Anyone thinking of getting the Macbook Pro vs. T60P

[pundit]

The core of the Mach kernel is FreeBSD and it is the most tested and secure version of UNIX in the opinion of many. Linux is nice, but not real UNIX IMO, and momentum does no equal goodness in an OS. I use the Terminal app most of the time for heavy lifting in OS X, and it is very fast. I also love the security in the BSD core.

I am not going to argue about BSD's kernel or Linux being better. But where do you get the idea that "the core of the Mach kernel is FreeBSD"? I don't want to sound rude, but this is not correct.

FreeBSD is a secure, well tested, mature UNIX no doubt. Linux is not a "real UNIX" no doubt. But how do you make the jump from the goodness of FreeBSD to the goodness of Darwin, when Mach and FreeBSD userland are unrelated?

[christopher_wolf]

Well, if we are going by wikipedia, I believe what was meant is this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X

And the following snippet

[...]Mac OS X is based on the Mach kernel and the BSD implementation of Unix[...]

It is widely stated by Apple that OS X was built on top of BSD, and that is the case; they have, however, modified it with various other code as well.

And from a more substantial and definitive source

http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/ad ... ology.html

[...]UNIX-based
UNIX logo

Beneath the easy-to-use interface and rich graphics of Mac OS X lies Darwin, an open source, UNIX-based foundation built on such technologies as mach and FreeBSD.[...]

HTH

[pundit]

Well, if we are going by wikipedia, I believe what was meant is this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X

[snip]

HTH

Yes it did, very much . I was making the argument with a totally useless source (My argument---and a totally stupid one at that---was more along the lines of, "Here's the wiki page for Mach. See? there's no BSD reference.")

In summary, OS X is built atop Darwin. Darwin is built on Apple-modifed BSDs and Mach. This modified Mach being the innermost level of the kernel.

(And to steveh, it's not that the "Mach core is BSD".)

[steveh]

I am not going to argue about BSD's kernel or Linux being better. But where do you get the idea that "the core of the Mach kernel is FreeBSD"? I don't want to sound rude, but this is not correct.

This may be a semantic difference (although I don't think so), but here is information from kernelthread.com;

The BSD subsystem is part of the kernel and so are various other subsystems that are typically implemented as user-space servers in microkernel systems.

As mentioned before, BSD runs not as an external (or user-level) server, but is part of the kernel itself.

But I am willing to surrender this semantic argument. I do still prefer the MacBook to the current T60 although.

[pundit]

[snip]
But I am willing to surrender this semantic argument. I do still prefer the MacBook to the current T60 although.

Agreed, this is bordering on semantics. I referred to what you're saying (the BSD influence on the kernel) as "monolithicisms tacked onto Mach". Either way, it doesn't matter, to each their own.

One more mouse button, and the MacBook Pro would have probably squeaked through for me too!

[Sottozero]

If the second mouse button is all that's stopping you, there's plenty of software that can enable a trackpad tap to be your right click. Piece of cake.

[pundit]

It was slightly exaggerated.

Vaguely related, I've always used the tap for a click, and the left-click buttons on past laptops have been the least used feature by me.

[Sottozero]

It was slightly exaggerated.

Vaguely related, I've always used the tap for a click, and the left-click buttons on past laptops have been the least used feature by me.

Did you get your T60p yet? Your machine specs are very similar to mine, which I got yesterday.

[pundit]

Did you get your T60p yet? Your machine specs are very similar to mine, which I got yesterday.

Not to cross-post, but I just updated my other thread here.

[RaysMD]

check this out guys.


just starting out...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116427161/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116436993/

[pundit]

check this out guys.


just starting out...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116427161/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116436993/

Excellent!, if you're into this sort of thing

1. What resolution is that?
2. Is it a lot of work? (And after you've used it for a while, is it worth it?)

[RaysMD]

actually, it was pretty easy. took me 30 mins to install. There's a DVD installer floating around somewhere.

The resolution is still 1024x768. I doesn't seem to have the correct drivers for the T60p yet. I actually find OSX easier to use. WiFi works flawlessly. I don't even have to tell it what kind of encryption I use (WPA/AES).

Pretty fast I have to say.


Install NOTES:
1. You have to disable security to the hidden partition and format your whole hard drive with the supplied OSX Disk Utility.
2. After that you can install winxp when needed.
3. I had my Thinkpad's volume muted and now I can't seem to unmute it.
4. LCD resolution needs to be fixed.

[pundit]

The resolution is still 1024x768. I doesn't seem to have the correct drivers for the T60p yet.

That's why I asked. From your picture, the resolution seemed low. It is surprising that OS X doesn't work well with the FireGL v5200, considering the v5200 is a rebranded(?) x1600 (which ships with the Macbook Pro).

Unless, is this an earlier version of OS X you're playing with?

