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T61 buying advice

T60/T61 Series
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Garlic Bread
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T61 buying advice

#1 Post by Garlic Bread » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:47 pm

I am looking to buy a T61, and I have some questions.

First, screen options. I really miss the 4:3 aspect ratio, and I would love to own a laptop with such a screen. As far as i can tell 1400x1050 is the most common resolution for 4:3, but did higher resolutions exist? And did Lenovo offer these screens in IPS?

Second, GPUs. I want to be able to run two screens off of my laptop when it is docked, and I want to be able to play 720p videos on it. Will an NVS 140M dGPU be able to do that? Or do I need to hunt down a model with an FX 570M? I have heard terrible things about the NVS 140M, are they still dying at a higher rate than the other GPU options? Or have the faulty specimens died off a long time ago? And if an NVS 140M dies does it kill the motherboard too, or can the laptop still be used with the onboard X3100?

Third, CPU options. I have a T9500 sitting in a drawer that I would like to use for this project, but will I be able to install it in a system that originally came with a Merom-based CPU?

And lastly there is the question of T61 vs. T61p. I have seen listings of p-models with just the base X3100 GPU and non-p models with the FX 570M. What is the difference? All of the p-models I have seen has been the larger 15" models, but again I know that 15" non-p models exists as well. Which of the two models should I be looking for?

Thanks!

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Re: T61 buying advice

#2 Post by theterminator93 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm

The T61 was mostly a 16:10 machine, with 2 models (14.1" and 15.4") coming in widescreen. There is one other 14.1" model that is 4:3 aspect ratio - but the screens (for all flavors) are TN panels. The 1400x1050 is the highest resolution available for the 14.1" T61.

There are 14.1" 4:3 T61ps with the FX570m, but unlike their 15.4" cousins they only have 128 MB VRAM, compared to the 256 MB. The NVS140m also has 128 MB VRAM (across all models). Both are susceptible to the nVidia flaw - but with these machines now being 13-14 years old, the nVidia flaw has probably claimed most systems it was "destined" to at this point. Other ways of system death are just as likely now.

To get a system with the FX570m, it had to be a -p. If it's not labeled as a -p and has an FX570m, it's been modified along the way. The NVS was the dGPU for non-p models.

You can minimize the likelihood the GPU will act up by undervolting it with a modded BIOS, and using fresh thermal paste and a more aggressive fan speed curve in TPFanControl. Beyond that, not much.

Unlike some of the newer ThinkPads that came with Optimus (like the xx20 series), these only have one GPU. If the GPU (either FX/NVS/GMA) dies, that's it - motherboard is trash.

You can put an X9000 in it with no mods, but the best option IMO is a T9900 with the easily performed 1066 FSB mod. This also lets you use various GPU undervolting/overclocking BIOSes. A T9500 will work fine in an earlier Merom board (had one in my first T61p for years) but you will get "thermal sensing error" at POST (can be bypassed with ESC). Flash the Middleton BIOS to get rid of that.

I have a 14.1" NVS motherbaord in my FrankenPad, which I modded for a T9900 and used the overclocked and undervolted BIOS mod. It's "okay" at YouTube but it's a stretch. 360p and 480p are about the most it can handle, TBH. You may have better luck with a ligher weight OS than Windows. I also have a complete 14.1" 4:3 T61p with the 128 MB FX570m, but I haven't put an OS on it yet. I might restore it to XP to see how it handles YouTube, just out of curiosity.

If you are set on a T61, I honestly would recommend a T61p with the 15.4" WUXGA screen. These are actually pretty decent TN panels, there are more of them out there, and the performance/screen real estate bests the 14.1" models easily. But - if you've got your heart set on a 4:3... you can consider building a FrankenPad (14.1" T61 motherboard in a 15" T60 shell). These have the IPS UXGA display, and you can fit it with an aftermarket LED AFFS panel too.
T480 with T25 keyboard | T25 | W520 i7-2860QM·Quadro 2000m·IPS FHD | T601F T9900·NVS 140m·LED AFFS UXGA
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Re: T61 buying advice

#3 Post by fissionpowered » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:40 pm

[Edit: I put something wrong here ... edited to avoid confusion.]

In any case, I just picked up a T61 that I've decided I don't have a use for. It's a 15.4" 1200x800, with the Nvidia graphics (the 140M). I put a 240GB ssd in it and have ordered a T9300 and 4GB of ram that should arrive shortly.

I can't comment on if the 140m's are still dying, I'll defer to someone with more expertise. Mine seems to work well, for whatever that's worth.

I got a pretty good deal on the base machine, so would be willing to part with it for a bit below "market".

