Dark shadows -- Reprise (Warning, 3 pictures)

[darrenf]

dxben,

I went to my local AV shop and they don't carry Fuji so I couldn't look at one. In fact, I don't remember a single plasma but I was probably just on the wrong side of the room -- I really wanted to see the cheaper Sony LCOSs. All the screens I looked at were native 1080p fed from hard drives and all looked better than the ones I saw a year ago (quite a bit better). The three distractions that will keep me from replacing my RPTV are shimmer in the shaddows (subtle but present), crappy scalers for SD content and jaggies.

For the life of me I don't understand why it's so hard to eliminate the jaggies. It seems like it would just be a matter of moving the focal plane to blur the pixels or something. I find it terribly distracting.

My comment about FPTV and black level is because the image is projected onto a white screen. Unless the whole picture is black and the room completely dark the dark areas won't be black no matter how good the projector is.

I saw my first plasma 22 years ago and looked at them critically about 18 months ago. As little as the technology changed in that time, I doubt that it has improved to the degree you describe in a year and a half. Black levels can be improved by putting a dark filter on the front, but that lowers the threshhold for blooming. Correct me if I'm wrong but the color sub-pixels are still adjacent rather than overlapping, so I'm sure that I wouldn't be happy.

Perhaps if the viewing distance was set at the SD rule-of-thumb of 7x diagonal measure these issues would go away, but at the HD multiple of 3x, I have always seen the pixel structure in plasma sets.

What is the resolution and diagonal measure of the Fuji you have?

-darren

[pundit]

Did you notice just less dark area (in terms of size), or that the affected area is less noticeable?

It's a combination of the following:

1. It was over a smaller area.
2. It was less contrasty (as in less intense an effect).
3. I am comparing the 15"'s worst case scenario (suitably chosen backdrop, angle, ...) and the default MBP.
4. The widescreen makes me have to pan my eyes to actually see all of it in detail when I sit up close, which makes me not stare as often at the bottom corners by accident.
5. The flippin huge default OS X dock and OS X's refusal to maximise windows (who the heck thought that was such a bright move?) to the full makes my eyes rarely go there. On the 15" Flexview, all I needed to do is maximise, say, a browser window and stare at the status bar at the bottom to get irked.

[pundit]

In addition, while I do not see this as a deal breaker. It is from an educational standpoint, quite interesting.

It's (obviously) been a deal breaker in the past for me, but my issues also stemmed from a lack of admission that it was a KNOWN, COMMON, NOT EASILY CORRECTABLE issue.

[dxben]

I went to my local AV shop and they don't carry Fuji so I couldn't look at one.

darrenf, check out http://www.plasmavision.com/where_to_buy.htm to find a dealer near you. They were carried by Magnolia HT stores (inside some Best Buys) but recently were dropped because they were considered too high end even for those stores. Most people don't see the differences, most people are not like us. We obviously have a keen interest in image quality.

In fact, I don't remember a single plasma but I was probably just on the wrong side of the room -- I really wanted to see the cheaper Sony LCOSs. All the screens I looked at were native 1080p fed from hard drives and all looked better than the ones I saw a year ago (quite a bit better).

Keep in mind that the 1080p is really meaningless at the moment and for the immediate future. Those displays cannot even accept a 1080p signal, the most they take are 1080i, all they do is upscale to their 1080p resolution, so you are not gaining much. Furthermore, unless you are sitting very close, as you seem to be concerned with, 1080p is not going to give you much. But I can tell you that I sit a very comfortable 8 feet from my 50" Fuji and with my very critical eye I see no screen door effect. I have to be 3 feet in front before they appear visible.

The three distractions that will keep me from replacing my RPTV are shimmer in the shaddows (subtle but present), crappy scalers for SD content and jaggies.

For the life of me I don't understand why it's so hard to eliminate the jaggies. It seems like it would just be a matter of moving the focal plane to blur the pixels or something. I find it terribly distracting.

I am not sure what you mean by shimmer, maybe you mean banding? This can be from different things, sometimes its the compression in the source material (its worse with highly compressed DVDs or even HD cable feeds. Its almost non existent on DVHS. However it can also be the digital color decoding in the set and it varies set to set. That said I've seen it even on Direct View CRTs, so I believe right now its predominantly a feed issue.

