Mini review: Advanced Dock with T60p

Message

tradersworld · #121 Post by **tradersworld** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:43 pm

Some Thinkpad docking stations have problems. There are several versions out there. Some don't work correctly even with a bios update.

If you get a defective dock, return it to your retailer within the normal 15 - 30 day return time for a replacement. Don't buy one from any retailer unless they have a guaranteed time period for return for exchange.

Used this bios to update your Thinkpad T60 or T60p.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-63024

This BIOS Update Utility updates the BIOS (system program including the Embedded Controller (EC) program) stored in the ThinkPad system to fix problems, add new functions, or expand functions as noted below.

The advanced docking station must be attached at the same time.

IMPORTANT:

Be very very careful, you can blow out your entire motherboard if this is not done correctly. If the power should go out or something else unexpected happens during the bios update you are in serious trouble.

Sometimes it is better to have a qualified technician do this for you.

tradersworld · #122 Post by **tradersworld** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:47 pm

In our testing we have found that the Matrox cards work much better than any other card in the advanced docking station. They infact, work much better than the PNY NVS 285 and NVS 440. I believe that their software is also more compatible with the Thinkpad T60. The Matrox cards are more expensive, but the extra cost may be worth it.

ianbrom · #123 Post by **ianbrom** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:27 am

tradersworld, many thanks for prompt reply re bios update.

I have already updated bios to 1.09a but bios update instructions are very clear that computer should be detached from any dock before bios update yet you say that it should be attached!

IBM/Lenovo (UK) have initially stubbornly refused to accept any possible warranty claim on the dock claiming that they will not state that any particular card is compatible thereby being able to say that it is not possible for the user to prove that the PCIe slot has any problems. All are just dismissed as compatibility issues outside warranty.

After persistent complaints about this attitude they have now said that their technical experts do think the NVS285 and Matrox G550 should work and asked me to send them these cards (but not my actual dock!) to test which I have done. That was just over a week ago and I have been away for that week.
I am hoping to obtain some response on Monday.

The P650 does work fine but the card fan howls up and down dreadfully with 2 monitors attached. If I disconnect the card fan it locks up after a medium days work. Currently I use one monitor on the internal DVI port and one on the card which keeps the noise down but it is not ideal.
(The Matrox G550 does not work at all - even the portable LCD screen does not show anything just from putting the card in the slot.)

Is the dock card bay fan triggered by the presence of a card or by a thermostat or what. Not sure that mine works. I think someone else suggested a similar problem earlier.

ianbrom · #124 Post by **ianbrom** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:54 am

I have now had a response from Lenovo UK following my sending them the Nvidia NVS285 and Matrox G550 cards as they requested.

They have said that they had the same problems with these cards as I had (as reported earlier in this forum) and are raising "a technical escalation ... to find the root cause of this problem".

astpaul · #125 Post by **astpaul** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:00 am

tradersworld wrote:Some Thinkpad docking stations have problems. There are several versions out there. Some don't work correctly even with a bios update.

Do you or someone have a list of the defective versions? This way new purchases won't take those ones

. It will save a lot of trouble!

thanks again for your great work.

sglaser · #126 Post by **sglaser** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:21 pm

Note also that PCI Express has a slot power management feature. This may be one reason why certain option cards are not functioning in the dock.

In PCI Express, option cards may initially consume up to a specified amount of power. To consume more power, the option must receive a Set Slot Power Limit message with a larger power limit.

Sending a Set Slot Power Limit message is caused by software writing to the Slot Power Limit and Slot Power Scale fields in the Device Capabilities register of the PCI Express Switch or Root Port controlling the indicated slot.

The allowed limits are defined by the PCI Express formfactor specifications. For a standard height, conventional PCIe formfactor, an option with a x16 connector is initially allowed 25 watts and may consume up to 75 watts if allowed by a Set Slow Power Limit message. For a x1 connector, the numbers are 10 and 25 watts respectively (smaller connector has fewer power pins).

Graphics cards are currently allowed up to 150 watts using a double wide slot and an external power cable. There is a pending ECR to the PCI Express specification (currently in member review) to define Slot Power message encodings for up to 300 watts.

The appropriate specs are available (for pay) at http://www.pcisig.org

#127 Post by **RonS** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:14 am

sglaser,

I've written some device drivers under NT, so I first thought that I would write a quick utility, based on your post, to set a higher power limit. But then it occurred to me that this setting would have to be set by the BIOS (probably during POST) or else the video card's on-board firmware may not initialize correctly.