Feel free to PM me.
Last edited by fissionpowered on Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theterminator93
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Re: T61 buying advice

#4 Post by theterminator93 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:53 pm

T61 was the last system that had a 4:3 display. xx00 series were all 16:10. T410 was the last 16:10; W/T510 and later were 16:9.
T480 with T25 keyboard | T25 | W520 i7-2860QM·Quadro 2000m·IPS FHD | T601F T9900·NVS 140m·LED AFFS UXGA
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Re: T61 buying advice

#5 Post by fissionpowered » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:16 pm

Ah, yes. My mistake!

Garlic Bread
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Re: T61 buying advice

#6 Post by Garlic Bread » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:25 pm

Great info, thanks a lot! I had very little experience with Core 2 era laptops going into this, and reading up on them now is actually somewhat challenging with all the modded and refurbished PCs being sold and resold by people who are for the most part not aware of what they are selling. I might look into a frankenpad if I stumble upon a good T60 case, but for now I think I'll focus on finding a 4:3 T61.

What would an appropriate RAM kit for a modded 1066 mhz FSB system look like? Does it still take the original 667 mhz RAM, or would I need to hunt down a 1066 mhz kit?

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Re: T61 buying advice

#7 Post by kfzhu1229 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:58 pm

Garlic Bread wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:25 pm
Great info, thanks a lot! I had very little experience with Core 2 era laptops going into this, and reading up on them now is actually somewhat challenging with all the modded and refurbished PCs being sold and resold by people who are for the most part not aware of what they are selling. I might look into a frankenpad if I stumble upon a good T60 case, but for now I think I'll focus on finding a 4:3 T61.

What would an appropriate RAM kit for a modded 1066 mhz FSB system look like? Does it still take the original 667 mhz RAM, or would I need to hunt down a 1066 mhz kit?
Well AFAIK there are no 4:3 T61 motherboard that features a NVS graphics that's not doomed for failure, so if you want h264 hardware accelerated video playback, the 16:10 boards are your only choice, and you absolutely have to mod to get them to fit inside a 4:3 chassis.
720p videos work on the NVS140M, but for 1080p videos you might want the 15.6" T61p board with the FX 570M, not because of the chip itself, but rather that's the only version with 256MB of VRAM and I learnt the hard way that's kinda needed for smooth 1080p playback in anything outside of VLC player.
And tbh I think people shouldn't push people new to this Core 2 platform to go with the 1066Mhz FSB mod. Since he has a T9500 anyway he should warm up to the platform with the existing T9500 and then consider exotic stuff like Q9000 later down the line.
In my experience with 1066mhz FSB modding, getting the clock generator to overclock to 1066mhz FSB isn't the hard part. The hard part is finding RAM (especially 4GB sticks) that actually allow you to modify the SPD!
For the vast amount of 4GB DDR2 sticks I have, none of them have unlocked SPD! And with 4GB RAM sticks extremely rare these days anyway it's hard to find a non China special one already.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
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theterminator93
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Re: T61 buying advice

#8 Post by theterminator93 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:01 pm

When you 1066 mod the T61 you need to reflash the SPD of the RAM to use higher timings, since it will be running at a higher speed than it "thinks" it is. So you need to find RAM that is SPD unlocked that allows you to flash it.

The first (and only) 4GB DDR2 sticks I had were easily reflashed. Paid $70 for the pair. 8)

My early 08 dated NVS FrankenPad has had no GPU issues. It is no more "doomed" than any other system I have from that era. The improved performance makes it more usable than having a GPU that is slightly less likely to experience a catastrophic failure.

Doing the 1066 mod does NOT mean automatically going to a quad. Going to a quad is quite a bit more involved than just doing the FSB mod.
T480 with T25 keyboard | T25 | W520 i7-2860QM·Quadro 2000m·IPS FHD | T601F T9900·NVS 140m·LED AFFS UXGA
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Re: T61 buying advice

#9 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:14 pm

I had a 4:3 Nvidia Merom T61 that I brain-swapped with a T60. Sadly it has a USB over current error on the left-hand Type A. Might swap them back for the hecc of it, but neither see any use, they just look pretty. :cry:

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Re: T61 buying advice

#10 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:54 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:Well AFAIK there are no 4:3 T61 motherboard that features a NVS graphics that's not doomed for failure
OBJECTION!
There are still NOS (New Old Stock) T61 4:3 motherboards with NVS140M available, that were made after the nVidia problem was solved!
Forum member TuuS is still selling these boards!
And I am happy to support him in this on my website: https://theboardroom.info/t61mobo.html

Those mobos are THE choice for building a 15" T601F FrankenPad.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
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Re: T61 buying advice

#11 Post by kfzhu1229 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:49 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:54 am
There are still NOS (New Old Stock) T61 4:3 motherboards with NVS140M available, that were made after the nVidia problem was solved!
Forum member TuuS is still selling these boards!
And I am happy to support him in this on my website: https://theboardroom.info/t61mobo.html

