminfo version released by Robert Kling is 1.51. My current wminfo version is 4.2.1. In comparison to its predecessor now it is very sophisticated program (see: ChangeLog). I wrote about 200 plugins for wminfo but just a quarter of that number is useful. The other plugins serve for the demonstration or test purposes.

Here is the desktop of my primary user:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... er-1_1.png

From the top to bottom you see the plugins:

date-pl.wmi
conky.thinkpad.wmi
conky.sysmon.wmi
conky.top.wmi
conky.uptime.wmi
df.wmi
conky.netmon.wmi
biff-w1k0.wmi
conky.wrapper-weather.wmi
conky.wrapper-sun-moon-tz.wmi
wrapper-internet-allinone.wmi

In most cases the names of these plugins are self-explanatory.

Here is the desktop of my secondary user:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... er-2_1.png

At the top there are two dockapps:

wmSunMoon -lat 51.11 -lon -17.02 -twil -gold -perc -sun -moon
wmcube -f -r 20 -R -o cube-solid.wmc

I wrote the first on the basis of wmSun and wmMoonClock dockapps – both by Michael G. Henderson – and the other modifying wmcube by Robert Kling.

Then are some fancy plugins:

hexclock-01.wmi
binclock-vertical-01.bin -l
beatclock.wmi
fuzzy-clock.wmi
clock.wmi
calendar.wmi
print-hours.wmi
print-minutes.wmi
cpumon.wmi

The bottom line is: I am not very interested in Debian because I wrote a sophisticated set of the scripts installing and configuring Slackware so I mastered Slackware configuration to the definitive limits. On the other hand when I will find some free time I will test your Debian fork using one of my ThinkPads because I like to test everything (including myself).

* * *

If you would like to discuss about Slackware, Debian, Window Maker, wminfo, my girlfriend, your girlfriend, Robert Kling, Michael G. Henderson, Samuel Beckett, “Watt” or some other off-topics feel free to write a private message to me.

Bye,

w1k0

THE END OF A VERY BORING OFF-TOPIC POST

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#14 Post by w1k0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:43 pm

Because I install Linux Mint on the first partitions of my hard drives it was not difficult for me to use get-edid in order to test the graphics chips.

First I ran that program on X60s XGA (1024×768):

Code: Select all

# get-edid -q
Intel(r) 82945GM Chipset Family Graphics Chip Accelerated VGA BIOS
As you see it reported the chipset type but ignored the LCD panel type.

Then I ran it on T61 WSXGA+ (1680×1050):

Code: Select all

# get-edid -q
Intel(r)Crestline Graphics Chip Accelerated VGA BIOS������$M�(�!x
���XU�($PT/��`@ 0K�E'��`@ 0K��
2�
(2
    �LP154W02-TL06�
Among some garbage there is the information about the panel type: LP154W02-TL06.

I found the parameters of that panel here:

http://www.panelook.com/LP154W02-TL06_L ... _5601.html
LG.Philips LCD LP154W02-TL06
Brightness : 200 cd/m² (Typ.)
Contrast Ratio : 500:1 (Typ.)
Viewing Angle : 65/65/50/50 (Typ.)(CR≥10) (L/R/U/D)
So my T61 uses LG.Philips panel. Because it is enough good for me I assumed that the above parameters are acceptable from my point of view.

Then I checked the information from:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display

According to it T61p WSXGA+ uses LG-Philips LP154W02-TL10. There is no there the information about T61 WSXGA+ but I suppose that my LP154W02-TL06 is similar to LP154W02-TL10.

Because now I can tie together the information from thinkwiki.org and panelook.com I may look for the suitable laptop model myself. So far I was going to buy two T61 WSXGA+ because my specimen has a great display. Now I started to think that the better option for me is to buy one T500, T510, or T520.