But it would be interesting to read the values back, after startup, to see what the limits currently are. Do you have the port I/O addresses and expected values? I'd rather not have to wade through (and pay for) the PCISIG docs.

I also wonder how much power is available on the the Dock to supply the PCI-e slot...

Thesp · #128 Post by **Thesp** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:33 am

ianbrom: any further updates from Lenovo on your escalation? xaveon and bealers seem to have got their triple setups working...

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... ght=triple

...but mine remains resolutely dead...

How're you doing?

sglaser · #129 Post by **sglaser** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:59 pm

The register doesn't have a fixed location but it's not that bad.

Locate config space of the device in question. Read byte at offset 34h. This is the head of a linked list of capabilities also in config space.

At the byte pointed to by byte 34h, is the start of the capability and contains a capability ID. At the next byte (offset 01h of the capability) is the pointer to the next capability (or zero for the end of the list). You're looking for a list item with capability ID 10h -- PCI Express Capability.

In that capability, offset 02h should be:
01h (PCIe Endpoint Device)
11h (Legacy PCIe Endpoint Device)
41h (Root Port of PCIe Root Complex)
51h (Upstream Port of PCIe switch)
61h (Downstream port of PCIe Switch)
71h (PCI Express to PCI/PCI-X Bridge)
81h (PCI/PCI-X to PCIe Bridge a.k.a. reverse bridge)
91h (Root Complex Integrated Endpoint Device)
A1h (Root Complex Event Collector)

The 32 bit register at offset 04h is the Device Capabilities Register. Bits 25:18 contain the Captured Slot Power Limit Value and bits 27:26 contain the Captured Slot Power Limit Scale. These are the values the Device got from the most recent Set Slot Power message (or all 0 if no Set Slot Power has been sent).

Limit value is in watts, scale value is the multiplier with the encoding 00b = 1.0x, 01b = 0.1x, 10b = 0.01x, 11b = 0.001x

Offset 14h is the Slot Capabilities Register. It is optionally implemented and is present in either a Root Port or Downstream PCIe Switch Port if the low bit of offset 03h is set. Slot Capabilities Register bits 14:7 contain the Slot Power Limit Value and bits 16:15 contain Slot Power Limit Scale. Writing these fields sends a Set Slot Power Limit message. Data Link Up also sends this message. Both fields are listed as HwInit (initialized by hardware / firmware mechanisms).

Sorry for the delay in posting -- I didn't notice the replies till today.

ianbrom · #130 Post by **ianbrom** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:36 pm

Thesp
Sorry for delay, seem to have fallen off the automatic email re new messages and have given up fighting.

I have just totally given up on it. Even my P650 which seemed to work locks up after about 3/4 days work. Dock is now not used at all, portable only used occasionally for site visits instead of as main machine as intended. Extra HDD not used - complete waste of a lot of money. I will never buy any more Lenovo gear unless they honour their product.
They sent me £125 as token compensation - less than cost of dock. I sent it to Red Cross.
I have also tried through dealer. The whole situation amounts to a breach of contract or Trades Descriptions - advertised as running high end graphics etc. But life is too short - can only vote with feet after 20 years of buying IBM with acceptable to excellent service and support.

This is last I had from IBM/Lenovo 10/10/06

Good Morning Mr. Bromwich,

I`ll try to chase up the payment. As for now, still I have no news regarding the dock.station. Our
people also tried the ATI fire mv2200 which was working in the dock, but as stated before, at the
moment we cannot make any statement about which card is and which one is not working with the
dock.
Regarding the different FRU numbers for the dock, as I asked about this, according to the information
I have there were no design changes connected with the PCI-e slot. So from this view it should be still
the same docking station.

I`ll go back to you with any new information I get.

Thanks a lot
Kind Regards
Tomas Spura

and this before if I have not already advised when they borrowed my matrox G550 and Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 to test.

Good Morning Mr. Bromwich,

our technicians came during the tests to the same results as you did. We are rising an technical escalation in this case,
in order to find out a root cause of this problem. I`ll keep you informed about the status of this issue.

Kind Regards
Tomas Spura

Ian

Thesp · #131 Post by **Thesp** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:06 pm

Hah. They can't even make a statement as to which cards will or won't work in the dock. I'd be happy for IBM just to say which card they tested in the dock that allowed them to claim it as a multimonitor. I now have two docks, four cards, and one working monitor still.

