Thinkpads Forum

I contacted Lenovo today and got a shipping quote of 3/24 for a T60p 200794U. That's not bad at all but I wonder if it's realistic. Just gotta decide if it's what I want to do, it's between the T60p and the MacBook Pro with very similar specs.

Perhaps you might not agree that there is a world of difference between the mac and the pc. If you need a pc computer now, I can't see how you can go wrong with the T60p. It will be the top of the line, until of course when Merom comes out in the second half of the year (with 64-bit processing).

I did just the opposite of what you're contemplating!

Just 10 days short of my Macbook Pro shipping, I cancelled my (2x2Ghz, 2GB, 100GB @7200rpm) MBP and ordered a T60p (2007C8U: 2x2.16Ghz, 2GB, 100GB @7200rpm) instead. There were many reasons for this, but long story short, I primarily needed a fast x86 laptop to run GNU/Linux, and I decided that the T60p was a better fit for me.

Numerous articles on Apple's unfriendliness toward their OS's free software roots helped my decision. I'd suggest that---everything else being equal---you go for the machine with the software that appeals most to you.

(And hello ThinkPad forums!)

Personally after inspecting the internals of the macbook pro through the repair guide, I would really not consider it if your main use goes farther than sitting on your desk each night. The durability isn't there. There is basically no harddrive protection. The harddrive is mounted at the corner of the metal frame under the left palm area. No rubber rails, no cage, nothing. Just 4 orings around the screws to lessen mechanical vibration.

Here is a image cut from the apple repair gude to show what I am talking about. One drop of the laptop, and your data is TOAST.
http://www.t3flange.com/wtf.jpg

This also goes on top of the fact that the aluminum case is one of the easiest things on the planet to dent. It is paper thin.

Then there is the palm rest corrosion issue. Aluminum + body moisture (water and salt) makes those things look nastey after about 1-2 years. They sell palm rest sticker to cover this up since there seems to be a large amount of the market in need of this.

Not for the faint of heart, lol
http://e-scribe.com/misc/aluminum/top_view.jpg

Just google image search "powerbook pitting".

The specs are nice, but the whole package is just a bunch of fluff. It has no purpose in the business world

I'm not a stranger to either the T series Thinkpad or the Powerbook now MacBook Pro, I've had more than one of each. I'm very comfortable with both platforms and have the software I need and use for both.
One of the pulls of the MacBook Pro for me is the new display, it is absolutely fantastic. It is just as bright as a good external LCD display. Now I have read that the display on the 15" T60 is nicer than past T series displays but I don't know how much nicer as I can't see it in person yet. Certainly the T series is more robust for traveling but I'm not so hard on my laptops and I do use it at home more than anywhere else. It's really a choice between two very good products. I was expecting to be told something like a 6-8 week lead time for the T60p but when I was quoted just about 3 weeks I was pleasantly surprised. It is the same lead time for the MacBook Pro.

pundit, I too am on the fence between the MBP and a T60 (been on order since beginning of Feb. - not due until 3/26).

I found your article onT60p vs MBP an eye-opener.

My biggest concerns over the T60 have to do with quality/reliability/performance. I have three Apple machines and have been very impressed. I had two Thinkpad (both T43s) and they stunk bad in so many ways.

I am hanging in there with Lenovo, though, for one more try...

Perhaps the solution for the pitting would be to put some kind of protector on the palm rest. Something clear that you can stick on it, something similar to screen protector.

Personally, I do like the new mac pro. It looks nice and specifications are pretty good. The only draw back is that they are not as user serviceable as Thinkpads AND they do not have trackpoint.

I agree with fullauto - the T43 was terrible in many respects. I've also read several posts complaining that the X41 is having more problems than the X40, so I blame this partially on Lenovo and partly on Intel's Sonoma.

I have BOTH a T60 as well as a T42 on order, and I've owned three recent Powerbooks.

the biggest problem on the T43 is the fan noise and capacitor noise (when I'm scrolling on a page it is ear piercing). the 2010 error on the hdd is also a pain, and my battery life is much worse on a T43.

overall, I'm not a fan of the new T60 look but it felt fine at CES. the keyboard was good though I missed the old trackbuttons.

I saw the MBP at MacWorld and again locally and was very impressed with the brightness of the display, BUT the vetical viewing angles were terrible (even more noticeable because the top lid can only be opened to 120 rather than 135 degrees). it was also EXTREMELY hot and I hated the 1) lack of a modem, 2) inability to dual-boot XP, 3) short battery life, 4) lack of a pc card slot, and 5) stability problems during transition to x86 (just try two-finger scrolling in Word)... the list goes on but you get the point.

anyway, Pundit made the right move, especially given IBM's open minded stance on non-MS operating systems.

just a note to those looking at the MBP, this thing runs hotter than any other laptop I have ever used.

