Please post bad experiences with T60 : /

[Teerex]

I'm ordering a T43p later this week - but it's VERY difficult for me since all the reviews on the T60 seem to indicate that I ought to wait with my order and get a T60

However, I cannot wait much longer since I have to let go of this T43 that I'm currently using.

I spend long days in front of the computer working and some nights playing CS source My main worry is the graphics card since I play 3D games. I'm currently using a t43 with x300 graphics card and will be getting either a t43p with 128MB ATI firegl - whereas the t60 seems to be 256 firegl.

Am I making a big mistake in not waiting another month to get the T60 rather than the T43p?


Thanks

Rex

[snife]

IMHO - Yes!

While i'm of the opinion that you shouldn't ever really wait for new features and should buy the best of what is available at the time - the T60p has been announced so I wouldn't buy the previous generation now unless the cost made it worthwhile. I think its particularly important if you do use it to play games from a futureproofing point of view if you have the better graphics.

[RaysMD]

here's a simple rule that I tend to follow.


Once you've thought about it, then there's no way you're going to forget about it.


Translation: You're thinking about getting the T60. So, let's say you don't buy the T60. Instead you buy the T43. Guess what you're going to think about every other week. You guessed it; you're going to say to yourself, "should I have gotten the T60?" This will repeat itself until you do buy it. So, my advice to you is to wait for the T60. Else you're going to end up selling the T43 on eBay to pay for the T60.

[Teerex]

here's a simple rule that I tend to follow.


Once you've thought about it, then there's no way you're going to forget about it.


Translation: You're thinking about getting the T60. So, let's say you don't buy the T60. Instead you buy the T43. Guess what you're going to think about every other week. You guessed it; you're going to say to yourself, "should I have gotten the T60?" This will repeat itself until you do buy it. So, my advice to you is to wait for the T60. Else you're going to end up selling the T43 on eBay to pay for the T60.

I'm afraid, you may be right.

You write in your signature that your evaluation doesn't look good and that you may keep your T42. What's that based on?

[lithium726]

Ive been heaing reports of people's T60's being shipped 9 days after they order them, so you might not be waiting too long if you order now...

[RaysMD]

it's just me nit-picking because I've had a T-series since the T40. I a little peeved aboved the smaller trackpad, the colors on the ultranav, and it's slightly thicker than the T42. Otherwise it's fine.

[pundit]

This is on a T60p, and it's the most "pleasant" bad experience I've had so far.

After much obsessing over my new computer, I stress-tested nearly every component of it and was very pleased with its stability and such. Then during one of the more revealing visual tests (fill the screen with one pure bright colour), I noticed that the wee bottom left corner of my screen was slightly-slightly darker than the rest of the screen.

This is noticeable only in certain viewing angles, and only on certain choices of background colour (but I found it). (Unable to get any real work done obsessing over this detail,) I called up the company, and within a couple of minutes I got it planned that I send it for them to check it out. I will know in a few days apparently if there is a problem and they could fix it.

What's more amazing (and this was something I asked), it doesn't change the status of their return policy at all. After they "fix" (what could be an imagined problem), even if I'm still not appeased, I can return it!

I thought this is a most excellent scheme. And am not in the least bit annoyed. And am most impressed. I very much want my machine back working fine, and a relationship with such wonderful service.

[donking!]

The one thing I find annoying so far on the T60 is the tiny trackpad. I just don't understand why they made it so small. I realize those who love the trackpoint may find it altogether superfluous, but then couldn't one just disable it? The trackpad works well enough, but it could be more functional--and start closer to the keyboard, like on the T4x design.

[rssb]

The windows keys between the control and alt keys

[Kyocera]

Is the trackpad significantly smaller than say my t30 or t42? They both seem about the same size.

[pundit]

I've used the T43 before, but I can't seem to recall the Trackpad size on it. All I know is that the T60's is teeeeeny.

Though that's annoying, it isn't as annoying to me as the awkward placement of the Fn key; that HAS to be Cntrl.

[archer6]

My T60 is excellent and a definite improvement over previous models. I find the trackpad & mouse buttons, operate very well, it only took a day or two to adjust to the slight change in size & layout.

Pundit:

I have had exemplary service experiences with tech support and the repair work on the two ThinkPad's I've sent in over the last few years. Fast too!

Please post the results of your experience as I too have the issue with the illumination of the display.

Thanks to All who make this forum so exceptional and educational.

[pundit]

Please post the results of your experience as I too have the issue with the illumination of the display.

It seems like a fairly widespread "issue", should you happen to notice it. I will let you know how it goes.

If they're unable/unwilling to fix it with a screen that works, and I can't stop obsessing over it, I might have to give it back. Either way, people here will know how things go.

[jeremivw]

I've observed this darkening phenom on my 15" IPS. As I move my head either down or side to side there is a slight shadow that sets in from the top or side. Not annoying in the least and doesn't appear to me to be a color shift but rather a slight darkening or shadowing effect...

[donking!]