Anyone else out there know what might be up with this? I can't really throw any more cash at more cards...

JamesTX · #132 Post by **JamesTX** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:16 pm

Thanks for all this info - I'm trying to get dual monitors up on my Z61t and I will follow some of the ideas I've gathered here.

I noticed that Lenovo has some video cards listed under the Accessories section of their website. Are these compatible with the Advanced Dock?

speedi · #133 Post by **speedi** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:33 pm

RonS wrote: The only defect I have to address on my T60p is the screen flicker. It happens about every 10 minutes or so, the external display flickers. If you set the BIOS to use the PCI-Express as boot primary, the flicker happens on both displays (external and the primary Thinkpad screen).

Were you able to find a solution to this problem? I just received my ThinkPad T60p about 3 weeks ago and when I have the machine docked, hooked up to two LCD panels (laptop LCD is not being used) then once every 10-15 mins it almost seems like the display jerks or something.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

- Speedi

#134 Post by **RonS** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:32 am

BIOS version 1.09 fixed the flicker problem for me. I haven't upgrade to version 2.04 yet.

speedi · #135 Post by **speedi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:54 pm

RonS wrote:BIOS version 1.09 fixed the flicker problem for me. I haven't upgrade to version 2.04 yet.

I am using BIOS v2.07 and it's still happening. I just had the dock replaced by Lenovo and it still does the same thing... so the dock is not the problem.

This is really annoying... I wish I could figure out what the problem was without replacing the laptop. I guess if they sent a new one, I could either swap the drives OR I could just image from one machine to the other.

Just another question, could the flicker be described as more of a "jerk" or so, but that does not affect the entire display? I have a hard time describing what I'm seeing as it lasts a little longer than a blink of an eye.

#136 Post by **RonS** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:23 am

If you look closely at the "flicker" you'll see that for just a split second, the resolution changes to 640x480 or so. Then, it flickers back to the previous resolution.

It happened to be about every 10 minutes before BIOS version 1.09. Once I installed 1.09, the problem happens only once or twice per day at most.

I only saw the problem when docked and using an external DVI monitor. My external monitor sits to the left of the Thinkpad.

Thesp · #137 Post by **Thesp** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:08 am

Multi-monitor update - now have tried PCI-e x1 Matrox G550 in the dock. Parity errors and crashes all the way using recent Matrox drivers. Use as primary and secondary both fail. Back to single-screen, built-in card and all is flawless again.

This card eliminates both the pci-e speed bus factor (as it is pci-e 1x natively) and the power problem (rated 32W). Therefore it must be some innate problem with the design of dock pci-e subsystem and its interface to the laptop pci-e subsystem.

Another wasted $100.

I wonder if Tomas Spura and the good folk of Lenovo have got any further with Ian's cards...

FrankK-F · #138 Post by **FrankK-F** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:38 pm

Very interesting thread indeed ...

My interest is is also in this area .. looking for Graphics Card for my Dock-II for an A31p (PCI .. NOT .. PCIe)

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

Any suggestions? Anyone?

evanr76 · #139 Post by **evanr76** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:29 pm

Just wanted to chime in on this truly helpful thread.

I have a T60p Widescreen (BIOS 1.01, Mobility FireGL V5250) and what I presume to be the latest build of the Advanced Dock (US, shipped last week from NC). Keep in mind the WS models have a different BIOS versioning lineage, in case that 1.01 looks archaic.

The good news is, with relatively little hassle, I've got the LCD + 3 DVI-D monitors running with the Diamond BV300 (a 256MB board which is based on the Radeon X1300 and claims 256MB of HyperMemory for a marketing total of 512MB).

The only install hiccup I had was that the board was not recognized without first installing the driver that came with the card on CD. I was a little surprised because it is an ATI-based card and I have the latest Catalyst drivers installed, so I figured it would be recognized automatically. It was not. I was careful only to install the ATI display driver and not the Catalyst control center.

Once the driver was installed, Device Manager was able to identify and load devices for the card (reported as a Radeon x1300 and Radeon x1300 Secondary) and use the monitors, but it did break ATI Catalyst. Reinstalling the latest Catalyst build from ati.com fixed this (after a reboot).

Although this is a HyperMemory card I did not experience any resource conflicts as others have reported. That being said, my T60p has 4GB of SODIMM's installed (only ~3GB accessible to WinXP of course), which may be masking potential resource conflicts others have had with HyperMemory cards - perhaps there's enough headroom that the card can grab another 256MB without issue.

