Why T60P is cheaper than T43P (or T42p)?

[mzd]

The price of Lenovo-IBM laptop is so strang. T60P is even cheaper than some T43P (or T42p).

[christopher_wolf]

The same thing happened when the t43 was released; some T43 models were less expensive than a similar T42 analog...From what I am thinking, it seems to be a business tactic to get the newer models out to the consumers quicker and increase the volume of sales.

[Rose]

... or simply the fact that components and production is cheaper.

[christopher_wolf]

OK, not likely; but I don't think that is the point here.

This is more of a business move as far as I can see; I am going to bet that they know what they are doing. Besides, there is another thread here about that...

Can you scientifically backup that so-called "fact"? Do you know of the R&D Engineers who spent their time and work on it and can they attest to it? If there isn't sufficient evidence, it is only an opinion or hypothesis.

[Rose]

OK, not likely; but I don't think that is the point here.

why wouldnt it be?
Besides, if Google is now bying in their apps into the factory installation image, Lenovo is getting payed something. You can be so sure about that.

[christopher_wolf]

Yes, they are getting paid something, but I don't think it is a huge amount of money; certainly nothing that would tip the scales of profit on the larger scale of things. If I don't want something on my system, I end up uninstalling it; I couldn't care less what bells and whistles they put on besides the ThinkVantage, Access IBM, and R&R stuff which turn out to be very useful.

About the quality; I assume little, if anything, has changed. The same thing was seen with the T43 and the T42; there were questions about quality, fears about it being tainted by Lenovo, etc....And it turned out just fine, probably better, than what one could have expected. Quality issues were non-manifest for the most part and I can't see how there would be any raging issues about quality on the T60.

[FragrantHead]

IBM have always done this. I reckon it has to do with them being chiefly a corporate supplier. Although I do not work for one, I think big corporations probably standardise on a particular model for some time, for which they will prepare installation scripts or hard disk (e.g. Ghost) images containing their software and security solution. In order to deploy additional machines seamlessly, they will require the exact same model they used before. This is how IBM/Lenovo gets away with not lowering prices. Although cheaper / better hardware is available, the total cost of ownership for corporations will be lower buying the older model that they already have a prepared software installation for. Makes sense from a corporate point of view, but it never makes sense for a consumer not to buy the latest, more powerful yet cheaper machine.

[Smilodon]

It seems to me there's a significant difference between the T60 and the T60p. For example, the the T60's max addressable memory is 3 GB, even though you can physically install 4 GB. The T60p's max addressable memory, on the other hand, is 4 GB. In the Tabook's specs for the T60p, it says max memory is 4 GB, and then there's a star. If you follow the star, it says on the T60 the max is 3 GB.

In addition, both of the T60p's memory slots support 667 MHz, whereas the T60 has one that supports 667 MHz and another that supports only 533 MHz. So if you're going to use more than 1 GB on a T60, the memory speed is aligned to 533 MHz. On the T60p, you don't have to compromise memory speed for extra RAM.

There many other areas where the T60p has better specs, such the FireGL video card, etc.

[donking!]

As far as max memory on the T60 and T60p go, I don't see where the note is you mention. In the Tabook there is a footnote 31, not a star, which says that on the T60 "series" the maximum addressable memory is 3GB. Footnote 31 is appended to the memory specifications for both the T60 and the T60p. So I take it to refer to max memory on both models. Also, I read T60 "series" as meaning all models of the T60 (p included).

Also in both the T60 brochure and the T60p brochure Lenovo has footnotes which repeat this statement. It says there is only 3GB of addressable memory, due to the 32bit PC architecture.

On the Lenovo web site, I read at one point that in order to get 3GB of memory you will have to install a 2GB sodimm clocked at 533mhz and that will force all the memory in both slots to clock out at 533mhz. I don't know why Lenovo would say this, since as far as I can tell the only 2GB sodimm available is PC2-5300. Also I can't find where this statement is anymore. Perhaps Lenovo's taken it down.

In any case, Lenovo didn't say one slot is 533mhz and the other is 667mhz. They just said (for a reason I don't understand) that you'd have to use a 533mhz sodimm. Lenovo didn't explain itself well on this point. But I don't see that it suggests that one slot is different from the other.

Contradictorily, if you look at the specifications on the web site, for the T60 it says the max memory is 3GB and for the T60p it says 4GB. But both have the same footnote 8: "For models with 4GB maximum memory, accessible memory will be less than 4GB depending on the system configuration." Is is not explained what these different system configurations would be.

On the other hand, Lenovo's claim that the 3GB limit is due to the 32bit PC architecture is not exactly right. This came up in this forum positing:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=19012.

Which refers people to this article:

http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/iangblog/2 ... s3gbenough

Basically whether or not a 32bit system can address 4GB depends on the chipset. Some have more that 32 pins for the processor and can do it. Others don't. The T60 and the T60p both have the same chipset. So it seems like whatever the answer is about how much memory they can address, it should be the same for both.

Overall, it looks like Lenovo is saying 3GB max for all models.

[JaneL]

This is how IBM/Lenovo gets away with not lowering prices.

Take it from me, big corporations do not pay the prices you see on the manufacturers websites.

[christopher_wolf]

Nonny is right about that; bulk purchase discounts, special multi-year contracts, etc...It isn't necessarily a method to get large corporations buying the systems. The business-to-business relation between a laptop maker and a corporation that needs a fleet of laptops have always been slightly different from those of the personal user market.

[JaneL]

bulk purchase discounts, special multi-year contracts, etc...

Channel pricing, negotiated configurations and rates, leased equipment, etc... I used to do this for a living for a Large company.

[FragrantHead]

So, nonny, do you think I am at least right about large corporations sticking to a particular model for a longish time, rather than always buying the latest?

Also, would the prices you see on the web not at least have some sort of relationship to how prices for large corporate customers are arrived at? Maybe IBM / Lenovo couldn't maintain a good (for them) negotiated rate, if comparable models on the web dropped too close or below it?

Or does it have to do with volume? Prices overall have been falling year by year, so when new models come out they tend to be (slightly) cheaper. At the same time the older models keep being produced at lower volume, which keeps them relatively more expensive. Like Christopher says, they may be doing this for volume management? If that's the case though, we still haven't answered who keeps buying the older models at all.

I'm scratching my head. Like Christopher says, these people must know what they're doing. Another thing that comes to mind is that big customers might be extremely conservative and prefer a model thats been out for a while and is fully debugged. It reminds me of a customer we were involved with 2 years ago. They had a choice between Alpha and Itanium database servers, supplied by HP. They chose the Alpha, because they didn't trust the newer Itanium architecture to be as reliable. Prior to buying, I had to arrange a demonstration and performance test with our software to compare samples of each server. Ironically my laptop performed slightly better than either of them. I think the demo servers may have been somewhat old and my laptop new at the time, but I still have a wry smile thinking about it. The amount of money ran into hundreds of thousands for 2 pairs of redundant servers and 2 RAID arrays. I would have thought at least some of it went for performance, but it arguably all went towards reliability in that case.

[JaneL]

So, nonny, do you think I

To answer your first four questions from my experience which may be different from someone who had a less competent account manager handling their account:

yes - change to an image that will work across a large corporation in many locations isn't something that is done overnight, and it has to be certified carefully - change is expensive and introduces potential for problems

only in the sense that price drops in general were passed along automatically before they appeared on the web

no because price drops in general were passed along automatically before they appeared on the web

yes