T500

AT-OUTLET sells T500 just with 1280×800 displays. According to ThinkWiki that display uses either Samsung LTN154X3-L02, or LG-Philips LP154WX5, or LG-Philips LP154WX7-TLP2 panel. According to Panelook LTN154X3-L02 parameters are not known, LP154WX5 viewing angles are at best 45/45/20/40 or 45/45/15/35, and LP154WX7-TLP2 viewing angles are 45/45/20/40. So none of them is on par with my LP154W02-TL06 offering viewing angles equal 65/65/50/50.

Conclusion: these T500 are not for me.

T510

That outlet sells T510 just with 1366×768 displays. According to ThinkWiki the panel in such a display may be made by Samsung, LG-Philips, or AUO but ThikWiki does not mention the types of these panels so I can not check them in Panelook.

Conclusion: these T510 are not for me as well.

T520

That outlet sells T520 using a few types of the displays and different configurations...

CPU 2.50 GHz
HDD 500 GB
RAM 8 GB
WXGA 1366×768
Intel HD Graphics
Price: $325 or 1 299 zł

ThinkWiki does not mention such a laptop so it is not for me.

CPU 2.50 GHz
SSD 120 GB
RAM 8 GB
WXGA 1366×768
Intel HD Graphics
Price: $362 or 1 449 zł

ThinkWiki does not mention such a laptop so it is not for me as well.

CPU 2.50 GHz
SSD 128 GB
RAM 8 GB
HD+ 1600×900
not known graphics
Price: $375 or 1 499 zł

According to ThinkWiki that display may use either LG-Philips LP156WD1-TLB2 or AUO panel of an unknown type. LP156WD1-TLB2 has brightness 220 cd/m² (better than my T61), contrast ratio 400:1 (worse than my T61), and view angles 65/65/55/55 (the same as my T61). This laptop seems enough good for me, assuming that I will buy it with LG-Philips panel.

More pricey T520 offered by that outlet have bigger SSD, faster CPU, and may be brand new.

Conclusion

As a result I will buy ThinkPad T520 with HD+ 1600×900.

I read a few reviews of T520 including:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Len ... 596.0.html

and

http://techdadreview.com/2011/09/15/len ... 20-laptop/

T520 uses both Intel HD Graphics 3000 built into the CPU and the dedicated NVIDIA NVS 4200M graphics card. It is possible to switch between them so NVIDIA should not cause problems at all.

T520 uses 3.5 mm combo audio socket but according to https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-T ... a-p/240186 most headphones should work with this socket. In trouble I can buy a Y adapter.

T520 which I would like to buy uses 128 GB SSD but I can put some HDD into an UltraBay in order to keep my system on SSD and data on HDD (so I have to buy the UltraBay caddy).

Problem solved!

* * *

It seems to me now that the right subject of this thread should be: „How to change mind and buy one T520 instead of two T61?”
Last edited by w1k0 on Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ajkula66
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#15 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:19 pm

w1k0 wrote: Conclusion

As a result I will buy ThinkPad T520 with HD+ 1600×900.
Don't, unless you're intent on swapping the LCD immediately. HD+ panel found in these machines is a piece of junk.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

FlexView AARP club members:A31p, T43pSF, X60T

Abused daily: X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#16 Post by w1k0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:48 pm

@ajkula66

In your previous post here you wrote:
ajkula66 wrote:An incorrect presumption.

Samsung WSXGA+ LCD is notably worse than its LG counterpart, although the difference is not as striking as it is between the WUXGA panels.
After I found http://www.panelook.com site I thought that I may tie the information about the specific panels with the information gathered from http://www.thinkwiki.org in order to find the right laptop for me myself. I tried to do that in my previous post.

Now you are warning me that HD+ panel built into T520 is horrible. Thank you very much for that warning but now I am in the point of the departure!

So what happened:

1. The information from panelook.com is not reliable?

2. My assumption that slightly better brightness, slightly worse contrast, and the same view angles in the case of LP154W02-TL06 in my T61 and LP156WD1-TLB2 in T520 should produce a similar result is wrong?