Those mobos are THE choice for building a 15" T601F FrankenPad.
I'm aware of those but those are actually 4:3 boards? I thought they are 16:10 14.1" boards
But what are the chances of finding one on a ThinkPad that you buy on eBay? Like is it possible to find one on eBay that had the motherboard replacement covered by Lenovo and they replaced with the good one?
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
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T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
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Re: T61 buying advice

#12 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:55 pm

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:49 pm

I'm aware of those but those are actually 4:3 boards?
Yes they are. I've bought several in the past, as have many others. Pretty sure TuuS only had these as NOS, not any of the widescreen ones.
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Re: T61 buying advice

#13 Post by unixed » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 pm

If you want to run two screens when docked you can try and get the 2503 advanced dock and search the forum for graphics cards which can be used with it.
If the NVIDIA GPU fails you can most likely still use the T61 docked (using an external GPU), see the sticky at the top of this forum.
The T61 does not have dual graphics, it has either the integrated GMA X3100 built into the GM965 chipset or else a NVIDIA GPU.
The T9500 can be coaxed into running both cores at 2.8GHz, so-called dual IDA. This requires using a modified BIOS (Middleton) as noted previously.
Although the 14.1" T61s do come in 4:3 format the only easily used screens are TN rather than IPS and is one reason for the popularity of frankenpads.

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Re: T61 buying advice

#14 Post by Garlic Bread » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:07 pm

I just got a package today! I bought a lot of untested T61s, two model 8896 with 14.1" 4:3 screens and two 15.4" widescreen ones (a 6464 and a 6466), and to my surprise they all work just fine. I was not too worried about the possibility of them being defective as I plan to board swap one of each, but oh boy these are some dirty laptops! From the looks of it one 14" and both 15" PCs will be fit for the project once I have cleaned the nasty gunk off of them, but one of the 14-inchers has been in the hands of a child for quite some time and will not clean up very nice. Time will tell.

I plan to get an Core 2 Extreme X9000 and a beefy W500 heatsink for the 15.4" that I chose to proceed with, but whether I should keep the 1280x800 screen or try to get my hands on a 1680x1050 is not yet decided. The 1280x800 will be a lot easier to run games on if I so chose, but the 1680x1050 will look nicer when I run spreadsheets. The choices! Where would one go about sourcing a replacement screen for a laptop this old? I have found a lot of old guides that recommend laptopscreens.com, but nothing on their page seems to be in stock anymore.

Again, thank you for your help :thumbs-UP:

ajkula66
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Re: T61 buying advice

#15 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:36 pm

Garlic Bread wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:07 pm


I plan to get an Core 2 Extreme X9000 and a beefy W500 heatsink for the 15.4" that I chose to proceed with,
Your ThinkPad your call, but I'd advise against X9000 at this day and age and am also not necessarily a fan - pun intended - of the W500 heatsink since it's incredibly difficult to get it to sit correctly IME. Unless you're intent on overclocking the system - which I wouldn't be doing on a "61 nowadays - X9000 is a waste of money. T9300 will do just fine and run a lot cooler.
but whether I should keep the 1280x800 screen or try to get my hands on a 1680x1050 is not yet decided.
1680x1050, as long as it's LG and not Samsung. You can thank me later... :D
Where would one go about sourcing a replacement screen for a laptop this old?
Post a WTB (want to buy) ad in the forum's Marketplace and someone will come to the rescue sooner or later.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


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Re: T61 buying advice

#16 Post by Garlic Bread » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:31 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:36 pm
Your ThinkPad your call, but I'd advise against X9000 at this day and age and am also not necessarily a fan - pun intended - of the W500 heatsink since it's incredibly difficult to get it to sit correctly IME. Unless you're intent on overclocking the system - which I wouldn't be doing on a "61 nowadays - X9000 is a waste of money. T9300 will do just fine and run a lot cooler.
You are right, the X9000 is a dumb idea, but strangely appealing even if I absolutely don't need the extra speed that it could potentially provide. I have seen many users going with the T9300 instead of the T9500, is there a reason for this? Is the T9300 significantly cooler than a T9500? I get that the 100 mhz you gain by going with the T9500 will barely be measurable in use, but it is 100 mhz for next to nothing none the less.
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:36 pm
1680x1050, as long as it's LG and not Samsung. You can thank me later... :D
Noted! But say, is there a problem with the Samsung panels? Or are LG just better?
ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:36 pm
Post a WTB (want to buy) ad in the forum's Marketplace and someone will come to the rescue sooner or later.
Will do! It is really cool that this community shares knowledge AND trade parts.

