People really have the NMB keyboard?

[Army Chief]

Chiocrap may be over the top, but why would you comment on the quality of the keyboard if you've not used it.

Not really commenting on the quality of the keyboard, per se, except to say that you probably have to be pretty savvy and/or experienced user to really pick up on something like this. Most folks just get used to what they have, and don't think twice about it. I can accept that this Chicony may or may not be up to the usual T series standards, but I just have a hard time with the idea that most buyers will notice, or object to, the differences unless they have access to several T60s with different components.

Can you post a photo of the German NMB keyboard? How usable would it be to an American?

I'm not using a German-spec machine, Darren, having ordered on the regular IBM/Lenovo Government Sales site, and taken delivery to a standard U.S. address. In general, though, German keyboards are sufficiently different as to create a bit of confusion when they are used by someone accustomed to a standard U.S. layout.

It's akin to putting Continental tires on a Beemer.

Tsk, tsk ... Beemers are motorcycles -- you're talking about Bimmers. On that account, I can certainly follow the logic. I often run Continentals on the racetrack because they deliver 99th-percentile performance at a significantly lower price, but for regular Autobahn driving, the car is sitting on Michelins. (Keep in mind here that at least some of this is a rather American bias, as the Germans tend to prefer the Continentals.)

At no point was it really my intention to whiz in anyone's Wheaties, but I get the sense that most of us on this board are going to be a lot more seasoned user than the rank-and-file. My concern is for the neophyte user who will sign on to the board this weekend to learn more about his shiny, new ThinkPad T60 ... and by Monday will be depressed because he discovered that his keyboard (which he liked just fine before he came here) is actually second-rate because it isn't NMB or whatever. There's a subjective component to all of this that just makes me a bit wary of giving overtly negative opinions.

As I said, we in the die-hard ThinkPad crowd notice such things, and take an interest in the subtle shades of difference. Most everyone else is going to be fairly oblivious to it, I should think, until they come across threads like this one. As stated, I'm perfectly OK with favoring one part over another; I just think we need to tone down the rhetoric when we begin to see references to things like "Chicocrap" and such. There are classier ways of making the same point, if it is really worth making.

Chief

[donking!]

We would do well to remember here that ThinkPad keyboards have always been best in class, and the differences among them within a given product line -- even in this case -- are, in fact, pretty slight.

Chicocrap may be a bit precipitious of a conclusion, given that we haven't seen how these particular T60 Chicony keyboards hold up in the long run. But I have both the ALPS and the Chicony and the difference in feel (and noise) is very marked. There is nothing "pretty slight" about it. I also find it easier to touch type on the ALPS keyboard, because of it's feel. I type faster and with less errors on the ALPS. That may be a small distinction for people who type by other methods. But not for me. Ultimately, I think there are enough people here who feel the same way, that anyone who tends to care about this sort of thing can reasonably conclude they may want to try out the different keyboards. Just because one person doesn't appreciate the difference, doesn't mean that others won't or that the difference isn't real.

we would do well to keep in mind that IBM/Lenovo would not give a contract to a third-party vendor that was producing an inferior product; especially not for their flagship machine.

This type of IBM/Lenovo can do no wrong argument is often made to my bafflement in this forum. I think we need look no further than the fan problems of the past to know that, no matter how good the ThinkPads are, these machines are not perfect. It's my understanding that Chicony is a relatively new manufacturer of keyboards for ThinkPads, compared to ALPS and NMB (though it looks like Chicony has been around for at least a couple years). It would be nice to get feedback from people who have actually had the Chicony for a while on older models, about how it has held up in terms of durability. And how that compares to any other keyboards by ALPS or NMB that they've had.

[christopher_wolf]

Everybody still needs to keep in mind that this, rather long thread by any standards, is about....keyboards. Given that, Chief has a good point when it comes to what the newbie Thinkpad owner knows about his/her system. If they like it, based off their experiences alone, then they like it and shouldn't be "bummed out" to learn that there is this NMB keyboard that will blow them away, etc.

Yes, I like having an excellent-feel, top of the line keyboard; then again, I also like getting things done quickly whilst, in a crunch, it should matter little what equipment is actually used. I am very pleased with my NMB, but I think that I could still type away nicely on another Thinkpad with a Chicony or Alps with some minor modification....Yes, even touch-typing, which I am doing right now. I even know how to touch-type with a dvorak split layout.

[astro]

It would be nice to get feedback from people who have actually had the Chicony for a while on older models, about how it has held up in terms of durability. And how that compares to any other keyboards by ALPS or NMB that they've had.

