Thinkpads Forum

I have read a lot of posts/threads explaining how the T60 was a downgrade in the model line and how many people dislike all the new changes. I came to this forum excited because I was going to own a Thinkpad, the most durable machine with the absolute best keyboard available.

Now I head that their newest models are turning to crap and the keyboards are random, you might get a sweet thai NMB or you might get a lemon...this kind of sucks and puts us lenovo people who need new laptops in a bad position.

Anyways, I would like to know if these "downgrades" are truly a lack of quality and if everyone is losing faith in Lenovo.

Also, I am hesitant you buy one because I have no idea when they are going to come out with the next T series model, which might not have all of these "downgrades" in the package. Thought I do need a laptop by June/July so I must decide sometime soon.

I have also heard negative remarks about the material Lenovo is now using for their casing. I heard people say that it was not near as durable as their T4x was. Anyways, yes I have done massive amount of research but I would like some opinions from some Thinkpad Veterens.

Thank you very much for your time

To kashton

I am a long time laptop user. It's mission critical for my business. After using Toshiba / Compaq / Dell, etc. years ago I switched to ThinkPads.

I have purchased new Thinkpads each year (for many years), as it's my main computer for my business travel, and I need as much computing power as possible.

2 weeks ago my new T60 arrived (2007-73U) and I could not be happier.

Am I as obsessed as some of the members here? ... absolutely. I'm very picky about my computers / cars / etc. I have experience with all the different keyboards, displays etc and I can say (IMHO) that while there may be some differences, it's very, very minor in my experience. My T60 is as good if not better than any previous model I have owned, the (partial) list is below in my signature.

In addition, I have had them apart to perform various upgrades. I just took the palm rest off the T60 to add 1 gig additional memory. There is a movie on the ThinkPad site which shows exactly how to do it. While doing so I carefully inspected the case material as there has been some complaints about flexing near the PC card Express Card slots. I can assure you that this material is very high quality and durable. It's CFRP, which is Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic. Not too much unlike Indy car chassis material, just a different formula if you will.

Finally there is the World Class Fast Service from the warranty department. I have only had to send two in, once because user error (dropped) and the other was a failed hard drive. Both times it was free, including the shipping container, and they were repaired & returned in just 3 days. What more could one ask for?

I do not work for Lenovo/IBM, just someone who uses the computer as the tool that I make my living with.

Any questions? Let me know, I'll be happy to answer.

kashton wrote:I have read a lot of posts/threads explaining how the T60 was a downgrade in the model line and how many people dislike all the new changes. I came to this forum excited because I was going to own a Thinkpad, the most durable machine with the absolute best keyboard available.

Now I head that their newest models are turning to crap and the keyboards are random, you might get a sweet thai NMB or you might get a lemon...this kind of sucks and puts us lenovo people who need new laptops in a bad position.

Anyways, I would like to know if these "downgrades" are truly a lack of quality and if everyone is losing faith in Lenovo.

Also, I am hesitant you buy one because I have no idea when they are going to come out with the next T series model, which might not have all of these "downgrades" in the package. Thought I do need a laptop by June/July so I must decide sometime soon.

I have also heard negative remarks about the material Lenovo is now using for their casing. I heard people say that it was not near as durable as their T4x was. Anyways, yes I have done massive amount of research but I would like some opinions from some Thinkpad Veterens.

Thank you very much for your time

Don't worry too much, this was the same kind of crud going around when the T43 came out. You get whatever keyboard you get even if you order one of the T4X Series machines, nothing much has changed in that regard. To some extent, Lenovo makes a convienent place to put the blame; as evidenced by, sometimes quite rabid, reports of the T43 even though it was still designed by IBM and had been on the drawing board for awhile.

I am going to say that the quality has not gone down, there are just differing perceptions and *alot* of insight into these perceptions,

In addition, some people like the NMB keyboard better, some like others better. In no way is a functioning keyboard to be called a "lemon;" in such an event as the user being dissatisfied with said keyboard, then another one can be ordered and replace the one that shipped with the original Thinkpad. This hasn't changed going from the T4X Series Thinkpads to the T6X Series Thinkpads.

I don't know, from the posts I've read from people who have received T60's most say that it's actually built better and a general improvement over the T42/ T43. As far as the keyboard it was the same case with the T4x series, there were plenty of posts at the time discussing the pros and cons of the different keyboards. As far as looks is concerned that is totally subjective. I would think the rolll cage is a big improvement over the T4x. The one big downside I see is the pain in the neck it seems to add ram. I don't mind that it's under the palmrest if it's easily removed and replaced but it seems some people are having quite a time replacing the palmrest. The last thing I would want is to hear cracking plastic when replacing the plamrest after adding ram!