3. I overlooked some crucial factor when I compared different panels to my LP154W02-TL06?

Instead of answering all above questions just tell me how could I check the configurations of the laptops offered by some seller against the data about the panels quality in order to buy a laptop using a decent panel – better than the panels in my T41, T60, or X60s and roughly as good as the panel in my T61?

I prefer to analyze the information myself instead of asking the hundreds of the questions here and there but I have to know first where I could find a reliable information and which factors are crucial.

ajkula66
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#17 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:56 pm

w1k0 wrote:
So what happened:

1. The information from panelook.com is not reliable?
I never said that. However, any information on paper/internet fades when compared to a first-hand experience.
2. My assumption that slightly better brightness, slightly worse contrast, and the same view angles in the case of LP154W02-TL06 in my T61 and LP156WD1-TLB2 in T520 should produce a similar result is wrong?
Yes. Read on.
3. I overlooked some crucial factor when I compared different panels to my LP154W02-TL06?
No, not really. But comparing any CCFL panel to a LED one is a difficult task.

If you're looking for a T/W 510/520, just make sure that it sports a FHD (1920x1080) LCD and you'll be getting the best pick of the litter. Other options are really not worth considering, unless you get the machine dirt cheap and have a spare AUO FHD panel to swap in.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

FlexView AARP club members:A31p, T43pSF, X60T

Abused daily: X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#18 Post by n2ri » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:57 am

when you say 'order a T61" you do realize Lenovo discontinued them long ago right?
also whyare you stuck on T series models? the later W series had way better features offered like W500 and W520 (which had the best display ever even better than W701. I own a very nice T61 and got a W500 for backup which is way better than the T61 series in many ways. now looking at W520 for same reasons over the W500

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#19 Post by w1k0 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:55 pm

@ajkula66

Thank you very much for these clarifications. Now I see at Panelook that LP154W02-TL06 from my T61 is CCFL while LP156WD1-TLB2 from these T520 is WLED. I did not realize that it is a crucial difference. In fact I did not know what CCFL and WLED mean. As a result I overlooked a crucial factor: backlight.

You told me: “Read on” so I started to read. Below I put a few excerpts from the following article:

https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-ev ... acklights/
But the main drawback of most current LED backlight technologies is the narrower spectral range of the light they emit when compared to WCG (Wide Colour Gamut) CCFL backlights. This was a key reason for some manufacturers being slow to drop CCFL backlighting on some of their ‘professional’ models – almost exclusively to create wider colour gamuts necessary for image processing and viewing extended colours gamuts such as Adobe RGB.
Unlike these RGB triad designs, most modern LED backlight solutions involve placing a border (or in some case clusters) of ‘white’ LEDs behind or at the side of the LCD matrix, often near the edges and using a diffuser to spread the light across the screen. [...] Early iterations of the technology (those circa 2009-10) tended to suffer from an obvious and uncorrectable blue bias. As manufacturers became more familiar with the technology and were able to tweak the backlights, phosphor coatings and the LCD panels this tint became more workable. Despite these advances many WLED backlights used in modern monitors still suffer from certain imbalances when it comes to the spectrum of light they produce.
Provided the filters are working as intended (i.e. the monitor is properly calibrated) your typical WLED-backlit monitor will be able to make good use of the strong ‘pure blue’ spectral component to produce strong ‘pure blue’ colours. The red and green components (originating from the yellow light of the YAG phosphor coating) are relatively weak. These gaps in spectral energy and relative lack of intensity for wavelengths other than 450nm restrict the colour gamut of a typical LED-backlit monitor to roughly the sRGB colour space.
Looking at the colour reproduction in greater detail you will also find that the ‘pure blue’ component can become overpowering. When you mix this with the relatively diminutive yellow component (greens and reds) there will be some weaknesses evident. This is particularly true for shades that are mostly blue but contain a slight mixture of the other colours; it may seem counter-intuitive but most WLED-backlit monitors are not very good at displaying certain shades of blue!
For CCFL backlights a wide variety of phosphors can be used including ones that produce a wide colour gamut (WCG-CCFL).
Samsung, one of the key modern panel manufacturers, has really embraced WLED backlighting and was the first panel manufacturer to adopt it universally for all new models. They launched a number of ‘Premium’ models in their Series 7, Series 8 and Series 9 screens which broke some of the traditional technological boundaries. These models include the (T/S)(23/27)(A750/950), (S24/27)A850 and the S27B970D. They make use of improved phosphors with enhanced spectral qualities to increase energy in the ‘yellow’ region. This is particularly true for the high-end PLS models which show significant improvement in this area. These enhanced phosphors improve the coverage in the red and green sections of the gamut but also expand the range of blue shades that can be produced.
Although it can be nice from some perspectives to reach a bit beyond sRGB, as it allows slightly greater vibrancy, you would really want to reach the next ‘standard’ of gamut for colour-critical work and to really unlock vibrancy potential. This is exactly what panel manufacturers are now aiming to do, with LG Display starting to integrate a modified type of WLED backlight called GB-LED (also known as GB-R LED or GB-r LED). Rather than using a blue diode coated in yellow phosphor, the backlights combine blue and green diodes with a red phosphor. As illustrated below, this creates strong and distinct spectral peaks for blue, green and red rather than giving a blue peak and broad ‘yellow’ region. This technology is currently being implemented in LG AH-IPS (‘Advanced High-performance In-Plane Switching’) panels such as the 24” LM240WU9, 27” LM270WQ3 and 30” LM270WQ6 and also several Samsung PLS (Plane to Line Switching) panels. These are designed to provide 99% Adobe RGB coverage and 104% NTSC coverage which actually exceeds the 98% Adobe RGB and 102% NTSC typical of WCG-CCFLs.
When LED backlighting first took off manufacturers were all too keen to promote what were essentially misleading or even fabricated performance benefits. As the technology became adopted quite broadly it became all too clear that the situation wasn’t a ‘win-win’ in favour of the sender ‘white LED’ (WLED) backlight. In some areas, particularly colour gamut coverage, CCFLs could offer significant and clearly visible advantages.
The bottom line is: CCFL backlights offer better color gamuts (especially WCG-CCFL) but some modern WLED are good too (particularly PLS backlights by Samsung as well as GB-LED, AH-IPS, and PLS ones by LG – these last ones are in par with WCG-CCFL).

Note that I am aware that not all these types of the panels are used in laptops. Adam Simmons discusses the panels for the monitors. Moreover he focuses on the color gamuts passing over the viewing angles.
ajkula66 wrote:
w1k0 wrote:3. I overlooked some crucial factor when I compared different panels to my LP154W02-TL06?
No, not really. But comparing any CCFL panel to a LED one is a difficult task.

If you're looking for a T/W 510/520, just make sure that it sports a FHD (1920x1080) LCD and you'll be getting the best pick of the litter.
My T61 WSXGA+ uses the following panel:
1680×1050 LG.Philips LCD LP154W02-TL06
Brightness : 200 cd/m² (Typ.) 
Contrast Ratio : 500:1 (Typ.)  
Viewing Angle : 65/65/50/50 (Typ.)(CR≥10) (L/R/U/D) 
Lamp Type : 1 pcs CCFL Without Driver
T510, T520, or T530 FHD use the following panel:
1920×1080 AUO B156HW01 V4
Brightness : 270 cd/m² (Typ.) 
Contrast Ratio : 400:1 (Typ.)  
Viewing Angle : 70/70/60/60 (Typ.)(CR≥10) (L/R/U/D) 
Lamp Type : WLED Embedded (LED Driver)
So – if I understand you right – CCFL with viewing angles 65/65/50/50 used in my T61 with WSXGA+ 1680×1050 is much better than WLED with similar viewing angles 65/65/55/55 used in T520 with HD+ 1600×900 but WLED with viewing angles 70/70/60/60 used in T520 with FHD 1920×1080 is roughly as good as mentioned above CCFL with viewing angles 65/65/50/50.