According to the parts lookup page, I have a Chicony keyboard on my R40. I am not absolutely sure about this, because it is 2.5 yrs old now and maybe the manufacturing part was a NMB, but the replacement is Chicony. Maybe someone else can comment on this.

What I have to say, is -- in my opinion -- this (Chicony) keyboard is the best keyboard I've ever used, desktop or laptop. The weighting and travel of the keys is absolutely perfect. Not "mushy" at all -- it feels very precise. It is almost totally silent -- I think this is due to the cloth-like blanket which covers the keyboard underneath the keys. IIRC, the only desktop keyboard which ever came close was my circa '96 Honeywell Spacemate desktop keyboard (a rubber dome keyboard). The weight and quietness were very similar. Perhaps the only idiosyncrasy this R40 keyboard has is that it very occasionally double-hits (like the key bounce delay is not long enough), not enough to be annoying. If I had the exact same keyboard in my T60 (on order), I would be over the moon.

Now, all that said, the R40 is my first laptop, but I have briefly tried the T4x NMB keyboards of my colleagues and found them to be slightly noisier, with less resistance (keys are less springy). I don't like this lack of resistance. I like the reassuring weight that the R40's keys have. I had a 12" iBook for a year or so and while I adored the little thing, the keys were far, far too light.

Anyway, that's my 2c. I wonder if someone can comment on whether my keyboard is really Chicony, or if it is NMB.

[GomJabbar]

There's nothing wrong with preferring one part over another, but I think it is disingenuous to suggest that someone who got a Chicony (or ALPS) keyboard got ripped off, or should somehow be disappointed or let down. After all, most guys probably wouldn't even recognize a usable difference if we didn't make such a regular fuss about it.

I'm with you Army Chief. There is certainly no need to disparage differences in ThinkPads or their individual components in terms such as Chicocrap. There is no proof that these keyboards are in that catagory. If someone prefers an NMB keyboard to an Alps or Chicony, they can state that in a way that explains the difference. Name calling is just a method of One-Upmanship. To make your setup appear the best, and everyone elses second rate. It's even got me wondering. I have what is apparently an Alps keyboard. I am very happy with it. After reading some of these keyboard threads, I wonder if I would like an NMB keyboard more. Perhaps, but it is not worth it to me to replace it when I am already happy with what I've got.

We see false artificial values applied to things all the time. Just watch Antiques Roadshow, or search on e-bay for collector's items. The prices attached to these items is a perceived value that has no basis in reality. People buy these things to show-off - it is not because they are so much better than their less expensive brethren. But unfortunately people are lemmings. They will follow the crowd to their own detriment.

[donking!]

There is certainly no need to disparage differences in ThinkPads or their individual components in terms such as Chicocrap. There is no proof that these keyboards are in that catagory. If someone prefers an NMB keyboard to an Alps or Chicony, they can state that in a way that explains the difference.

This thread if filled mostly with people explaining, in cool, descriptive, rational manners, what they think of the different keyboards. There are plenty of other threads in this forum that do the same thing. I think we should give members and guests of the forum the benefit of the doubt that they are intelligent enough to read the entire thread or multiple threads and come to their own conclusions. If they're going to react to one over the top word and be swayed by that (and I do not contest that some people may react in this way), I doubt all of the lamenting of that word in the aftermath is going to make a difference.

I also find it a little bit curious that it's mostly people who have the much coveted NMB keyboard who are coming forward to defend the Chicony.

I would be a lot more persuaded if people who have the Chicony keyboard came forward and explained how they like the Chicony keyboard, specifically on the T60. astro's post about his Chicony is very interesting. Although it sounds like the keyboard design on the R40 is very different from the T60 (regardless of manufacturer).

That said, astro, thanks for the informative post. I do not see anything like the cloth-like blanket you describe on your R40 keyboard, on either the ALPS or Chicony for the T60. [Edit: Actually, there is a thin apparently rubber mat under the keys.] I don't know what accounts for the difference in sound the ALPS and Chicony T60 keyboards make, since they seem to follow the same design.

So again, how about people out there with the current T60 Chicony? Anyone really like it? Anyone try it and the ALPS or NMB and prefer it?

[christopher_wolf]

I think we should give members and guests of the forum the benefit of the doubt that they are intelligent enough to read the entire thread or multiple threads and come to their own conclusions. If they're going to react to one over the top word and be swayed by that (and I do not contest that some people may react in this way), I doubt all of the lamenting of that word in the aftermath is going to make a difference.

