Frankenpad still worth it in 2016?

[excelsior]

Hello Thinkpad fans,
Yes, where have I been all these years...but I'm just finding out now about the possibility of building a T60 with a T61 motherboard inside (Frankenpad). I've been enjoying my T60 for 10 years now, updating it every so often, but never thought of looking for an incremental improvement until now.

I'm just wondering now about the feasibility of finding a good IPS display attached to a T60 15" that can be reliable for a few years. Any parts out there are likely 10 years old now. That's really old, and I don't feel comfortable building something around a screen of that age.

The question I'm mulling around -- is building a Frankenpad still a reasonable option at this point-- or has it's time come and gone? Maybe that Retro Thinkpad will come out soon?

[RealBlackStuff]

If you relish the 4:3 format screens and a decent 7-row keyboard, then your only option left is to update your T60 to a T601 FrankenPad.
You can get BoeHydis HV150UX2-100 screens which are 15", IPS, UXGA (1600x1200), have ex-factory LED backlight and have been (and are still) produced since ca. 2010.
Those screens were originally designed for medical equipment (like Ultrasound scanners) which needs excellent picture quality.
They are not cheap though, and they also need a LED-mod (see my signature) to fit in the Frankie.
I have built about a hundred of such Frankies, and all of them are still functioning all over the world.
They were shipped to such far places as New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Japan and all over the US and Europe.

[theterminator93]

I had a T60 which was given to me by a client about 3 years ago which I'd been using for work. It was getting a little long in the tooth (esp. in Google Maps since the new version came out, which I need to use often to compute mileage) but I'd been dealing with it.
I acquired a 15" T60p from a forum member several months ago which just wasn't being used very much... then a month or so ago I stumbled upon a T61 14" standard screen on ebay which looked barely used for under $20! Granted it's got a defect-period NVS GPU, but after many hours of continuous torture testing it didn't do anything weird (plus, as luck would have it, none of the 2 well-tortured T61ps I've had with defect-period GPUs have died on me yet), so I decided to snag it in case I ever wanted to use it for building a FrankenPad. Then - the icing on the cake and final catalyst - a forum member was selling a Lenovo refurb'd 15.4" T61p board and included the original T9300 CPU - then I found a listing for 2x 4GB DDR2 chips for $75. So I decided to grab the pieces and go to work.

My T601F is considerably snappier than either T60 or T60p with the much improved GPU (much cooler with similar performance and better W7 driver support compared to T60p), RAM, CPU (I put a 1.83 C2D into the T60 after I got it, and the T60p had a 2.33 C2D) and SATA-II SSD. This machine should last (assuming the GPU cooperates) as long as I'm willing to use it.

So the short version of all this is... as long as you're not looking for hardcore gaming performance or the need to run the latest 3D design/CAD applications... A T601F is absolutely still relevant. Even more so if you do the 1066FSB and/or quad core mods.

[Pete B]

Hi RBS, when you say " ex-factory LED backlight" what do you mean by ex-factory?

I went to your web page and I don't see a price the the UXGA LED display panel, do
you still sell them?
Then to install it in a T60 Frankenpad, I just have to send you the correct cable and
inverter card per your modification price?

This all bolts and plugs in?

[ajkula66]

So the short version of all this is... as long as you're not looking for hardcore gaming performance or the need to run the latest 3D design/CAD applications... A T601F is absolutely still relevant. Even more so if you do the 1066FSB and/or quad core mods.

^^^^^^

This. Times a zillion.

[RealBlackStuff]

@Pete B:
Ex-factory means exactly that: the HV150UX2-100 screen is coming from the factory with built-in LED-backlight.
ANY other 15" UXGA screens from anywhere else have ex-factory CCFL-backlight.
(Latin ex = coming from).
I don't sell them any more, but they are still available if you search hard enough, for prices up to $3-400.

My LED-mod consists of modifying only the LCD-cable and inverter.
What you receive back is ready to plug-in, and off you go.

[excelsior]

Hmmm.... a new HV150UX2-100 screen would sure be great to have, but the cost is too high for me.
In that case, would my best option be to just find a T61 with 4:3 screen, and forego building a T601F?