Now the bad news. My biggest complaint is the fan noise coming from the dock at all times. This is a potential dealbreaker. The BV300 itself has an onboard fan which is relatively quiet (I proved it to myself by temporarily disconnecting it), but whenever the card is active the dock easily generates 50dBA (measured 12" away from the docked laptop screen with my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter). The dock is located under my desk hutch which could be reflecting the sound but it is definitely not "quiet".

In the original post, RonS mentions that his dock's fans only kicked on under load. With mine they are on all the time. The BV300 is an x16 card and its specs do call for a 420W (!!) desktop power supply. I doubt it was designed to be used in as power-limited environment as a dock, and I wonder if, for that reason, it is sloppier in its power consumption than, say, some of the x1 cards on the market? That said, the fans are blowing relatively cool air. Perhaps it's not actually using more power, but is telling the PCIe controller that it is (perhaps the dock uses the PCIe watt count as its fan trigger - anyone know?)

So chalk up one more "it works" experience with a Radeon x1300-based card. At this point I'm not too gung ho about disassembling the dock or splicing the fan wiring so my next stop is probably a x1 fanless card like the NVS285.

FrankK-F · #140 Post by **FrankK-F** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:14 am

Just one question ... does any configuration of a PCI-E card work in a PCI slot?

In other words is there backward compatibility?

#141 Post by **RonS** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:05 pm

FrankK-F, PCI-E cards are definitely NOT backwards compatible with PCI.

Previous docks: I ran an ATI 9250 card in my Dock II (T42). I also ran a different video card in the dock for my A21p, but I forgot which one. Any half-size PCI card should work.

I've run literally dozens of different video cards in the docks that I've owned (including three Advanced Docks so far) and I can only remember one failure: an Appian quad-head card that never worked right in any computer. Some day I hope to understand why some people have bad luck getting video cards to work in a dock, and others don't.

OPEN INVITATION: If anyone is having no joy getting a video card to work in their dock, send me your setup and I'll try to figure it out. If you're in the Portland, OR area maybe we can hook up in person.

#142 Post by **RonS** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:18 pm

tradersworld wrote:Some Thinkpad docking stations have problems. There are several versions out there. Some don't work correctly even with a bios update.

If you get a defective dock, return it to your retailer within the normal 15 - 30 day return time for a replacement. Don't buy one from any retailer unless they have a guaranteed time period for return for exchange.

Used this bios to update your Thinkpad T60 or T60p.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-63024

This BIOS Update Utility updates the BIOS (system program including the Embedded Controller (EC) program) stored in the ThinkPad system to fix problems, add new functions, or expand functions as noted below.

The advanced docking station must be attached at the same time.

IMPORTANT:

Be very very careful, you can blow out your entire motherboard if this is not done correctly. If the power should go out or something else unexpected happens during the bios update you are in serious trouble.

Sometimes it is better to have a qualified technician do this for you.

I've heard (but have no first-hand knowledge) of people who have turned their systems into bricks because they updated their BIOS while docked. Do you have any backup documention that supports what you say - that system BIOS updates also update the Dock's firmware?

From the ThinkPad T60/T60p BIOS Update Utility instructions:

- If your computer is attached to any kind of docking station or
port replicator, turn off the computer and detach it before
proceeding.

FrankK-F · #143 Post by **FrankK-F** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:28 am

OOPS ...

RonS, thank you for your help with my prior post... am following with API.

I was getting enamored with the 30in LCD monitors with dual DVI connectors ... with 2560 x 1600 native resolution.

I had a vague recollection, but I did not check the spec sheet for my TP (2653 series A31p with UXGA) ... it says max 2048x1536 external monitor resolution (via Dock-II and PCI graphics card) ... and the same for the T60p with UXGA.

So the question is obvious ... can such 30 inch monitors run with these ThinkPads .. particularly with my A31p units?

If that option is NOT feasible ... could I run a second external LCD monitor (now have Dell 24 with 1960-1200). If I ran these two WUXGAs side by side in PORTAIT mode this would give me a canvas of 2400 x 1960 with a 2 inch bar in the middle .. a bit messy as a 'desktop'.

#144 Post by **RonS** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:59 am

2048x1536 can't be done with single-link DVI. 2048*1536*60hz = 188.7MHz, which is beyond the 165MHz limit for single-link DVI.