As far as the jaggies and the crappy scalers, that is exactly why I bought the Fuji. Fuji has the AVMII scaler, they built it and its award winning. SD tv on my Fuji is absolutely amazing, presuming its a recently filmed SD source, and not 50 year old converted video, SD is stunning, there are no jaggies, none.

My comment about FPTV and black level is because the image is projected onto a white screen. Unless the whole picture is black and the room completely dark the dark areas won't be black no matter how good the projector is.

Sort of true, although there are many types of screens, some are gray, and different gains will make a difference. When you go to the movie theater keep in mind this is no dfferent, so we have to sort of pick a point where we're being clinical, and when we really can tell. I can tell you that you will not be able to see light on a $40k Qualia front projector with a proper screen in a lightless room. Projector quality absolutely is a factor here.

I saw my first plasma 22 years ago and looked at them critically about 18 months ago. As little as the technology changed in that time, I doubt that it has improved to the degree you describe in a year and a half.

Well the Fuji has not improved that much in 18 months, in fact the major improvement has been the AVM scaler 2.0 version. But you didn't see the Fuji 18 months ago and I agree, mid level plasmas to me today do not impress me at all. And I have to stress again how important it is that you are watching a calibrated image. Unfortunately these plasmas are shipped from the factory in a way that make them stand out on the showroom floor of big box stores like Best Buy. I can make my Fuji look awful if I set it on the "Floor" setting. You need to make sure they are at least partially tweaked and the best place to do this is at a custom AV shop.

Black levels can be improved by putting a dark filter on the front, but that lowers the threshhold for blooming. Correct me if I'm wrong but the color sub-pixels are still adjacent rather than overlapping, so I'm sure that I wouldn't be happy.

Let me say, I used to be a black level freak. I was going to get the 34" XBR Sony just for black level reasons, even though it is such a big pig of a TV and has a tiny screen. But I have to tell you, the black levels are so good on the Fuji that the tradeoff is worth all of the benefits. SED will have better black levels, CRT black levels in fact. But short of that, you cannot get better black levels in a flat display and in the plasma category, nothing competes with the Panasonic glass inside a Fuji. Pioneer Elite plasmas come close though.

Perhaps if the viewing distance was set at the SD rule-of-thumb of 7x diagonal measure these issues would go away, but at the HD multiple of 3x, I have always seen the pixel structure in plasma sets.

What is the resolution and diagonal measure of the Fuji you have?

My Fuji is has a native resolution of 1366 x 768 and is 50" diagonal in size. I can't stress enough that you won't see any pixel structure in this set unless you get several feet in front of it. I sit 8 ft away and see nothing but a stellar image. The only thing I see is the grain of the film from the transfer!

Granted, the cost of this set is high, $6500 retail.

PM me if you want more info

[CupOfJoe]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned in this (now long) thread -- I haven't read through the whole thing a couple weeks -- but I wanted to mention that I've now seen the corner dark patches in a *non-FlexView* (e.g., non-IPS) model (at a local retail outlet). It was, however, still a 15" screen.

Question: Has anyone seen these corner dark patches on a Thinkpad with a 14.1" screen?

-CupOfJoe

[dxben]

Never heard of it in a 14" screen. I will say I was at the apple store and the MBP did not see the problem. That doesn't mean anything though.

I ordered the 14" version of the TP though.

[ibm meister]

I am now on think pad # 4 trying to get one WITHOUT some kind of problem. First was the big fat Z60M with the bad networking issue, sent it back, next was the T60 with the horrendous 15" XGA WITH DARK DARK DARK bottom corners, sent back brcause of the dark corners and overall terrible screen quality. Then there came the T60 2623D6U with the great screen with NO DARK CORNERS but with dvd skipping issues that they could not figure out. I sent it back before finding the skipping answer through this forum. Why do these machines come with video issues that Lenovo knows nohing about>

I get the replacement D6U, same skiping dvd issue that I fix using the removal of the ATI Hotkey poller. But... IT HAS SLIGHTLY DARK CORNERS IN BOTH BOTTOM CORNERS.