Using a bit of caution, I upgraded the memory in both my T60 & Z60 within 20 minutes total for both computers. No problem, nothing destroyed

archer6 wrote:Using a bit of caution, I upgraded the memory in both my T60 & Z60 within 20 minutes total for both computers. No problem, nothing destroyed

This is good advice for anything, especially computer upgrades. *Always* plan out what you are doing in advance, print out the manual, then think through it when you are doing it. If you want, draw it out on a piece of paper and diagram it as well.

christopher_wolf

Well said, that's exactly the way to go. I found removing the palm rest especially easy and the build quality inside was outstanding.

Yes, it came off very easy. Re-assembly was another story. The movie was very helpful although.

Very nicely built inside.

archer6 wrote:christopher_wolf

Well said, that's exactly the way to go. I found removing the palm rest especially easy and the build quality inside was outstanding.

archer6 wrote:To kashton

I am a long time laptop user. It's mission critical for my business. After using Toshiba / Compaq / Dell, etc. years ago I switched to ThinkPads.

I have purchased new Thinkpads each year (for many years), as it's my main computer for my business travel, and I need as much computing power as possible.

2 weeks ago my new T60 arrived (2007-73U) and I could not be happier.

Am I as obsessed as some of the members here? ... absolutely. I'm very picky about my computers / cars / etc. I have experience with all the different keyboards, displays etc and I can say (IMHO) that while there may be some differences, it's very, very minor in my experience. My T60 is as good if not better than any previous model I have owned, the (partial) list is below in my signature.

In addition, I have had them apart to perform various upgrades. I just took the palm rest off the T60 to add 1 gig additional memory. There is a movie on the ThinkPad site which shows exactly how to do it. While doing so I carefully inspected the case material as there has been some complaints about flexing near the PC card Express Card slots. I can assure you that this material is very high quality and durable. It's CFRP, which is Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic. Not too much unlike Indy car chassis material, just a different formula if you will.

Finally there is the World Class Fast Service from the warranty department. I have only had to send two in, once because user error (dropped) and the other was a failed hard drive. Both times it was free, including the shipping container, and they were repaired & returned in just 3 days. What more could one ask for?

I do not work for Lenovo/IBM, just someone who uses the computer as the tool that I make my living with.

Any questions? Let me know, I'll be happy to answer.

archer6 - Thank you for that reply, that is exactly what I needed to hear

I do want to ask though, how much memory did you order your T60 with, b/c I am hesitant on ordering 1 gig and then installing another myself. I do not even know what kind I would get, I think you need the same kind of RAM installed on both slots but I could be wrong.

What warranty do you normally buy with the Thinkpads? There were many warranties available, what works best in your experience?

What configuration did you order on your T60?

Thank you again

for warranty, I always go with 3-4 years with the thinkpad protection program. That way, if im a dumbass and drop the machine causing LCD damage or plastics damage i can just call them up and have them replace it. well worth it IMO, LCD replacements are expensive and a pain to install, same goes for plastics... some plastic parts are quite hard to find in new condition.

lithium726 wrote: ... That way, if im a dumbass and drop the machine causing LCD damage or plastics damage i can just call them up and have them replace it. ...

Too funny lithium! I've been there, done that. I know what you mean!




-CupOfJoe

lithium726 wrote:for warranty, I always go with 3-4 years with the thinkpad protection program. That way, if im a dumbass and drop the machine causing LCD damage or plastics damage i can just call them up and have them replace it. well worth it IMO, LCD replacements are expensive and a pain to install, same goes for plastics... some plastic parts are quite hard to find in new condition.

is LCD damage really covered by waranty??

lithium726 wrote:for warranty, I always go with 3-4 years with the thinkpad protection program. That way, if im a dumbass and drop the machine causing LCD damage or plastics damage i can just call them up and have them replace it. well worth it IMO, LCD replacements are expensive and a pain to install, same goes for plastics... some plastic parts are quite hard to find in new condition.

If you have renters or homeowners insurance, for about $10 to $20 a year you can usually get a rider for computers that will cover all such damage to all of your computers at home or wherever you take them.

Essentially, the ThinkPad Protection program is insurance, which IBM/Lenovo sells you for a limited period of time. But they're charging an extremely high rate for the amount of coverage they offer. $169 for the three year plan is almost 3 times the cost of what you can get from renters/homeowners insurance. And that's just for one computer, not all your computers. That's why computer companies like to sell these policies. It's just money in the bank for them (because most people will never use it).

And ThinkPad Protection doesn't cover fire or theft, which would be covered by homeowners/renters insurance.

Kashton, I'm curious about where you've seen all these posts about the t60 "turning to crap" and being a step down in quality?!

I started a thread in this forum to please give me indications of why it would sense for me to NOT buy a T60: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=22570
The reason being that the topseller versions don't arrive in my country until next Monday. However, with the posts I've read in the link above go to prove that I would have been sorry if I hadn't waited for the t60. The worst 'step down' from the recent models seem to be the annoying windows key between alt and ctrl But, if that's the worst down grade ...


