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T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

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Mindfulness Quebec
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T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#1 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:27 pm

I recently configured two T61's (discrete) with 8GB of RAM and installed 64-bit Win-7. Both of them do a lot of stopping and buffering on CNN.com and MSNBC.com news programs. Further experiments with other T61 discrete graphics machines show the same result with Win-8.1 x64. Switching these laptops to 32-bit Windows 7 or 8.1 solves the problem. My W500 does not exhibit the problem. The problem occurs on CNN.com and MSNBC.com but not Foxnews.com. Anyone else with discrete T61's or Frankenpad T601F's having streaming issues with 64-bit Windows? Should I try Newsmax to confirm that the problem is confined to liberal news sites?
Last edited by Mindfulness Quebec on Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:58 am

What browser are you using?
Hopefully not that Micro$haft POS IE.
If Chrome, that is still a notorious RAM-eater.
Have you tried Firefox, Brave, Opera, Waterfox Classic?
Have you installed Adblock and Ublock?
Are you using a HDD or SSD?
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#3 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:35 am

RBS, I've tried a bunch of different browsers, and I'm using a Samsung 500GB SSD. Have you got a similar rig with 64 bit OS you could try yourself on CNN and MSNBC news sites? I must say, though, that I find the 61's a bit sluggish on 64 bit Windows anyway, they seem generally more responsive on the 32-bit OS. Think I'll forget about 64-bit for those systems---swapping to disk is unobtrusive when you have a good SSD anyway.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#4 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:07 am

The "oldest" W7/64-capable machines I have are an X240 and a T440p, no comparison with T61.
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#5 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:03 am

Well, I'm happy with the way the W500 works with Win 7 x64, but not the T61's. Annoyed now to be wasting money running 32-bit Windows on an 8GB Frankenpad. Just went to 8.1, by the way, with Classic Shell; very snappy performer and I can make my interface look like Win-98 SE if I want.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#6 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:03 am
Well, I'm happy with the way the W500 works with Win 7 x64, but not the T61's. Annoyed now to be wasting money running 32-bit Windows on an 8GB Frankenpad. Just went to 8.1, by the way, with Classic Shell; very snappy performer and I can make my interface look like Win-98 SE if I want.
which graphics do you have?
I am afraid if you are talking about the one with NVS140M, it might not have enough VRAM to handle those tasks properly. a 256MB version of that 140M should have no problems.
also try a lower screen resolution if you aren't on XGA or WXGA
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#7 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 pm

Interesting thought, kfzhu. Not sure if there was such a motherboard for the standard screen T61, i.e. was there a T61p version ... I did try lowering screen resolution, to no avail.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#8 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:57 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 pm
Interesting thought, kfzhu. Not sure if there was such a motherboard for the standard screen T61, i.e. was there a T61p version ... I did try lowering screen resolution, to no avail.
Nope such doesn't exist, at least not one that doesn't fail. Only the widescreen 15.4" T61p motherboards came with the 256MB VRAM. AFAIK these things need 4 VRAM chips to achieve 256MB of VRAM and there's simply no room for any 14" forms to have that. And that's kinda unfortunate because you absolutely need 256MB of VRAM for these video cards to do h264 hardware acceleration in YouTube for anything over 720p.
Open up HWMonitor or similar software and see your VRAM usage. If it's anything above 90%, that's your problem.
CNN is known to be a rather heavy website and always had been a benchmark for mobile phones' website loading speed
EDIT: Tried streaming with Quadro FX 360M 256MB over WSXGA+ and I have no problems whatsoever. So it could very well be your 128MB VRAM that's the issue
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#9 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:40 pm

KFZHU 1229: This guy on eBay https://www.ebay.ca/itm/333924370517 is selling a 61p machine that he says has a Quadro FX570 with 512 MB. The CPU is a slow one, which leads me to suspect it's not a safe manufacturing date (08/08, isn't it?) I'm not spending that kind of money for a motherboard that could go south at any second. Those chips are subject to the same issues as the 140, aren't they? Thanks for trying CNN, try also MSNBC if you like. I found it even worse.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#10 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:45 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:40 pm
KFZHU 1229: This guy on eBay https://www.ebay.ca/itm/333924370517 is selling a 61p machine that he says has a Quadro FX570 with 512 MB. The CPU is a slow one, which leads me to suspect it's not a safe manufacturing date (08/08, isn't it?) Those chips are subject to the same issues as the 140, aren't they? Thanks for trying CNN, try also MSNBC if you like. I found it even worse.
Okay well at that price, there's absolutely no reason why you should even think of buying it because it comes with crap CPU and crap screen (no good screens for 14" factors)
Also, the graphics on those is 512MB TOTAL VRAM (meaning that includes SHARED amount that the graphics can use from the system RAM as well, and that's slow as hell). The ACTUAL fast VRAM count is only 128MB, just like yours!
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#11 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:48 pm