I think they're talking about the analog VGA connection providing 2048x1536 resolution to an external monitor, not DVI.

The only way I know to run a 30" monitor with an A31p is to *perhaps* put a Matrox DL256 card in the dock. It's a PCI card that might fit. I'm not sure... I have all the parts in my office, and I'll try to test it out tomorrow. If it does fit, it will drive two of the 30" monitors and cost around $700.

Running a screen in portrait mode is a function of the video driver, not the computer. I know that most Matrox cards support it. The ATI Catalyst is also supposed to support it, but I haven't tested it myself.

UPDATE: I just checked - the DL256 will not fit in the A31p's dock.

DSG · #145 Post by **DSG** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:12 pm

At the risk of flogging a dead dock, has anyone had any useful support from IBM\Lenovo on the dualhead issue?

I'm in the unenviable position of trying to determine why G550+Advanced Dock+T60=bad.
I've had success with various other combinations (T42+G450 and T60+P650) but the G550 seems to be a show-stopper, the machine doesn't even finish POST with the card in the dock; I don't want to spend the extra hundreds of dollars per desk for the P650 if the G550 can be bludgeoned into submission but if IBM can simply confirm that it doesn't, I'll move on.

I've spoken to IBM Support Australia and they were no help.

Has there been any progress on the G550 or any hint of a supported hardware listing?

speedi · #146 Post by **speedi** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:14 pm

RonS wrote:If you look closely at the "flicker" you'll see that for just a split second, the resolution changes to 640x480 or so. Then, it flickers back to the previous resolution.

It happened to be about every 10 minutes before BIOS version 1.09. Once I installed 1.09, the problem happens only once or twice per day at most.

I only saw the problem when docked and using an external DVI monitor. My external monitor sits to the left of the Thinkpad.

This is the EXACT thing that happens to me, but it happens every 20 mins... sad that I trended when it was happening. Yes, I also noticed that the display resolution was, in fact, changing, but only for a fraction of a second before returning to the original. I only noticed this when I had a picture of the automobile as my background and noticed the wheel show up to the right-edge of the DVI display.

Anyway, I am using both the DVI and VGA ports on the Advanced Mini-dock. It started on the VGA, then I installed presentation director. Then it moved to the DVI. If I use just the DVI or VGA, there is no flicker when docked.

IBM/Lenovo support is stumped. I just don't want to depot the system board and it still do the same thing!!

Suggestions?

seazures · #147 Post by **seazures** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:12 am

Hi, all.

I've some report about my T60 + Advanced Dock and some cards.

I tried two GF7600GS cards.

My T60 is X1300 Model (2007 11L)

and Advanced Dock is 250310J (for Japanese)

first, I tried to LEAKTEK GF7600GS model, it does NOT work.

maybe it hang up like Thesp's case. (no boot with Dock in 7600gs, but boot without Dock, hot docking, find new VGA card, but it does work)

so, I find this article and I buy XFX 7600GS that Rons's list.

but, it does NOT work like LEAKTEK's one.

What's the problem?

Is it really problem with advanced dock's version?

I'm tired and waste a lot of money..

#148 Post by **RonS** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:06 am

seazures wrote: first, I tried to LEAKTEK GF7600GS model, it does work.

seazures wrote: I buy XFX 7600GS that Rons's list.

but, it does work like LEAKTEK's one.

I think there's a typo here. Did you mean to say that the XFX 7600GS does NOT work?

seazures · #149 Post by **seazures** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:14 am

oh god;

It's great mistake, I mean, both of that doesn't work.

Rons. Which driver did you use in 7600GS? and your BIOS version?

evanr76 · #150 Post by **evanr76** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:23 pm

Blue screens and general stability problems. Perhaps it's unhappy mixing the nVidia card with the on-board ATI (FireGL 5250).

Have not tried playing with option ROMs/other BIOS settings to try to clear up more address space for the card, in case that's what's causing the issue.

Mini review: Advanced Dock with T60p

BIOS Update Utility - ThinkPad T60, T60p

Matrox cards verses PNY NVS Cards

Re: BIOS Update Utility - ThinkPad T60, T60p

PCIe Swt Slot Power Limit

Slot Power Register

Diamond BizView BV300 works with T60p WS, Advanced Dock

Re: BIOS Update Utility - ThinkPad T60, T60p

External Monitors .. 2560 x 1600

Report something..(modified)

Re: Report something..

OMG

PNY Quadro NVS285 x1 - doesn't work

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