Much of the time I use the T42p on my lap, no problems with it at all. The past couple days with a friends MBP, no way in HECK could I use it on my lap. I haven't run a system check to check CPU or GPU temp, but to the touch on the bottom it is almost TOO hot to touch.

Check them out in the store, put your hand under one. Historically this has been a problem with PB's, but I think this one takes the cake,

or COOKs the cake. Just and FYI

OK, this may draw some flack but... I stopped in the local Office Depot last night and actually got to see and use a Z60t which has the new keyboard (like the T60).

To me the new buttons, key coloration etc. looked way better in life than in pictures. I actually liked the squared off TouchPoint buttons and the little "pill" buttons for audio volume and Access looked fine.

Man, I just hope they did something about that motherfreak'n fan...

fullauto wrote:I found your article onT60p vs MBP an eye-opener.

My biggest concerns over the T60 have to do with quality/reliability/performance. I have three Apple machines and have been very impressed. I had two Thinkpad (both T43s) and they stunk bad in so many ways.

It wasn't as much an article as me trying to reason with myself. I really wanted the shiny-glowey-LED'd machine, and was experiencing withdrawal symptoms. But I'm glad it helped. At the end of it all, I wanted to use Free software, and numerous articles on Apple's one-way "We take your free code and build our OS, but won't contribute anything back to you" scheme left a bad taste in my mouth. I concur with hoya's words on this, "... IBM's open minded stance on non-MS operating systems."

With regards to quality/reliability/performance of the T60p, I have high hopes. I've used a T43p for a while and I must say it was very very good. I am a bit of a klutz, and I have more faith in the ThinkPad taking a beating over a few years than I have the Macbook Pro.

nikemen wrote:Historically this has been a problem with PB's, but I think this one takes the cake,

or COOKs the cake.

Shouldn't that be BAKES the cake?

pundit wrote:I really wanted the shiny-glowey-LED'd machine, and was experiencing withdrawal symptoms.

Pundit, I also read and enjoyed your rationalizations. Here are some of my own rationalizations:

I'm in NYC and spend a lot of time working in cafes. Every cooling coolster and his pet mouse in these scenes has a PowerBook, soon to be MacBooks, no doubt. On top of that, I'm getting into doing creative visual work, in addition to the writing I already do. As you know, in the creative world Apples are "the only computer to have." It's just so old.

Certainly when the current design on the PowerBooks came out, lo many a year ago, I thought they looked pretty cool. But now I look at people and I think they look like they're in the creative ghetto. Frankly, when you see them in mass, glowing Apple's everywhere, they start to look really cheap and commercial. I'm bored with Apple's slick designs.

On the other hand, the ThinkPad is a top of the line notebook, with a more subtle but still solid design, and it's not so ubiquitous (at least in the circles I float in). I'm just looking forward to showing up in these all Apple circles and committing the biggest possible faux pas, by having a PC. I'm also looking forward to dual booting OS X and XP and freaking Apple people out when they see that.

Anyway, that may all be fantasy in my head. But hey, we're talking rationalizations, right?

P.S. I do have more substantive technical reasons for preferring the PC, Windows, and the Linux possibilities. And the famous ThinkPad keyboard appeals to me a great deal. And I totally agree that the widescreen form factor is not always the best. Frankly, for page layout stuff that I have to do, I find the extra verticle height to me more useful (which I think is funny since Apple is so much supposed to be the "media person" computer). (I also admit that at home I have PowerMac G4, which I'm happy with for it's dedicated video editing purpose. So I may not only be a fellow rationalizer, but also a hypocrite.)

donking! wrote:Pundit, I also read and enjoyed your rationalizations. Here are some of my own rationalizations:

... snip ...

Anyway, that may all be fantasy in my head. But hey, we're talking rationalizations, right?

Yours were most amusing as well. Now here's more; speaking of fantasies in our heads.

A fair chunk of my draw toward the MBP (and a cause for much grief after I cancelled) was a desperate attempt to have something in common with a specific denizen of the creative ghetto you speak of---an enticing artsy type.

I'm clearly from the other side of the fence---the science geek. The lowly science geek still faithful to his plain black computer.

pundit wrote:a desperate attempt to have something in common with a specific denizen of the creative ghetto you speak of---an enticing artsy type.

I'm clearly from the other side of the fence---the science geek. The lowly science geek still faithful to his plain black computer.

Okay, this is getting waaaaaayyy off topic, and I know you didn't ask, but I say: Up with geekiness!