[steveh]

That's why I asked. From your picture, the resolution seemed low. It is surprising that OS X doesn't work well with the FireGL v5200, considering the v5200 is a rebranded(?) x1600 (which ships with the Macbook Pro).

The X1600 may be the same core as the V5200, but the cards are a bit different, and I believe the ROM on the Apple card is different which caused some problems for the folks doing the XP to Mac install.

It's actually interesting hat the wireless drivers on OS X picked up his encryption and worked right away.

[RaysMD]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116602173/


haha, it now works. It's rather simple, apple didn't list the FireGL as an existing video card. So, all I did was make sure that it knew what kind of video card it was.

all this info is available at osx86project.org (search for my posts).

[taphil]

So what resolution is it running at now? It still looks like 1280x1024 which seems to be the max setting for OSX on a PC.

[donking!]

Yes, the MacBook does use the aluminum as a heat sink, but it NEVER gets too hot to touch or hold.

All I know is that A LOT of people are reporting that it does get hot enough to be uncomfortable to touch (for example, holding it in one's lap). See the links I provide above or just google around. It's not hard to find people reporting this as part of their experience with the MacBook.

BTW, last time I looked at my T42p the keys (as most of the notebook) are made of plastic, so I don't really get your 'plasticy' comment.

True, the keys on the ThinkPad are also made of plastic. Just something about the brushed metal finish (instead of black) on the keyboard, which makes it look cheaper to me. It also gets dirty more easily and doesn't wear well. The keys also don't feel as solid to me. Not all plastic is the same. But this is probably a trivial distinction.

Further, I have had a PowerMac G4 desktop for four years and I have found that OS X (in it's various incarnations) is surprisingly less stable than Windows 2000. I've had OS X completely crash a number of times. I've never once had that happen with Windows 2000. Many friends have reported similar experiences to me and claim XP is yet more stable (I've been resisting the shift, because of all the proprietary crap with XP).

We support over 5,000 Windows machines and this statement is unsub FUD, and out of character with your well thought out and intelligent reply. I will write this off as a brain fart.

It is just my opinion based on my experience. But I don't think it's a brain fart, per se. I mean, over the years I have regularly experienced crashes with OS X and this is consistent across upgrades. It has crashed when I run a lot of processes at the same time. And it likes to crash shutting down and starting up (which reminds me of the good old Windows 98 days). I have friends who say they have similar experiences with OS X. Yet, I have not once (not once ever) had Windows 2000 crash. It's just my experience, so it's not scientific or anything. There are probably plenty of counter-examples to be had. But the difference for me has been striking. And I'm not just talking about one funny thing that happened once with OS X. I'm talking about a consistent experience over four years.

Industrial design is a discipline of study in most major universities the world over. I dare think that they would think that this was a subjective course of study, and most professional industrial designers feel that good design can be objectified and gauged on the merits of the discipline. It is much more than gee, isn't that nice looking. And from WikiPedia:
Product design is focused on products only, while industrial design has a broader focus on concepts, products and processes. In addition to considering aesthetics, usability, and ergonomics, it can also encompass the engineering of objects, usefulness as well as usability, market placement, and other concerns.

Okay, I'm probably going to hear an earful for this: Science/engineering people always like to think and say that what they do is objective. It is one of the founding fictions of science. (And please let us not confuse "objective" with real or actual, as is so often the case.)

Design of any sort, even ergonomics, is subjective precisely because what works for one person does not work for every other person. That may be because their body is different or it may be because they just don't like a particular way of doing things or, what is really pretty much always the case, because there is some complex inextricable interrelation between a person's body and how they use it and what they like. The pyschology and corporality and cultural context all add up in a messy way that is very individualistic and just can't be objectified.

Also, as useful as I find it to be, I don't really take Wikipedia to be an authority on anything like this. It's just one or a couple of people's opinions who happened to write that article. We all know I could go edit it and change it right now, if I wanted to make it into what I would find to be a more nuanced and complex article fitting my way of viewing this question.

What is it about this design that doesn’t age well in your opinion? Along these lines I guess you could say that a Ferrari 512BB does not age well either.

Well, Ferraris are kind of glitzy too and they're not very useful, so I don't know it's the effect Apple is going for. But if we're using car analogies, I'd compare the MacBook to the DeLorean or (off the car angle) the Enterprise on the original Star Trek. Both looked cool at the time, but both are very much dated now and easily recognizable as of their era. I guess I think the MacBook design will soon look like what someone once thought was futuristic, but will come to seem a bit silly. To me this is already obviously the case with the original two iBook designs. And I can see it beginning to happen with the PowerBook/MacBook design, when I see ten in a row in a cafe.