[theterminator93]

The benefit a T601F has over a T61 is the availability of IPS 4:3 panels in UXGA resolution. If you're content without, then a 4:3 T61 with a TN SXGA+ is the best that's out there.

[RealBlackStuff]

There never was a 15" T61, only 15" T60, 15" R60 and 15" R61 (very rare).
The 15" T60 can be modded to receive the 14.1" 4:3 T61 motherboards.
Or get just a 14.1" 4:3 T61 with XGA or SXGA+, not IPS.

AFAIK R60 has not been tried yet, but should also work.

[Pete B]

Thanks RBS, I'm going to get mine going with the old display then if I like it
enough will consider doing the upgrade. Thanks it is a really excellent mod.
I'm sure that I can go another 3 years with this system, if you look at single
thread speeds processors have not gotten a heck of a lot faster and I don't
have any demanding graphics apps.

[thinkpadcollection]

I have an R60 and the cage will not take 4:3 T61 board with 15" T60 interposer. Best thing is get a straight 15" T60 then mod with interposer and 4:3 14.1 T61 motherboard. Be warned that have to shim the T60 heatsink correctly to touch on discrete GPU right or use T61 heatsink with correct clamp parts. I did look into everything. I did not like how lenovo designed R60 heatsink clamp this way and sometimes parts are bit hard to find.

thinkpadcollection

[QWERTY Andreas]

Thanks RBS, I'm going to get mine going with the old display then if I like it
enough will consider doing the upgrade. Thanks it is a really excellent mod.
I'm sure that I can go another 3 years with this system, if you look at single
thread speeds processors have not gotten a heck of a lot faster and I don't
have any demanding graphics apps.

A I7-4600M is around 100% faster than a QX9300 in singlethreaded applications.
It is around 30% faster than a QX9300 in multithreaded applications.

[theterminator93]

A I7-4600M is around 100% faster than a QX9300 in singlethreaded applications.
It is around 30% faster than a QX9300 in multithreaded applications.

I'll add some (possibly too many) details since this may be an unfair comparison without knowing WHY it is this much faster. Note that I am not disputing this claim, merely trying to shed some light behind it, AND demonstrate why I think the initial "processors aren't much faster" claim was made.

The QX9300 is 2.53 GHz (no turbo boost) and the i7-4600M is 2.9 GHz base, up to 3.6 in turbo mode with one thread. So the "100% faster" claim is true, but you're looking at a 3.6GHz CPU being twice as fast as a 2.53GHz CPU...

Scaling them to the same clock speed, the i7-4600M is 28% faster on a clock-by-clock basis compared to the QX9300. Multithreaded (with two less physical cores, yet hyper-threaded), the i7-4600M is 17% faster clock-for-clock than the QX9300.

Now, when you scale up clock speeds due to better manufacturing process and smaller transistors - THERE's where the extra performance increase comes from. Processors have gotten boatloads more efficient (in terms of heat output and energy consumed) over the last few years for a given performance level - but the performance increases have been mostly by scaling up clock speeds and adding cores. Sure, 28% better performance per clock is nothing to scoff at; but consider that comparing Sandy Bridge (2600) single threaded performance to the latest Sky Lake (6700) there's only a 9% increase in clock-per-clock performance. 5 years for less than 10% is pretty pathetic compared to how it was 10 years ago...

For comparison's sake, look at the QX9300 and compare it to a CPU of only 3 years prior - the Pentium 4 3.8 - and see that single threaded performance doubled on a clock-by-clock basis between the P4 and C2X. Go back six years from the C2X and let's compare the P-III to it and we see that the C2X is 75% faster, clock-for-clock (since most of us already know the P4 was no good in clock-based performance comparisons).

I believe these help shadow the reality that CPU single-threaded performance hasn't really improved like we've seen in the past. Today the reality seems to be that a faster CPU is mostly that due to higher clock speed and more cores, not computing efficiency.

[Pete B]

Thanks RBS, I'm going to get mine going with the old display then if I like it
enough will consider doing the upgrade. Thanks it is a really excellent mod.
I'm sure that I can go another 3 years with this system, if you look at single
thread speeds processors have not gotten a heck of a lot faster and I don't
have any demanding graphics apps.