You don't say....?

[darrenf]

According to the parts lookup page, I have a Chicony keyboard on my R40. I am not absolutely sure about this, because it is 2.5 yrs old now and maybe the manufacturing part was a NMB, but the replacement is Chicony. Maybe someone else can comment on this.

I don't know who has made the keyboards historically, but the complaints about mushy keyboards started with the T42 when production was first moved to China. We didn't refer to them by manufacturer at the time, but the Thai-made keyboards (now known to be NMB) were the old, good, ones and the new Chinese-made keyboards were comically bad. I don't know if they were Alps or Chiconey but they had a flimsy base, mushy keys and the spacebar was so bad that pressing on one end of it would cause the other end to go up instead of down.

A Chinese keyboard was easy to spot because the back was covered in fingerprints from where the keys were manually pressed on (gotta love that cheap labor ).

If your computer is 2.5 years old, it wasn't made in China. I've not heard of those laptops having mushy keyboards. I'm pretty certain that your keyboard is the Thai-made one (NMB). If you're curious, pull it and look at the label.

-darren

[darrenf]

Army Chief,

I was just yanking your chain - I don't know anything about BMWs or their tires -- just pushing buttons.

I'm jealous of you guys with your NMB keyboards. I wish they would throw a few into stock so that we could order them from the parts department.

-darren

[christopher_wolf]

The T42 was the start of the China prouction for the T4X Series? I thought it was quite a bit older than that.

Also, look at the bumpers under the lower right arrow key set, if they are blue it is a good indication that you have an NMB keyboard.

[donking!]

Also, look at the bumpers under the lower right arrow key set, if they are blue it is a good indication that you have an NMB keyboard.

I don't think that's correct anymore with the T60s. The design of even the mechanics of the keyboard appears to be different. I'm going on images I've seen online of the bumpers on the T4x, however. Anyone who actually has the T4x and a T6x, perhaps could give us the correct information on this.

It would be interesting also to hear comparisons of the Chicony, ALPS, and NMB over time. How does the Chicony on the T4x compare to the T6x, etc. If anyone has actual experiences like that. Part of the question here is not just how does the Chicony compare to the ALPS and NMB, but how do the keyboard designs vary across models and over time differ.

darrenf, thanks for some info, in this regard.

[christopher_wolf]

Also, look at the bumpers under the lower right arrow key set, if they are blue it is a good indication that you have an NMB keyboard.

I don't think that's correct anymore with the T60s. The design of even the mechanics of the keyboard appears to be different. I'm going on images I've seen online of the bumpers on the T4x, however. Anyone who actually has the T4x and a T6x, perhaps could give us the correct information on this.

It would be interesting also to hear comparisons of the Chicony, ALPS, and NMB over time. How does the Chicony on the T4x compare to the T6x, etc. If anyone has actual experiences like that. Part of the question here is not just how does the Chicony compare to the ALPS and NMB, but how do the keyboard designs vary across models and over time differ.

darrenf, thanks for some info, in this regard.

I never said I was talking about the T60s in particular; rather, I was responding to the post Astro made about his R40.

[christopher_wolf]

Also, look at the bumpers under the lower right arrow key set, if they are blue it is a good indication that you have an NMB keyboard.

I don't think that's correct anymore with the T60s. The design of even the mechanics of the keyboard appears to be different. I'm going on images I've seen online of the bumpers on the T4x, however. Anyone who actually has the T4x and a T6x, perhaps could give us the correct information on this.

It would be interesting also to hear comparisons of the Chicony, ALPS, and NMB over time. How does the Chicony on the T4x compare to the T6x, etc. If anyone has actual experiences like that. Part of the question here is not just how does the Chicony compare to the ALPS and NMB, but how do the keyboard designs vary across models and over time differ.

darrenf, thanks for some info, in this regard.

I never said I was talking about the T60s in particular; rather, I was responding to the post Astro made about his R40 and the post Darrenf was talking about as well.

[darrenf]

The T42 was the start of the China prouction for the T4X Series? I thought it was quite a bit older than that.

Keep in mind that production was out of Mexico before it was moved to China. Perhaps you're thinking of when production was moved out of the US.

-darren

[christopher_wolf]

The T42 was the start of the China prouction for the T4X Series? I thought it was quite a bit older than that.

Keep in mind that production was out of Mexico before it was moved to China. Perhaps you're thinking of when production was moved out of the US.

-darren

I quite possibly am, but in the space between "Hecho en Mexico" and "Made in China," I am not entirely sure what exact changes were made to the T4X Series.