Rex

Teerex wrote:Kashton, I'm curious about where you've seen all these posts about the t60 "turning to crap" and being a step down in quality?!


Rex

I am curious too. The T60/p is great machine. Build quality is outstanding. Most comments I have read here and elsewhere are consistent with this...

rocketman wrote:The one big downside I see is the pain in the neck it seems to add ram. I don't mind that it's under the palmrest if it's easily removed and replaced but it seems some people are having quite a time replacing the palmrest.

Yeah, I can understand this. I'm not particularly challenged, but the first time I replaced RAM in the under-the-keyboard slot in my T42, I pressed too hard on the keyboard and broke a key. My old laptop is a Compaq Evo. Now that machine is the easiest in the world to replace RAM in. Both slots are directly under the left palmrest, which is removed without any screws at all. You just grab underneath it with something hard and flat (a screwdriver or even your fingernails will do) and pull up. Replace RAM, press down and it clicks into place.

Rose wrote:

lithium726 wrote:for warranty, I always go with 3-4 years with the thinkpad protection program. That way, if im a dumbass and drop the machine causing LCD damage or plastics damage i can just call them up and have them replace it. well worth it IMO, LCD replacements are expensive and a pain to install, same goes for plastics... some plastic parts are quite hard to find in new condition.

is LCD damage really covered by waranty??

it is with the TPP program. it is not under standard warranty. basically, if you damage the system in any way (excluding flood or fire damage) youre covered by IBM.

If you have renters or homeowners insurance, for about $10 to $20 a year you can usually get a rider for computers that will cover all such damage to all of your computers at home or wherever you take them.

i dont have that at the moment, nor have i ever needed it... im only 19 right now, living in the dorms, fresh out my parents house(and yes, i pay for all my own computers)... im still learning about all of this insurance crap How does this work, exactly? How does renters insurance get my LCD replaced, for example?

lithium726 wrote:i dont have that at the moment, nor have i ever needed it... im only 19 right now, living in the dorms, fresh out my parents house(and yes, i pay for all my own computers)... im still learning about all of this insurance crap How does this work, exactly? How does renters insurance get my LCD replaced, for example?

You can actually call an insurance agent where you are and give you the details. I have heard that they don't all offer the same coverage. I have about $50,000 insurance on computer equipment, because of all the PCs and Laptops that I have, not to mention my wife's $4,000 laser printer. I wouldn't use this as quickly as I would the TPP, because the TPP is for however long you have the plan. Homeowners insurance is likely to effect your rates if you were to place a claim.

sounds like it would be a bit of a bigger pain in the [censored] than calling in, telling them you screwed up, shipping it off for a couple days for free and getting new stuff back...

the price increase really isnt that bad... a LCD replacement on ebay would run more than the price you pay for the warranty upgrade, and your warranty remains in tact since IBM replaces it instead of you...

Teerex wrote:Kashton, I'm curious about where you've seen all these posts about the t60 "turning to crap" and being a step down in quality?!

I started a thread in this forum to please give me indications of why it would sense for me to NOT buy a T60: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=22570
The reason being that the topseller versions don't arrive in my country until next Monday. However, with the posts I've read in the link above go to prove that I would have been sorry if I hadn't waited for the t60. The worst 'step down' from the recent models seem to be the annoying windows key between alt and ctrl But, if that's the worst down grade ...


Rex

I really do not feel like explaining where I got this information. From reading many threads around here and notebookreview.com I got the image that they were going downhill from the T43 and I just listed some complaints that I heard a lot of. I heard a lot of negative remarks lately and I was worried, that is why I started this thread. This is getting way too complicated though

It's true that the ThinkPad Protection coverage is probably more convenient, more no questions asked, more one stop and everything is taken care of. But you're paying a lot for that.

For a little less convenience, you get (in some ways) better coverage with home owners/renters insurance for a lot less money. With the example of the LCD, if it was broken (say you stepped on it or dropped it), you'd have it repaired by IBM and then you'd make a claim on the insurance and they'd reimburse you.

One big disadvantage of the ThinkPad protection plan is that it doesn't cover theft. That would be covered by insurance. On the other hand, insurance tends not to cover if the computer fails of its own accord (hard drive stops working, etc.). It covers accidental damage and theft. But it all depends on the plan. You have to call up insurance companies and ask them what they offer.

The way it generally works is you have insurance on your house (homeowners insurance) or insurance on your belongings if you rent (renters insurance). You can get renters insurance living in a college dorm. The renters insurance covers the value of your belongings up to a certain amount that you chose ($20,000, $40,000, whatever you figure out all your stuff is worth and that you want to insure it for). You can then get a rider adding additional coverage for computers, which means your computers are covered even when you take them out of the residence and in other additional circumstances. It's this rider that I was saying can cost only $10 or $20 a year. Of course, now you're paying for the whole renters insurance policy, probably at least a couple hundred dollars a year, plus the rider.