A I7-4600M is around 100% faster than a QX9300 in singlethreaded applications.
It is around 30% faster than a QX9300 in multithreaded applications.

You are comparing a very high clock rate dual core, to a true quad core, so the
100% figure is not surprising. I was also speaking in terms of systems that can be
purchased at a reasonable price.
Yes, there are exceptions with the best processors, but the earlier i7s were no
where near as good as that one and not much better than an X9000.
I see that you can buy a Dell 6440 with a 4600M and an asking price below $500
on ebay - might be something I should look into, that one does look rather beat up.

As far as the newer processors go the i7 2600 for desktops is one of my favorites
taking price/performance into consideration. It does take a big step up in performance
as does the 4600M as you point out.

Edit: I just read theterminator93's response and he really "got" what I was trying
to say. He makes good points about clock efficiency and how the newer parts
clock so high in turbo mode with only a single core active. The core CPU is a good
one but there have not been major architectural improvements over the years. I
think that bus and memory bandwidth increases have also helped.

I worked for much of my career in CPU design - VLIW supercomputer and IBM 370
architecture, dedicated microcoded graphics processors and several custom single
board computers.

[RMSMajestic]

If you want to use it for documents and web surfing/coding, get 8GB RAM and it's still a good machine, especially if P9700 is installed
but if you have any demand for gaming outside your home, then even W701 will do better than a T61 Franken

[QWERTY Andreas]

I know the clock-clock performance have not changed a lot. But i think it will still be worth taking the clockspeeds into account, because a X9100/QX9300 will have a hard time clocking that high - and if they did the heat would be...

If you want to use it for documents and web surfing/coding, get 8GB RAM and it's still a good machine, especially if P9700 is installed
but if you have any demand for gaming outside your home, then even W701 will do better than a T61 Franken

Then you just need this for the transportation: http://www.palleløfter.dk/ldpal_log.jpg

Anyway - i think the T61F with the advanced dock is a better option tbh: Easier to transport, but more power back home. The QX9300 is nearly as fast as the I7 820QM.

[Pete B]

Just to add to web surfing and document editing, I use engineering tools and lately
have been doing a lot of SPICE simulation work. The processor is not a limitation in
any way - any Core duo does fine. I also do loudspeaker simulation and again I
never feel limited in any way. I've not done board layout in quite some time but I'm
sure that the package I use would run fine on a Frankenpad and the UXGA would be
about as good as it gets in a laptop.
I use a UXGA IPS 20" display at my desk for schematic capture and layout.
The desktop that I used up until about a year ago had 4 GB and my current one has
12 GB so I know I can get by with 4 GB but am looking for 8 GB anyway.

I have a feeling that systems might be bottlenecked by memory bandwidth at this
point. My son asked for a Sony Playstation 4 this year and I took a look at the
design, 8 core AMD processor, AMD graphics, unified memory with 8 sticks
probably for a very high interleave factor resulting in much higher bandwidth than
usual. Seem to recall 136 GB/sec reported:
http://wccftech.com/sony-ps4-effective- ... u-scaling/

The 4600M does 25.6 GB/sec and the 800 MHz FSB systems do 6.4 GB/sec in
comparison.

[TuuS]

Hello Thinkpad fans,
Yes, where have I been all these years...but I'm just finding out now about the possibility of building a T60 with a T61 motherboard inside (Frankenpad). I've been enjoying my T60 for 10 years now, updating it every so often, but never thought of looking for an incremental improvement until now.

I'm just wondering now about the feasibility of finding a good IPS display attached to a T60 15" that can be reliable for a few years. Any parts out there are likely 10 years old now. That's really old, and I don't feel comfortable building something around a screen of that age.

The question I'm mulling around -- is building a Frankenpad still a reasonable option at this point-- or has it's time come and gone? Maybe that Retro Thinkpad will come out soon?

Hi Excelsior,

I received a PM from you this evening asking about batteries, however you have disabled your account from receiving private messages so I cannot reply. Can you either enable your private messager or send me another PM with your email address and I'll be happy to supply you with the batteries you need and discuss options for building a frankenpad too if you're interested.