Yeah, I looked it up and it's only 256 on that chip, as you say. I run two of these; one in 14" screen and one in Frankenpad configuration. I'll just stick with my 32-bit Win-8.1. I have a stack of these machines, so no worries about a graphics chip failing. And I have a widescreen 15-inch unit with safe date, too.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#12 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:48 pm
Yeah, I looked it up and it's only 256 on that chip, as you say. I run two of these; one in 14" screen and one in Frankenpad configuration. I'll just stick with my 32-bit Win-8.1.
no... It's 128! Quadro FX 570M can be equipped with either 128 or 256MB of VRAM! Again only the 15.4" motherboards with room for 4 RAM chips come with 256MB!
Disabling things like Windows aero in Windows 7 might help reduce the VRAM count, but well the VRAM problems with 128MB of VRAM is exactly what pushed me to a Precision M4300, with 256MB of VRAM and safe NVidia chip.
If you try that under Windows 10 it's even worse... GPU with 128MB of VRAM is only useful at all in Windows 10 for a display resolution of WXGA+ or lower.
I tried the GM965 iGPU as well, it just uses CPU to do all the video decoding which is fine, but another issue arises. There is a bug in the GM965 display driver that results in low bitrate in video playback. If the image of your video has lots of sharp and complex elements, the edges then can get blurry to the point of 480p, even though your actual video resolution is 1080p. Ironically the GM945 display driver has no such issues, but using a Merom based CPU to do this kind of tasks is a lot more painful with its 65nm node
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#13 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:14 pm

The ebay seller replied to me, and it's an 08/01 date on that box. So of no interest whatsoever :) Interesting what you say about the form factor and the amount of VRAM. Hence nothing in the standard format goes beyond 128 MB.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#14 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:16 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:14 pm
The ebay seller replied to me, and it's an 08/01 date on that box. So of no interest whatsoever :) Interesting what you say about the form factor and the amount of VRAM. Hence nothing in the standard format goes beyond 128 MB.
Well if there were any T61p boards in 15" form factor and has a safe date, then chances are it will have 256MB of VRAM. But we all know that didn't happen, and fitting a 15.4" board inside a 15" chassis is not fun at all.
In my opinion even if it were a top dog T61p, if it's anything short of a LED modded UXGA or QXGA IPS display, the price isn't anything near a buying option at all!
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#15 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:20 pm

The resale value of Frankenpads and hot-rodded T61's doesn't reflect what the builder often puts into them :D I've seen these machines listed over the years, and the seller rarely gets anything like what they're looking for.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#16 Post by TPFanatic » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:01 pm

If you have an Intel gfx T61 without native h.264 decoding, an option to get that is the Broadcom HD decoder. viewtopic.php?t=122222

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#17 Post by kfzhu1229 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:35 am

TPFanatic wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:01 pm
If you have an Intel gfx T61 without native h.264 decoding, an option to get that is the Broadcom HD decoder. viewtopic.php?t=122222
Huh that's interesting. Though the OP has NVS140M 128MB.
I wonder if that would solve the issue of even with putting a Penryn CPU in one of these things, the iGPU now works fine with 1080p videos, but the output bitrate is exceptionally poor.
I doubt it because in Windows 10, even the desktop wallpaper is rendered at an inferior bitrate (it looks like it came out in 24-bit colour palette, not 32-bit), thanks to the iGPU.
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#18 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:25 pm

STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES

Recall the OP, where I reported halting and buffering on CNS and MSNBC with Nvidia-equipped T61 main boards. Well, I formatted my other Frankenpad, which has integrated Intel graphics, with 64-bit Win 8.1. No halting or buffering. Not sure how to explain this, but there you have it.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#19 Post by kfzhu1229 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:14 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:25 pm
STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES STOP THE PRESSES

Recall the OP, where I reported halting and buffering on CNS and MSNBC with Nvidia-equipped T61 main boards. Well, I formatted my other Frankenpad, which has integrated Intel graphics, with 64-bit Win 8.1. No halting or buffering. Not sure how to explain this, but there you have it.
Well this is because with the existance of the NVS140M, the graphics chip will try to hardware decode your contents, but then it runs out of VRAM constantly. As such, you will have stutters now and then.
On the iGPU, the video decoding gets handed directly to the CPU, and providing that you have a powerful enough CPU to do this decoding, it will do it, but the graphics output bitrate is poor. Also, if you run a hot Merom CPU, it can get stressed real hard with this sorts of tasks.
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#20 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:25 pm

That's a T9500 CPU in there, thanks to Middleton bios. I was thinking along the lines you mention, that more work is being offloaded to the CPU. This system is actually quite responsive on 64-bit Windows.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#21 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:33 am

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:25 pm
That's a T9500 CPU in there, thanks to Middleton bios. I was thinking along the lines you mention, that more work is being offloaded to the CPU. This system is actually quite responsive on 64-bit Windows.
Well, that is if you stay with 7 or 8.1... If you step up to Windows 10, lots of graphical glitches start to appear here and there with that poor old graphics solution that Intel provided support for 5 years less than the NVS140M! And at anything above WXGA, the Windows 10's Aero effects (translucent glass) will make any Windows animations absolute slideshow until you disable those transparency. Pretty sure it will also lag horribly in Windows + Tab animations in Windows 7.
I guess I will try things like CNN on my Latitude D830 which has the NVS135M which has 128MB of VRAM. If it stutters there and not on the Quadro FX 360M then yeah surely it's the VRAM that's the problem.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#22 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:55 am