I posted remarks about my experiences with the 14.1" SXGA+ screen in this thread:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=22686

The more I use it the more underwhelmed I am. It's good. Even perhaps very good. But I expected higher quality in brightness and viewing angles. I just don't understand why there's no FlexView, or the like, on the 14.1" models. As it stands it's an element in the 14.1" models that really doesn't stand out in any way from other current notebooks.

[dr_st]

I just don't understand why there's no FlexView, or the like, on the 14.1" models.

Ask the LCD panel manufacturers. I have yet to see any 14.1" IPS panel from any manufacturer.

[Aroc]

I've used the T43 before, .. isn't as annoying to me as the awkward placement of the Fn key; that HAS to be Cntrl.

Are you saying you want the four keys to be ordered {ctrl}{Fn}{Win}{Alt} ? It would seem if one was a touch typist the placement of ctrl closer to the Z key would be easier to hit with one's left pinky finger. Having the key all of the way at the end of the keyboard would make for a long stretch. My Dell Di400 s ordered with the ctrl all of the way ont he left side and it's hard to hit sometimes. But then again it seems that ctrl is always in a slightly diffferent position on each keyboard (even external full size desktop ones) so there is always a slight adjustment.

[pundit]

I've used the T43 before, .. isn't as annoying to me as the awkward placement of the Fn key; that HAS to be Cntrl.

Are you saying you want the four keys to be ordered {ctrl}{Fn}{Win}{Alt} ? It would seem if one was a touch typist the placement of ctrl closer to the Z key would be easier to hit with one's left pinky finger. Having the key all of the way at the end of the keyboard would make for a long stretch. My Dell Di400 s ordered with the ctrl all of the way ont he left side and it's hard to hit sometimes. But then again it seems that ctrl is always in a slightly diffferent position on each keyboard (even external full size desktop ones) so there is always a slight adjustment.

All I am saying, is that it has to be at the bottom left. So {Cntrl}{it doesn't matter}{Alt} will work for me.

It doesn't matter that it is hard to hit; since it's far more useful (and used) than {Fn} or {Win} it has to be at an obvious location I can reach without even thinking. This is a simple user interface thing, like Windows' window close button IS ALWAYS on the top right for a maximised window (you don't need to think too much, just slam the mouse on the top right and click to close---this is a good thing).

So while the rest of the world [censored] about the inclusion of the windows key, I will [censored] about the awkward placement of the control key. Being a user who literally lives in GNU Emacs, this is a big deal to me.

[astro]

Fair enough about the Ctrl key.

I always thought that the reason Fn was placed at the bottom-left corner was for the same reason the ThinkLight key is placed at the top-right corner. So you can find them easily in the dark -- another user-oriented design feature.

[donking!]

I always thought that the reason Fn was placed at the bottom-left corner was for the same reason the ThinkLight key is placed at the top-right corner. So you can find them easily in the dark -- another user-oriented design feature.

In and of itself, that's not a bad reason for IBM/Lenovo to place the the function key as it does (for the ThinkLight functionality). And the placement of the function key doesn't really bother me (though for the moment it does keep tripping me up). But it does seem a little bit arrogant on IBM/Lenovo's part to change the placement of a key that is pretty much universally found always in the same place (even on Macs). It doesn't seem very "user-oriented" in a broader sense to mess with basic things that people are going to have to deal with as they move from computer to computer (as most of us end up doing between home, work, etc.). Just another thought on the question.

[bigballinchatta]

Here's a summary of my 2623-D7u experience:

-3 March: 1st time buyer, dropped $2300 on this T60 based on faith from everything i've read about quality of product and good tech support
-29 March: Received T60
-A few hours later, 29 March: Shut down T60 and get blue screen, reads:

*NMI PARITY ERROR*.

I Call Tech Support, I wait on hold for 30 minutes, then they say they'll call me back in a few minutes.
-30 March: No callback. I'm not calling them because i dont want to be on hold for another 30 minutes.
-31 March: They call back. I explain the problem. I have to send it back on Monday, and when they get it they'll send me a new one.

I'm pretty angry, this is the first time i've ever spent so much on a computer, and it turns out its a lemon. Not only that, but tech support was slow and wasted a ton of my time. But i'm going to keep an open mind. If the next t60 is messed up though, goodbye lenovo.

Just letting you know my experience if you haven't bought yours yet.

[JaneL]

But it does seem a little bit arrogant on IBM/Lenovo's part to change the placement of a key that is pretty much universally found always in the same place (even on Macs). It doesn't seem very "user-oriented" in a broader sense to mess with basic things that people are going to have to deal with as they move from computer to computer (as most of us end up doing between home, work, etc.). Just another thought on the question.

Well, it's not like they moved the function key there starting with this model. It's been like that from the early ThinkPads, and placed there, it doesn't affect the "normal" keyboard layout.

[donking!]

Well, it's not like they moved the function key there starting with this model. It's been like that from the early ThinkPads, and placed there, it doesn't affect the "normal" keyboard layout.

I know it's been this way on the ThinkPads for a long time. But Lenovo still presumably wants to attract new customers? Not just people who have always used the ThinkPad and love them. The discussion was about the usability of the layout. Astro pointed out that there's a possible user-oriented purpose to the position of the function key (for activating the keypad light in the dark). I was pointing out that even if that's true and people buy that, in a larger scheme, it's not very useful to have a keyboard layout that differs from a standard element on pretty much all other keyboards.