[astro]

Okay, I'd love to cross-post to the R40 forum, but the question was asked here.

A Chinese keyboard was easy to spot because the back was covered in fingerprints from where the keys were manually pressed on (gotta love that cheap labor ).

If your computer is 2.5 years old, it wasn't made in China. I've not heard of those laptops having mushy keyboards. I'm pretty certain that your keyboard is the Thai-made one (NMB). If you're curious, pull it and look at the label.

Okay, here is the alleged Chicony keyboard:

[Back of R40 keyboard]
I still have no idea where it is made -- it doesn't have fingerprints on the back, or anything saying "Thailand", "China" or otherwise... In fact, the only geo* indicator is Model No: D387-US. The scribble looks like typical QC markings. Have a look and tell me what you think.

I do not see anything like the cloth-like blanket you describe on your R40 keyboard, on either the ALPS or Chicony for the T60.

Also, look at the bumpers under the lower right arrow key set, if they are blue it is a good indication that you have an NMB keyboard.

Here's a close-up:

[Close-up of bottom-right arrow keys]
You'll have to excuse the ~eugh~ crumbs under there. It's actually black in appearance -- it's just a couple years old.

I don't know what you mean by "blue bumpers". Also, here you can clearly see the screwdriver lifting up the rubber 'skirt' which sits under the keys. The keys actually mash (softly) into the skirt when depressed -- greatly enhancing the feel and also making no noise apart from a dull thud as if you were tapping your finger on a table. This noise, + the sound of your fingertip actually contacting the key are the only noises the keyboard makes. No clicky, rattly springs; nothing. Brilliant.

EDIT: Just had a thought about why the T60 doesn't have this rubber 'skirt': drainage. The R40 keyboard is doesn't have the "drain hole" system. I think the rubber would greatly impede the effectiveness of liquid drainage.

[christopher_wolf]

Hmm, the sound you are describing sounds like my NMB's arrow key set...Bumpers was, perhaps, a poor choice of wording....There are blue rubber columns under the keys and a hint of blue on the flat pad portion as well near the corner of the "cut-out" portion on the keyboard.

[Hanson]

The FRU number on your picture is 08k4757. Look it up on IBM's website and you'll see that it is a CHICONY http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 45961.html

[darrenf]

Good work Astro and Hanson!

-darren

[donking!]

Here's a link to an image from another thread, that shows the blue bumpers:

http://www.pbase.com/image/31679720.jpg

The thread is: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=2177

These are T42 keyboards, that have the bumpers. The ALPS and Chicony keyboards that I have, for the T60, not only lack rubber bumpers, but appear to use an entirely different type of mechanism for the depression of the keys. It is a sort of lever mechanism. I assume the design is the same on the T60 NMB keyboards, but it would be nice to hear from someone who has one.

It would also be really interesting to hear comparisons of the T4x NMB vs T6x NMB, T4x Chicony vs T6x Chicony, etc. Since the design does appear to have changed.

*

I just checked more closely and I was wrong about the rubber skirt under the keys. There is a skirt or mat of some type under the keys on the ALPS and Chicony T60 keyboard. It appears to be made out of rubber though the material doesn't seem that soft. So it's hard to imagine how much of a damping effect it would have.

[Army Chief]

I was just yanking your chain - I don't know anything about BMWs or their tires -- just pushing buttons.

I don't tend to invest a lot of emotional capital in online discussion forums, so I'm not really prone to taking offense. That said, I gathered that you were only having some fun, so no worries.

All of this follow-on discussion has me curious about going back and dissecting some of my old T41 keyboards. I've gone through three of them (in large part a consequence of exposure to the talc-like sand in Iraq), and none of them were built the same.

By the third time I needed to make a change, I tried to cannibalize the other two keyboards to get the small repair parts I needed, but as it turned out, the under-key support structures were completely different. None of them were compatible with any of the others.

At the time, I chalked this up to incremental design improvements showing up on the newer components, but in reality, I'm now wondering if it may have simply been a case of three different manufacturers. It seems likely that this must factor into all of this somehow. Interesting.

Chief

[darrenf]

It may indeed be the case that this issue predates the T42. I peg that as the start of the trouble because when I and others pointed out the problems in some of the T42 keyboards, it seemed to be a surprise to everyone. I don't remember reading comments at the time about similar problems in earlier keyboards.

It was acknowledged that different models had different keyboard designs but it was also generally accepted that they were all high-quality designs whereas the Chinese assembled T42 keyboards were plain aweful, at least at the outset.