Am I right?

T520

AT-OULET does not sell T520 FHD 1920×1080 but some other suppliers do. I found two such offers...

T520 (mavaro, Kraków, 10 pieces)
CPU 2.70 GHz
HDD 320 GB
RAM 8 GB (?)
FHD 1920×1080
Intel HD Graphics 3000
Keyboard: German + US stickers
Condition: Good
Price: $375 or 1 499 zł

This configuration uses useless 320 GB HDD, ugly German keyboard with US stickers, and is merely in good condition.

T520 (MEMTECH, Warszawa, 40 pieces, shipment: January 2016)
CPU 2.70 GHz
HDD 500 GB
RAM 8 GB
FHD 1920×1080
Intel HD 3000
Keyboard: UK
Condition: Perfect; Class A
Price: $398 or 1 590 zł

This configuration uses nice 500 GB HDD, acceptable UK keyboard (I prefer US keyboards), and is in perfect condition.

I prefer the second configuration. These laptops will be available in January 2016.

The bottom line is that the price of the above T520 is equal the price of three T61 which I considered at the beginning.


@n2ri
n2ri wrote:when you say 'order a T61" you do realize Lenovo discontinued them long ago right?
Yep!
n2ri wrote:also whyare you stuck on T series models? the later W series had way better features offered like W500 and W520 (which had the best display ever even better than W701. I own a very nice T61 and got a W500 for backup which is way better than the T61 series in many ways. now looking at W520 for same reasons over the W500
OK. Let us see W500 and W520...

W500

This laptop uses one of the following WSXGA+ panels:
1680×1050 SAMSUNG LTN154P3-L02
Brightness : 180 cd/m² (Typ.) 
Contrast Ratio : 300:1 (Typ.)  
Viewing Angle : 65/65/50/50 (Typ.)(CR≥10) (L/R/U/D) 
Lamp Type : 1 pcs CCFL Without Driver
1680×1050 LG.Philips LCD LP154W02-TL10
Brightness : 200 cd/m² (Typ.) 
Contrast Ratio : 500:1 (Typ.)  
Viewing Angle : 65/65/50/50 (Typ.)(CR≥10) (L/R/U/D) 
Lamp Type : 1 pcs CCFL Without Driver
Samsung panel is worse than LG-Philips one at least taking into consideration brightness and contrast ratio.

I tried to find W500 using WSXGA+ but at present nothing interesting is available.

W520

These laptops are at present too pricey from my point of view but maybe in January 2016 their prices will drop. I will check W520 then before I will decide finally to buy T520.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#20 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:43 pm

I assume you are aware that your T61 and a T500/W500 have 16:10 screens?
All newer ones (from T510/W510 onwards) have 16:9 screens, which are basically only good to watch TV/movies and do only minimal real work.
The reason: not enough screen-height.
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#21 Post by w1k0 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:32 pm

I loved 4:3 screens but now they are the past. I bought T61 because its 16:10 screen was the best choice two years ago. Now I am going to buy T520 using 16:9 screen. I am aware that this last screen is one inch narrower than the previous one.

The text on T61 16:10 WSXGA+ 1680×1050 screen is tiny in the comparison to the text on X60s 4:3 XGA 1024×768 screen. As a result – for example – Midnight Commander displays 47 lines of the text on X60s screen while it displays 65 lines on T61 screen. It displays also much more characters per line in the case of T61.

According to:

https://www.sven.de/dpi/

● 4:3 1024×768 12" screen in X60s offers 105.79 PPI,
● 16:10 1680×1050 15.4" screen in T61 offers 128.65,
● 16:9 1920×1080 15.6" screen in T520 offers 141.21 PPI.