Also, on another angle, I think the brushed metal design gets dirty and scratched in ways that don't work so well. It's such a high polish look that it's hard to maintain. Whereas the all black ThinkPad, because it has taken functionality as part of its look, when it's dinged or scratched, well, it looks like it's been well used and that fits with it's functional image. So I think that's a smart design because it has a temporality of wear and tear to it.

[pundit]

Science/engineering people always like to think and say that what they do is objective.

No, we don't have any such pretensions.

[RaysMD]

resolution is 1400x1050


not too shabby

[jjfcpa]

I am not sure any of you heard, but they finally got Windows XP to run on a MacBook Pro. I am having a crisis - I ordered a T60p with all the trimmings - 2 gig ram, 100gb 7200rpm hd, 9 cell battery, 2.0 ghz - and I got a sweet deal on it as well. However, I am extremely peeved at the wait time (ship date is 4/11, I order on 2/22).

Now, the MacBook Pro offers almost no advantages over the previously mentioned beast (the proc will be the same, the HD the same, the ram is a bit less, video is arguably better for my needs - 256 X1600 vs. 256 V5200), but, the form factor as well as the look of the laptop are so hot, it's not even worth talking about it. Don't get me wrong, I love the matte black finish - but the MacBook is just a hot looking machine.

Of course, the driver issue is a bit of a pain, however, I think it would be resolved fairly quickly AND I am pretty savvy, so I don't think it will be an issue. I need XP a ton, as my business is centered around .NET solutions, (OSX would be great too, for testing and having UNIX for java stuff - although I prefer .NET).

So, the question is, any of you guys feel the same way? Any pros/cons? Anything new to offer?

I had the Macbook Pro in my shopping cart and was ready to purchase and install XP on it when I read in the Apple forum some complaints about it running hotter than heck. If there is one thing I can't stand, it's a hot laptop, so I cancel the order.

I definitely like the specs but I won't take a chance on buying a warming plate when I'm paying for a notebook.

[donking!]

Science/engineering people always like to think and say that what they do is objective.

No, we don't have any such pretensions.

Nice to hear.

I guess I was making a pretty large generalization.

[christopher_wolf]

No, we don't have any such pretensions.

Nice to hear.

I guess I was making a pretty large generalization.

Indeed

The only people who like to *think* that they are making good arguments are the ones making large, and somewhat fallicious, generalizations in the first place.

In the Science and Engineering Worlds, few things burn more than making large generalizations, feel-good comments, promising a revolution...then presenting something that is nowhere near that, a "fishing expedition" paper that spends more time poking the technology instead of discovering new things, or (worst of all) a paper that is essentially a gigantic abstract/review that spends the entire time talking and "projecting" future outcomes whilst quoting *very* many other publications in which work was actually done and end up not concluding anything. Those kind of papers are either left for journals that want to sensationalize the public and to impress people who don't know any better. These kinds of publications also affect the public at large as well as media outlets and impede meaningful progress with important sounding, though highly circumlocutory, gibberish.

Having to review such abstracts again and again is no fun task, let me re-assure. To prevent that, it is always good to check your sources (as well as reality) and whether or not a long paper makes some sense before going to submit to a review board or any other publication.

[donking!]

Nice to hear.

I guess I was making a pretty large generalization.

Indeed

Well, I mean, I do stand by my generalization as a generalization. But I don't think I'll really defend that position, because I'm afraid this will get into a big debate that's off the topic of the MacBook vs. the T60.

I just meant it was nice to hear pundit (as part of the science/engineering world) not feel the need to defend an ideal of objectivity. Something steveh was doing above in order to justify the assertion that there was something undeniably great about the MacBook design.

[christopher_wolf]

Next time then, provide actual proof for a generalization, otherwise don't do it from the beginning. Steveh wasn't part of the "Scientific and Engineering World" and blindly defending objectivity; besides, that was resolved several posts ago and had little-to-no impact; no point to keep talking about it and pretending otherwise.

I didn't see anything that steveh was saying that indicated that the MacBook Pro was something "undeniably great"; by the same logic, the T60p is "undeniably great" as well...So far, nothing about this has been a far-out statement.

[donking!]

steveh wrote:

While design is very subjective, good industrial design is not, and the MacBook is an icon of good industrial design.

and:

Industrial design is a discipline of study in most major universities the world over. I dare think that they would think that this was a subjective course of study, and most professional industrial designers feel that good design can be objectified and gauged on the merits of the discipline.

I was responding to these comments. We we're having a back and forth about the objectivity of industrial design (amongst other topics, concerning the MacBook and the T60), which I wasn't able to get to for a couple days. He was generalizing in some pretty strong ways. I made a generalization of my own. I don't see what's wrong with that. We're stating opinions.

If you're not interested in the debate or find it fatuous, then why not just ignore it?