Do share your results.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#23 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:21 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:55 am
Do share your results.
Okay so this is interesting. I tried CNN.com and used the free live trial option to play a bit of real time stream (which is what I assume you are having trouble with), on this NVS135M with 128MB of VRAM, it plays just fine, albeit a few stutters happen near the beginning as the VRAM usage reaches an equilibrium. This is with a Core 2 Duo T8300, 6GB of RAM and in Windows 10 x64 with enhanced h264ify and adblock enabled, and this is under WUXGA. If a NVS135M can do it, surely a 140M can too, with it literally being twice as fast in raw performance.
Maybe you should try disabling Windows Aero if you are using Windows 7 when doing these sorts of things.
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#24 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:26 pm

I get the problem with Win 8.1, with no aero. I think it's some peculiarity of the T61 discrete motherboard that shows up on MSNBC and CNN only. It's not stutter; it can go for long pauses of 5 seconds or more while buffering. I think it's a flaw in the T61 'discrete' systems with 64-bit windows. The answer is to run the T61 on 32-bit Windows, where it's really frisky ... or use an integrated graphics board with 64-bit Windows, if you like. My Intel graphics-based Thinkpad plays everything I want on the Internet, including NHL hockey video at full screen.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#25 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:24 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:26 pm
I get the problem with Win 8.1, with no aero. I think it's some peculiarity of the T61 discrete motherboard that shows up on MSNBC and CNN only. It's not stutter; it can go for long pauses of 5 seconds or more while buffering. I think it's a flaw in the T61 'discrete' systems with 64-bit windows. The answer is to run the T61 on 32-bit Windows, where it's really frisky ... or use an integrated graphics board with 64-bit Windows, if you like. My Intel graphics-based Thinkpad plays everything I want on the Internet, including NHL hockey video at full screen.
That buffering you are talking about is in line with what happens when you run out of VRAM. On that NVS135M it plays fine, but as soon as I have some windows such as task manager on top of the video, it runs out of VRAM and video and audio go out of sync, and then a long pause of 5 seconds as if it is buffering, and then everything resyncs, and then repeats.
So, I think you have certain kind of software running that's eating away unnecessary amounts of VRAM.
But yeah I get you that getting 128MB of VRAM to work means you need every single megabyte of it available.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
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T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
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T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#26 Post by cadillacmike68 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:50 pm

Solution: don't watch cnn or pmsnbc. They are a waste of bandwidth anyway.
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#27 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:07 pm

Sorry to tell you this, Mike, but it's halting and buffering tonight on Fox as well. And very badly on Newsmax :) :) :) So the problem turns out to be apolitical after all.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#28 Post by cadillacmike68 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:02 pm

Mindfulness Quebec wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:07 pm
Sorry to tell you this, Mike, but it's halting and buffering tonight on Fox as well. And very badly on Newsmax :) :) :) So the problem turns out to be apolitical after all.
How's OAN? :P

Ok cool. I don't stream off the computer something I can watch on a larger TV. I suppose my systems would get slow as well, especially since the everyday use ones are all intel graphics, although all have 8GB RAM which the CPU will share with the video.

I have 500mbps here both directions and run strictly wired (Gigabit E-net) on the main systems.
600 600X
760LD FUBARd
T21 2647 T22 2647 1@ 1GHz SXGA+ 4 more; T23 2647 1@ 1.2GHz SXGA+ 3 more
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T41 T42 T43
T60 T61 8897 2.4GHz SXGA+; 8898 2.4Ghz; 6463 2@ WSXGA+; 7658 2.5GHz; T61p; 6 more T61s
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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#29 Post by Mindfulness Quebec » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:01 am

I run mostly wired too. Wi-fi at a distance of 5 ft from the router is probably unhealthy anyway. And, yes, I'm going to move the 8 GB of RAM to the 64 bit integrated graphics Frankie, since it's totally wasted on the 32-bit one with the Nvidia graphics.

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Re: T61 streaming problem with 64-bit Windows

#30 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue May 25, 2021 3:30 pm

So with my recent acquisition of an absolutely battered T61 14.1 widescreen and I have brought it back to usable condition with all sorts of handiwork, I have tried MSNBC on it with the NVS140M and the WXGA+ screen.
With Adblock on (MSNBC doesn't like it but they let you through eventually) the stream works just fine, but stutter happens occasionally. This is 32 bit Windows 10 though, but it's paired with a weak T7250 (and mind you that was an upgrade from the miserable T7100 chip) and 3GB of RAM, and middleton's BIOS as I am planning to put T8300 when it arrives.
Maybe look into other browsers if you still have problem with this? I just used the Chromium based Edge browser and with adblock it works just fine. Can't use google chrome though because of the 3GB of RAM.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Precision M4300 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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