That 16:9 screen is one inch shorter than 16:10 one but it displays smaller pixels so I suppose that both these screens display the similar number of the lines – much more than 4:3 1024×768 display. So the amount of the text is not my concern in the case of 16:9 screen. My concern is the size of that text. It may bee too tiny to read it comfortably.

In Window Maker I use five workspaces and I usually run just one program on each workspace. If I run two or three programs on one of them I switch between them if necessary. For example I write these words on the third workspace using OpenOffice Writer. The Writer window occupies the center of the workspace:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... spaces.png

Below the OpenOffice Writer window there is StarDict running 27 English dictionaries. If I want to check some word I press Alt-Tab, I check the word, and I press Alt-Tab once again to go back to the Writer.

In order to narrow the workspace I put some dockable applications on the left margin and I leave the right margin empty for the icons of the running programs.

I know that many computer users use just one workspace (desktop) and they put a few windows next to each other but it is not my style of computing.

So it seems to me that the only problem caused by 16:9 1920×1080 screen may be in my case the tiny text displayed by different programs.

ajkula66
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#22 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:05 pm

w1k0 wrote:I loved 4:3 screens but now they are the past.
For some of us they'll never be. This post was created on a 4:3 R61 with a Hydis LED UXGA panel.
So it seems to me that the only problem caused by 16:9 1920×1080 screen may be in my case the tiny text displayed by different programs.
If you're comfortable with your current 1680x1050 panel, you'll likely be OK with 1920x1080. The only way to find out is to actually use one...
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#23 Post by w1k0 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:40 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
w1k0 wrote:I loved 4:3 screens but now they are the past.
For some of us they'll never be. This post was created on a 4:3 R61 with a Hydis LED UXGA panel.
...and it replies to my post written on X60s using 1024×768 4:3 display.

Apart of this X60s I have the other X60s, some X61 or X61s with X60s lid, T60, T41, and T40. All of them use 4:3 screens.

Oh, I forgot! I have also one T61 using 16:10 screen.

When I stated that 4:3 screens are the past I meant that if you prefer them you have two choices: either use an obsolete machine or assemble your own machine like Bibin tries here.
ajkula66 wrote:If you're comfortable with your current 1680x1050 panel, you'll likely be OK with 1920x1080. The only way to find out is to actually use one...
You consoled me with the first sentence. The second sentence is true but in order to achieve that I should met the following conditions: 1) find someone who owns such a machine and 2) go outside home. It seems to me that simpler is to buy such a machine.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#24 Post by n2ri » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:34 am

funny you bring up the text size issue on dif models/screens. my T61 text is bigger, easier to read than my W500 with same settings. I never considered the problem being the screen resolution. interesting. my old eyes been giving me fits over this recently and I thought it was just me. then I also noticed even desktop icons and online game displays are dif sizes. my W500 has 12 icons top to bottom while the T61 only 10. thats a big differance when both settings same and screen size same diag. makes me wonder now about those slightly bigger W520 displays. but I know there are some W520 that have way finer res than even the W700/1 and both these models also have auto color balence option but the W701 says 75% true/full while the W520 version of HD says 95% and a youtube tester compares the 2 at image rendering both in quality. speed, CPU and GPU and Power usage. the W520 does it 2x faster with half the power watts. plus brighter finer screen display. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5E8HCgkMKQ

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#25 Post by w1k0 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:42 pm

Yesterday the fan in my second X60s died completely. Because my girlfriend uses temporarily my third X60s I switched to T61. I did not use it for half a year excluding special occasions such as making a screenshot for this particular thread a few days ago.

In the middle of this year I bought two devices: Samsung Galaxy Tab S and Samsung Galaxy S5 Mini. Both use splendid AMOLED screens.

Half year ago I thought that 1680×1050 screen in my T61 is splendid. As I erroneously wrote that in my first post here I supposed that this is an IPS screen. It is not. In the comparison to the AMOLED screens that CCFL screen is merely pretty good. On the other hand that pretty good screen is much better than mediocre LED screens in all my X60s.