You have to get said denizen to see that your geeky devotion to the plain (but sleek) black ThinkPad is way hipper and more creative than any low down run of the mill MacBook (come on it sounds like a hamburger!).

The trick with hip is there's always somone hipper. So then you have to be hipper than hip, slobbier than hip, hippier than slobdom, etc., and so on. There's no end.

Being geeky is so much more exceptional, or at least that's what you have to convince this person of. Play off the inherent insecurity inscribed in their attempt to be hip.

Hmm, I sound so machiavellian.

Guys, quick question: does the T60p have a DVI port? I just ordered one under the impression that it DOES, but now I'm finding that it may not.

That would be a deal-breaker for me and force me to the MacBook Pro camp.

Can anyone confirm? I ordered a 2007-94U.

Thanks.

The answer is simple. DVI is only available via a dock.

nikemen wrote:just a note to those looking at the MBP, this thing runs hotter than any other laptop I have ever used.

....The past couple days with a friends MBP, no way in HECK could I use it on my lap. I haven't run a system check to check CPU or GPU temp, but to the touch on the bottom it is almost TOO hot to touch.

Here is a solution I saw posted awhile back. PROTECT WHAT'S IMPORTANT

Porsche wrote:The answer is simple. DVI is only available via a dock.

Wow, that's unfortunate. I'll have to cancel my order.

There is no excuse for a modern, ultra-high-end laptop to not have DVI these days. None.

Thanks for your response.

Scottzero, since DVI is usually used to connect to a desktop monitor, leaving the connector off the laptop and including it in the dock (which can stay on the desk with the monitor) makes sense, althought the extra cost is unfortunate. If DVI was used more with portable hardware like projectors then I believe that Lenovo would have included it on the laptop, but right now VGA is the dominant way to connect to a projector.

Of course, this logic argues for leaving S-Video on the laptop which they have not done.

Also, there's simply no room for additional ports without returning to a battery that is included in the footprint of the case (rather than protruding from the back) and I kinda like the current battery arrangement. Looking at my T42p which uses every available inch for ports, It seems like Lenovo traded the parallel port for a heat vent and S-Video for an additional USB. Where else could they put a port?

-darren

darrenf wrote:If DVI was used more with portable hardware like projectors then I believe that Lenovo would have included it on the laptop, but right now VGA is the dominant way to connect to a projector.

Of course, this logic argues for leaving S-Video on the laptop which they have not done.

Also, there's simply no room for additional ports...

Lenovo could have gone the route that Apple went and provide a single DVI port with VGA and S-Video wired into it. And then provided as standard pieces that ship with the computer two very simple dongles to adapt the port. So there really doesn't have to be more room for ports.

That's not the most elegant solution, but it's a practical one (and it's waaaayyyy better than what Lenovo did do). It would show that Lenovo, like Apple, wants to provide the most capable notebook possible. Instead Lenovo, to me, has created the impression of laziness in design, cheapness, and unprofessionalism.

Each to his own, but I hate dongles. I see your point that a DVI(A/D) port with dongle could accomplish VGA, but if (when) the dongle is misplaced, it would be a show-stopper for someone giving a presentation on a projector (unless newer projectors are coming with DVI - which they might - I don't know).

-darren

darrenf wrote:Each to his own, but I hate dongles.

I don't especially love the solution I proposed, I just think it's a whole lot better than the current Lenovo solution: no S-Video, no DVI, totally wasting capabilities that exist in the graphics solution already in the notebook.

darrenf wrote:I see your point that a DVI(A/D) port with dongle could accomplish VGA, but if (when) the dongle is misplaced, it would be a show-stopper for someone giving a presentation on a projector (unless newer projectors are coming with DVI - which they might - I don't know).

What about a VGA port with DVI and S-Video wired into it and then a couple dongles? I know that would be possible for S-Video. Could it be done for DVI? Again, even if not ideal, that would be a whole lot better than what we've got.

donking! wrote:What about a VGA port with DVI and S-Video wired into it and then a couple dongles? I know that would be possible for S-Video. Could it be done for DVI?

Unfortunately, there are not enough pins in a D-SUB 15-pin connector. DVI-I has the digital pin array (24 pins) as well as pins carrying analog RGBHs (the four pins arranged around the flat slot-shaped pin on the connector), so this was not really a specialized Apple trick to get RGB over DVI. They just output both signals and likely used a stadard DVI-I to RGB dongle.

As far as I'm aware getting SVideo out of this connector *would* require a special trick as DVI-I does not support the Chroma/Luminesence pinout set required for SVideo.

-darren