-darren

[Razorback]

My T60p (2008-93U, SN L3A3083) arrived today.

This unit has the Chicony keyboard. A guy in the office had a T60p with an Alps (sent it back.) For reference, my other machine is a T42p with a "Thai" keyboard.

First, keyboards: this Chicony is actually pretty good. Easily as good as most "modern" TPs (A20 series and up.) Not quite as good as the NMB. However, at least to me, it's much better than the Alps on my buddy's T60p. My main gripe is the Chicony is a bit "clacky", but has a smoother feel than the Alps.

Build quality: night and day compared to my buddy's T60p. His squeaked and popped on the left edge above the NIC/modem port and also on the right next where the palmrest meets the hard drive cover. My T60p is rock solid; it's what I would expect from a Thinkpad.

I haven't had a chance to do installs and the like. Overall I'm pleased with the build quality and reasonably happy with the keyboard.

My TP history (if it matters) includes: 770ED, 770X, 770Z, 600X, A20p, A21p, A22p, A31p, R50p, T42p, and now T60p.

R

[GomJabbar]

My TP history (if it matters) includes: 770ED, 770X, 770Z, 600X, A20p, A21p, A22p, A31p, R50p, T42p, and now T60p.

R

Informative post. Thanks for the review.
Lot of 'Padding going on there........

[Razorback]

Well I tend to "hand down" the previous TPs to others here at the company

R

[darrenf]

Well I tend to "hand down" the previous TPs to others here at the company

A practice as old as computers themselves.

-darren

[archer6]

Chicocrap? Aren't we getting a bit carried away here boys?

I agree, this is condeming a good product with some offhand comment.

I can appreciate that the different keyboards may have different "feel" characteristics to them, but we would do well to keep in mind that IBM/Lenovo would not give a contract to a third-party vendor that was producing an inferior product; especially not for their flagship machine.

This is also correct in my opinion.

In the dozen-plus years that I've been buying ThinkPads, I've used just about every possible keyboard combination from just about every possible subcontractor. Not once did I ever get a keyboard that was unworthy of the machine.

Exactly ! Every keyboard of every ThinkPad I have had, or currently have, perform the job quite nicely. I too have quite a collection of ThinkPads and have used them daily as my main computer. Each of mine have many hours of usage and are "still" in very fine working order.

We would do well to remember here that ThinkPad keyboards have always been best in class, and the differences among them within a given product line -- even in this case -- are, in fact, pretty slight.

One would do well, to compare any of the ThinkPad keyboards to the competition, such as Dell, HP, Acer, etc. The ThinkPad keyboard is _significantly better_ than the competition.

I've got plenty of other ThinkPads in the house in other configurations, and I just don't think we've framed this issue as well as we might have. There's nothing wrong with preferring one part over another, but I think it is disingenuous to suggest that someone who got a Chicony (or ALPS) keyboard got ripped off

I have the Chicony on 2 of my newest ThinkPad's the T and the Z models. I am quite happy with the Chicony keyboard, it's much better than many people portray here. Certainly not an inferior product, as Chief says simply different.

When I take inventory, I find that I have a few (more than 2) of each brand especially the NMB (4) and it's my opinion that it's a personal preference issue more than quality or tactile feel. I touch type at a very high rate, and find that the Chicony performs (in that category) very well. I prefer the Chicony for the speed I can maintain with it. The NMB & Alps are nice keyboards, however from my experience the Chicony also has it's advantages.

[Sumers]

I recently had 2 T60's (one 15" flexview, one 14") One had the Alpls, one the chicony, so I was able to compare them side by side. The Alps was quieter, with a softer, spongier feel. The Chicony was a little nosier (clackety, slitely) and was definitely not as quiet. The Alps had a deeper throw, the chiconey less. While I liked the Alps's feel and quietness more, I made less typing errors on the chicony - the alps requried a deeper depression - required more force to engage, despiete its better feel. I could see how some people would preferr the Chicony for fast touch typing - I was able to type with far fewer errors on it, despite the fact that the Alps had a much nicer feel, was quieter. I've not tried the NMB. I kept the 14" for other reasons, and have adapted to the Chicony nicely. BTW, the keyboard on my old T20 was better than either: soft, quiet, and faster.

[perry_78]

I have a NMB. 39T0963

2007-FRG, czech layout keyboard.

To be honest, I liked the Thai version more.

[Kel Ghu]

To be honest, I liked the Thai version more.

Agreed