CCFL offers much better view angles than LED but some colors cause problems. In order to distinguish #8000ff and #0000ff shades of blue I have to tilt the screen precisely and look at these colors from the top. The same with some distinct shades of green such as #00ff80, #00ff00, and #80ff00. When I look at them from the right angle they seem almost the same. And so on. So CCFL panel is pretty good but not great.

@n2ri

Everything depends on the type of the text or icons. Just download the following screenshot and look at it on the 1:1 scale (use the “Download” link next to the image):

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq23 ... /fonts.png

1. The icons on the right margin are not the problem. They could be smaller and still distinguishable. Alternatively I can change the size of these icons.

2. Window Maker menu “Applications” is not the problem as well. Standard Trebuchet MS 12 pt font looks ugly and is tiny on 1680×1050 screen but I can easily change it to Liberation Mono 15 pt one for a better appearance.

3. The text displayed by Firefox – here in the standard scale – is of course not the problem as well.

4. The problems causes the text of the programs menus such as “Help” in Firefox and the text displayed by the dockable applications on the left margin. On 1680×1050 screen the text in both these cases is tiny. On 1680×1050 1920×1080 screen it would be even tinier.

That was my point.

* * *

The advantage of the 1680×1050 screen over 1024×768 one is the following: on XGA I can put 11 dockable applications and the WMClip on the left margin while on WSXGA+ I can put 15 such applications. FHD screen holds vertically 15 dockable applications as well but they are tinier – so the displayed text is tinier as well – and the superfluous gap at the bottom is bigger.

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#26 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:00 pm

w1k0 wrote: It is not. In the comparison to the AMOLED screens that CCFL screen is merely pretty good. On the other hand that pretty good screen is much better than mediocre LED screens in all my X60s.
X60 in any shape or form sports a CCFL screen, not a LED one.
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Cheers,

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#27 Post by Pete B » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:31 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:I would buy some 15.4" T61 with Intel graphics and whatever screen (even broken) it comes with.
Then I would look on eBay (or elsewhere) for these screens from Sharp/Dell: (LQ154M1LW2A,LQ154M1LW02)
Combined they will make excellent laptops.
That is good to know, will Sharp/Dell: (LQ154M1LW2A,LQ154M1LW02) fit in a T510 by chance?
Just noticed that the T510 is LED backlit so I suppose that it will not fit.

If not is there a display that is viewed as the best for the T510?
Frankenpad 15" TuuS MB X9000, T61 14" doner, T61 15" fixed gave away
X61s L7700 7666-B7U Prefer a T8100
Toughbook CF51 with SSD, Dell: D830, M4400, M6400, E4300

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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#28 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:00 am

Nope, those Sharp 15.4" screens are 16:10 and only fit in 15.4" T6x/R6x/T500/R500.
T510 and upwards are 15.6" and 16:9.
The best screen for a T510 (if you can find it) would be an FHD AOU B156HW01 v.4 (FRU 04W1544)
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Re: ThinkPad T61 with 15.4" FlexView (IPS) widescreen display

#29 Post by Pete B » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:38 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:Nope, those Sharp 15.4" screens are 16:10 and only fit in 15.4" T6x/R6x/T500/R500.
T510 and upwards are 15.6" and 16:9.
The best screen for a T510 (if you can find it) would be an FHD AOU B156HW01 v.4 (FRU 04W1544)
Bad assumption on my part, I had been reading about the T410 being 16:10 and assumed
that the T510 was also, but reading the spec I see that you are correct.
Comments about HD and FHD should have caught my eye.
Frankenpad 15" TuuS MB X9000, T61 14" doner, T61 15" fixed gave away
X61s L7700 7666-B7U Prefer a T8100
Toughbook CF51 with SSD, Dell: D830, M4400, M6400, E4300

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