I don't know what you mean by it doesn't effect the normal (really more or less universally adopted) keyboard layout. It's different from a standard layout that's on pretty much every other keyboard (desktop and laptop). Isn't that an "effect"? Isn't that a real difference (regardless of whether one cares about it)?

Pundit was complaining that it messes him up, that seems like an "effect" to me. I certainly have been tripping up on it since I got the T60. Again, I don't mind it and think I'll get use to it. But I can't imagine, for anyone who touch types, that it wouldn't take some getting used to. That also seems like an "effect" to me. And then getting used to it might mess you up when you go back to other computers (if you live in a world where you have to use other computers). Another "effect."

[Conmee]

Try using a Toshiba laptop if you want to mention non-standard key placements...

[pundit]

And then getting used to it might mess you up when you go back to other computers (if you live in a world where you have to use other computers). Another "effect."

And I do. I spend a long time getting used to the ThinkPad, then get to a real workstation to find out I need to unlearn and relearn. Once I get my computer back, I'll probably just remap the buttons to behave the way I want to, and not crib. It shouldn't be hard to do.

(Famous last words.)

[donking!]

Try using a Toshiba laptop if you want to mention non-standard key placements... Smile

Indeed. I'm sure there are others who like to mess around with the basics too, in various ways.

It's one of the things about usability design that is suprisingly often ignored. There's a huge value to standardization and not constantly "updating" and changing things.

Whatever preceived benefits the "updates" or "innovations" offer, they are often undermined by having to relearn yet another way of doing things. (And they're often, anyway, done more of the sake of being different or "new" than anything else.)

I'm not saying things should never change (hardly). Just that the changes should be weighed against the harm of losing existing experience and knowledge--and that in many cases the small benefits (if any) aren't really worth it.

[donking!]

I'll probably just remap the buttons to behave the way I want to, and not crib. It shouldn't be hard to do.

I wonder if there's a relatively straightforward way to do this in XP? If IBM/Lenovo wanted to provide a truly user friendly keyboard solution, the ability to completely remap the keyboard would be great. This sort of functionality exists in video editing software (and probably elsewhere), so it can't be too hard. As is, the Keyboard Customizer Utility that ships with the ThinkPad isn't very useful, because it only allows a couple keys to be changed.

I'd really like to remap the PgUp and PgDn functions to elsewhere. That's the thing that drives me crazy with the ThinkPad keyboard layout. The far upper right hand corner is totally out of the way for something that, at least, I do all the time. I'd like to have that functionality near (or in) the arrow keys. Whereas I really don't need the new page back and page foward keys, since that functionality is already built into Windows with the Alt + arrow key combination.

Okay, on quick Google glance, here's two keyboard remapping utilities:

http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick/
http://www.autohotkey.com/

I'll have to research this more later. Anyone know of any others? Good experiences? Bad experiences? Wouldn't want anything that uses a lot of system resources.

[pundit]

I wonder if there's a relatively straightforward way to do this in XP?

I wasn't thinking of an app to do this or even Windows XP; more along the lines of messing with some esoteric text file (.xmodmap) somewhere or forcibly messing with some low level keyboard interface source (and tearing much of my limited remaining hair out in the process).

Fun times ahead, I am sure.

To answer your question though, I don't believe a keyboard remapping utility would be expensive (in the sense of resource usage) at all.

[astro]

Just to add fuel to the fire...

iBooks and PowerBooks (and MBPs, no doubt) have/had the Fn key in that position as well. As an aside, Apple puts their "Ctrl" equivalent (the Command key, used for keyboard shortcuts) next to the space bar, which I personally find a superior layout because you hit it with your thumb.

This all goes back to my previous arguments about the Thinkpad being targeted at "business". Not to generalise, but I have personally met few "business" people who actually use the CTRL or ALT-based keyboard shortcuts available to them. They would rather click an icon or go burrowing through menus instead. This probably explains why I see so many of them running MSWord with toolbars stacked 6 deep and the taskbar 2 rows high and only 40% of the 1024x768 screen actually showing the document/web page, whatever. On the other hand, they are possibly more productive than people like me who fight tooth and nail for minutes/hours with MS to get back every millimetre of screen space and performance.

If this is their target market, then they are obviously going to run the risk of alienating people who have learned to use the CTRL in the corner...

What would be great is if you could remap any of the keys on the keyboard; I would think heavy emacs users would then opt for mapping the CapsLock key to CTRL like on the old UNIX terminal keyboards.

[pundit]

What would be great is if you could remap any of the keys on the keyboard; I would think heavy emacs users would then opt for mapping the CapsLock key to CTRL like on the old UNIX terminal keyboards.

It's funny you should mention that, because this is precisely an example annoyance that's been used in the xmodmap man page!

Code: Select all

remove Lock = Caps_Lock
remove Control = Control_L
keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
add Lock = Caps_Lock
add Control = Control_L

And voila, no more cribbing. Isn't freedom grand?