So if you don't want the renters/homeowners insurance policy anyway, it may not be worth it just to get the computer rider. But if you already have a policy for your own reasons, the computer rider can be a good deal.

kashton wrote:I really do not feel like explaining where I got this information. From reading many threads around here and notebookreview.com I got the image that they were going downhill from the T43 and I just listed some complaints that I heard a lot of. I heard a lot of negative remarks lately and I was worried, that is why I started this thread. This is getting way too complicated though

While the participants at notebookreview may know there stuff, I doubt that you will find a more rabid group of thinkpad diehards, evangelists and dissectors than at thinkpads.com. If you want the scoop on Thinkpads, from people that have used them for over a decade, you come here.

My general impression of the reviews over at Notebook Review is that they like the T43 and T60. But maybe I missed something.

astro wrote:

kashton wrote:I really do not feel like explaining where I got this information. From reading many threads around here and notebookreview.com I got the image that they were going downhill from the T43 and I just listed some complaints that I heard a lot of. I heard a lot of negative remarks lately and I was worried, that is why I started this thread. This is getting way too complicated though

While the participants at notebookreview may know there stuff, I doubt that you will find a more rabid group of thinkpad diehards, evangelists and dissectors than at thinkpads.com. If you want the scoop on Thinkpads, from people that have used them for over a decade, you come here.

O YAS; naturally I am a tad biased, but these *are* the one and only Thinkpad Forums whereas Notebookreview is for <crossout>making fun of dells and other cheap knockoffs</crossout> an in-depth and comprehensive overview of *all* the mobile computing solutions provided by industry today...Although they do seem to like Thinkpads as well (Oh, and who wouldn't by the way? ).

Diehards? Yes...I, myself, have owned a 701c (still do and it works ) from the start along with a Powerbook.

Evangelists? Well, why not?

Dissectors? Indeed, take a look at some of the mods that have been done by our members.

Rabid? Absolutely.

Kashton, I just took my T60 apart to install another stick of RAM and was blown away. I can't believe how well built the internals of the T60 are.

I dare anyone to find a better built laptop. IMHO, the T60 is much more rugged than the T43 (Note to Chris Wolf - I didn't say the T43 was bad, OK brah?)

The plam rest came off easy, but I did have to struggle to put it back on. The trick I think is to:

1.) get the edge at the front of the laptop secured evenly first, then,

2.) use your finger in the middle of the edge that goes next to the keyboard to help flex the palm rest up to rehook the latches.

Not too bad really.

Now the mystery: my keyboard has a part number (38T7148) that is not listed on the parts sheet for a 20075BU!

Huh?

It is definitelty one of the great KBs, though; quiet and very solid.

Me no ask anymore questions....

fullauto wrote:I dare anyone to find a better built laptop. IMHO, the T60 is much more rugged than the T43 (Note to Chris Wolf - I didn't say the T43 was bad, OK brah?)

Mmmm? Oh, that's just fine since the internals of the T43 are almost identical to the rest of the T4X Series....So you are going to have to deal with the irate T42ers, T41ers, and T40ers, as well. Have funny buddy.


Glad you like your new T60; and I believe you when you say that the internals of the T60 are well built.

I pulled my palm rest off also today, not to install ram but to see everyone is complaining about. It was too bad but the latches on the palm rest are plastic. The kind that will snap right off if you get to rough with it.

One the right side of the palm rest I was getting a squeaking noise where the palm rest hit the cover for the hard drive which is removable. It was getting on the annoying so I took that off and that is just plastic. If Lenovo would have put a small piece of foam on the edges it wouldn't be squeaking. So I grabbed some black electrical tape and taped the inside of the edge of that little hard drive cover. (I could find anything else to use) and squeaking all gone!

Anyone else with that annoying little issue?

christopher_wolf wrote:
Glad you like your new T60; and I believe you when you say that the internals of the T60 are well built.

The T60 is a beauty. If I didn't need a new laptop right away I probably would have waited like you are doing.

But so far sheesa looking real good.

Mandrake, no squeaks on mine. No loose battery neither, although I only have the 6-cell.

Battery life is a bit short (< 2 hours), but that is not a big issue for me at the moment.

fullauto did you get the 15" or 14" version?

[quote="fullauto"][quote="christopher_wolf"]

Mandrake, no squeaks on mine. No loose battery neither, although I only have the 6-cell.

DO T60'S HAVE A LOOSE BATTERY PROBLEM? I HAVE NOTICED A FEW THREADS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE COMPLAINED ABOUT THIS.