[a31pguy]

Dudes - I'm taking a wait and see approach. I've had too many laptops go belly up to take a $2999 risk on a lemon. I'm going to wait until the shipping times get sane and you guys do all the QA testing for me! So - neither. Until then - working away on my z60m until the T60p materializes and gets a good review. That said - I like the specs on the T60p alot. I still wish for dual ultrabays though.

[christopher_wolf]

steveh wrote:

While design is very subjective, good industrial design is not, and the MacBook is an icon of good industrial design.

and:

Industrial design is a discipline of study in most major universities the world over. I dare think that they would think that this was a subjective course of study, and most professional industrial designers feel that good design can be objectified and gauged on the merits of the discipline.

I was responding to these comments. We we're having a back and forth about the objectivity of industrial design (amongst other topics, concerning the MacBook and the T60), which I wasn't able to get to for a couple days. He was generalizing in some pretty strong ways. I made a generalization of my own. I don't see what's wrong with that. We're stating opinions.

If you're not interested in the debate or find it fatuous, then why not just ignore it?

Nothing is wrong here; Steve had a perfectly valid statement that could be applied to either the T60p or the MacBook Pro...But if you want to continue that conversation, don't drive the thread off-topic be commenting on a post 5 posts back. Making generalizations like that about computers is fine, what is not fine is making sweeping generalizations about people in a particular profession or vocation; that borders on Ad Hominem and is *never* appreciated by anybody.

The idea of this is to reply to the original topic and *not* to wander off to vague-but-useless argument land and go back and forth about whether or not somebody thinks this looks like a better industrial design over that which is going to go nowhere fast.

[donking!]

Okay, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my generalization about science and engineering as fields. They are venerable fields for which I have great respect.

But I'm totally perplexed by this. I think I ought to be able to state and opinion about these fields. That seems like a perfectly legitimate area of discussion in a thread comparing the MacBook and the T60, in which the nature of industrial design was under discussion, with specific reference to these notebooks.

My remark was also part of a post in which I was making many other comments, all about the MacBook and T60. So I do not accept that the discussion had gone way off topic. And I take issue with your suggestion that I'm making ad hominem attacks, because I made a general remark about science and engineering as fields of knowledge.

[kwramm]

Hi! I just joined this forum as I made up my mind to get a T60p.

I had the same decision to make, Macbook Pro or T60p. I have to add I work as 3D artist. Here are my subjective(?) reasons to go with the T60p instead of the Macbook:

- right and middle mouse button. I need those as I use 3D apps that need those and hitting obscure key combos to achieve that would not work

- DVD is swappable with a 2nd harddisk and also upgradable. Upgrade your DVD player in the future? Just get a new module

- trackpad AND trackpoint. More is always better, nuff said

- I like the size factor of the t60p better than the size of widescreen notebooks - this goes for the screen aspect ratio as well

- docking station. Not having to unplug lots of cables when I want to use my notebook in a desktop style way is nice. Extra ports are nice too

- built in modem. Here in europe you often have to unplug the phone in a hotel and just use dial in as, depending on region, very few hotels have wifi.

- thinkpads are built with reliability in mind. I still have the bad experience in mind I had with my original powerbook G3. The machine was very unreliable and flimsy. When your notebook dies, good design won't help you.

- the warranty

- certified drivers for 3d apps. Not big on my list, but nice to have. I mostly used my 3d apps with consumer cards and they all worked fine anyway.

However the Macbook also got some nice points, but I can live without them...

- OS X: it's nice, I do have another mac, but when I really need to, I can pick up a copy and probably run it on the t60p. Yet I don't see a reason to.

- design: it IS a nice machine. Yet when I'm on the road, I prefer reliability and usability over looks.

- DVI out. All the monitors I have have DVI. The t60p has only VGA which means I must use the docking station to use DVI. Then again, how often do I go somewhere and have to plug my notebook to someone else's DVI monitor? not very often and I want to have a docking station at home in any case.

- very nice TFT screen. Can't beat that. it's a strong point. But what is the best screen worth when I only have one mouse button and cannot properly use my applications? When I go stationary where I can use a mouse, I would connect my macbook to my TFT monitor anyway, not using the built in display.

- XP support may not be 100%. There are still drivers missing and you may have to rely on 3rd party hacks to get future drivers to work when you want to use XP, since basically the Macbook just is not designed to be a XP machine. You will always run an unsupported OS.

- I have an apple store 100m from where I live ...but who cares? I don't expect my next notebook to die soon.

- illuminated keyboard. this solution is much more elegant than lenovo's approach. But in the end not really that important. Nice but not a must have.

In the end the decision to get the t60p over the macbook was easier than I thought.

[poloniumhalos]

So what resolution is it running at now? It still looks like 1280x1024 which seems to be the max setting for OSX on a PC.

1600x1200x32 on my R50p