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Re: T61 buying advice

#17 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:15 am

Garlic Bread wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:31 am


You are right, the X9000 is a dumb idea, but strangely appealing even if I absolutely don't need the extra speed that it could potentially provide.
I wouldn't say it's a dumb idea - been there and done that more times than I'd dare count - but given the age of these systems there's not much to be gained in real-life performance nowadays.
I have seen many users going with the T9300 instead of the T9500, is there a reason for this? Is the T9300 significantly cooler than a T9500? I get that the 100 mhz you gain by going with the T9500 will barely be measurable in use, but it is 100 mhz for next to nothing none the less.
T9300 is "the sweet spot" of performance/heat/price for these machines, at least IME/IMO. If you can find a T9500 for a couple of Euros more...sure, why not.
Noted! But say, is there a problem with the Samsung panels? Or are LG just better?
LG is easier on the eyes, and has better colour reproduction in my view. Some would disagree, but that's where I stand.

Happy upgrading!
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: T61 buying advice

#18 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:20 am

All Samsung screens of that generation were crap.
And if you hear this from our expert George, you better believe it!
And T9500 is way overpriced (almost double), compared to the almost identical T9300.
Plus the T9300 runs a bit cooler as well.
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Re: T61 buying advice

#19 Post by unixed » Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:31 am

If you get a WSXGA+ (1680x1050) you can set the resolution to WXGA (1280x800) when you play games.
While the WSXGA+ is a good fit for the 15.4" T61, you should also be aware that you have WUXGA (1920x1200) options available. They are not the best option for everyone since the image and text are smaller and that is more of an issue on TN screens (the only ones available) with lower contrast levels and less deep blacks compared to IPS. There are plenty of posts regarding the best TN screens. There is little point in taxing your GPU if you don't require the higher resolution.

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Re: T61 buying advice

#20 Post by kfzhu1229 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:52 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:15 am
T9300 is "the sweet spot" of performance/heat/price for these machines, at least IME/IMO. If you can find a T9500 for a couple of Euros more...sure, why not.
I agree with this. Besides, there's also a high chance of fakes with X9000 or T9500, lesser chance of that with T9300 and very unlikely with T8300 (though you may get BGA converted chips)
If you are lucky and found any one of T9300, T9500 or X9000 stock sitting inside a laptop that you happen to have, then congratulations, you got a jackpot, and you might as well use it.
ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:15 am
LG is easier on the eyes, and has better colour reproduction in my view. Some would disagree, but that's where I stand.
RealBlackStuff wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:20 am
All Samsung screens of that generation were crap.
And if you hear this from our expert George, you better believe it!
I agree with this as well. I have had terrible experiences with pretty much all Samsung panels except for one panel out of all Samsung panels from around 2001-2007.
The XGA Samsung panels on T2x are an absolute disgrace to look at, compared to the older XGA panels found on the likes of a 390X or 600, or even competitors such as the Latitude C6xx screens (which are totally functional on a T2x). Terrible viewing angles and very washed out colours, that is if the screen is alive at all!
And it's not just Samsung panels with ThinkPad FRU that's bad, I have a Dell OEM Samsung screen that's terrible too!
I have had 4 LTN154U2-L06 panels. Those are 15.4" WUXGA panels that works perfectly fine on a T61 widescreen if the inverter bracket is stripped, and unexpected things happen.
Even for a WUXGA panel, the viewing experience is actually very noticibly worse than my WSXGA+ that is LG LP154WE2-TLB1. 400:1 contrast ratio is rather disappointing for such an expensive screen and a few degrees less vertical viewing angle means it's harder to get a good viewing spot on the screen without the top or bottom fading. And on top of that, it's dimmer.
Screen 1: top right corner micro cracked (design flaw). No black spots or any physical signs of damage, but screen is extremely fuzzy and it's only when I tore the screen open I notice the piece is missing
Screen 2: Extremely yellowed, backlight dead
Screen 3: Barely used (LCD connector popped loose very early on the life of the laptop and it was always used with an external monitor). Backlight failing after just 1 month of use! Replaced the backlight and then a drop of the laptop meant the top right corner micro cracked too, even though the laptop itself is practically unscathed.
Screen 4: Moderately used, backlight starts pink when you start using the screen regularly, and the pink hue disappears when you leave it for a month unused.
There are some early 15.4" Samsung WXGA panels that are pretty good, certainly compared to the later WXGA panels found on the T6x generation. But even then, I have had the Taiwanese Chunghua branded screen from a Satellite A70 that's better in every single way.

I have had good luck with LG screens from this era. Even the 14.1" WXGA+ ones are alright. CMO/Chi Mei screens from this era are either good or very bad, depending on the screen you are getting.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Precision M4300 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

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