The issue is consistency of QUALITY. I do not want to send this one back as I like the machine, but I resent the fact tha I spend this kind of money and have to deal with this stuff.

I still have 3 weeks to decide whether I am sending it back. I have it all set up the way I like it. AND... if I send it back, will I get another problem?

Lenovo needs to look at their quality control. I don't think they have any. That's the problem.

But, what else is there???

I appreciate your input.

[archer6]

Then there came the T60 2623D6U with the great screen with NO DARK CORNERS but with dvd skipping issues that they could not figure out. I sent it back before finding the skipping answer through this forum. Why do these machines come with video issues that Lenovo knows nohing about>

I have used ThinkPads over 10 years, and it has not been this way until lately. It's not that they know nothing about the issue, it's that they have some very new tech people answering the phones, and those are the ones that know very little. When I ask to have my case escalated, then I get someone on the phone with the proper skills.

The issue is consistency of QUALITY. I do not want to send this one back as I lithe machine, but I resent the fact tha I spend this kind of money and have to deal with this stuff.

While I certainly agree with you on this overall, I must remind myself that this is the first generation of the Core Duo & T60 series. It has been my experience that each time there is a major new model, there are some teething issues. I have also been very happy with the eventual resolutions.

I still have 3 weeks to decide whether I am sending it back. I have it all set up the way I like it. AND... if I send it back, will I get another problem? Lenovo needs to look at their quality control. I don't think they have any.

I concur with your thinking and wondering "will I get another problem", as it seems as though there are more issues with this new release than previously. I'm not sure it's as much quality control, (however I could be very wrong here) as it is the overall complexity of all the changes made with this new ThinkPad generation.

But, what else is there???

You have read my mind here. I'm constantly seaching for the answer and researching every brand that I am aware of. As recently as yesterday one of my office mates brought in his new Dell Precision Workstation Laptops in which he has $3800 invested! I used if for a short while and it has a terrible keyboard with flex and noisy keys, a porrly functioning touch pad, etc. Even he is quite dissapointed. So, despite my very long term use and belief in the ThinkPad brand, I have tried many other brands personally, and nothing comes close to a ThinkPad.

Archer

[pundit]

While I certainly agree with you on this overall, I must remind myself that this is the first generation of the Core Duo & T60 series. It has been my experience that each time there is a major new model, there are some teething issues. I have also been very happy with the eventual resolutions.

But it isn't the first generation of the LCDs.

I've been trying not to worry about it since I don't have the machine anymore, but I feel it's my perogative to moan considering that it now appears I've lost my money on this debacle.

[archer6]

While I certainly agree with you on this overall, I must remind myself that this is the first generation of the Core Duo & T60 series. It has been my experience that each time there is a major new model, there are some teething issues. I have also been very happy with the eventual resolutions.

But it isn't the first generation of the LCDs.

I've been trying not to worry about it since I don't have the machine anymore, but I feel it's my perogative to moan considering that it now appears I've lost my money on this debacle.

pundit,

I could not agree more. This particular new model debut has been very disappointing for me as well. I find that I vaciliate between being quite unhappy and then trying to step back and not let it get to me so much.
However here is a perfect example of how much I'm struggling. Do I return my T60 for a T60P! I have the order placed and an RMA for my T60, nevertheless I am stuck trying to decide, and agonizing over many issues related to this: Will I get a good one? Will I wait for weeks/months to received it? Will I receive the credit for my first purchase, in a timely fashion? Or will I have to undergo a great deal of negotiating to get them to perform? Will it (T60P) be better or worse than the T60 I have, which by the way is operating just fine now. Yet I really could use the additional graphics capabilities and faster hard drive of the P model.
There is no message here for you, as I completely respect your position on the various issues you have experienced. It's as though we mirror each other and I don't say that in a patronizing way. I'm so much like you it's amazing, we think so much alike and the very things that bother you, bother me a great deal. I admire your willingness to admit your personal experiences and how they have affected you. That said I'm still far from satisfied, but I simply do not know what to do. I have spent countless hours recently researching other laptops, speaking with owners of other brands etc. The alarming part, is I hang around with a lot of tech guys that rely on laptops professionally as their tool to conduct business, as I do.
I cannot express how much I would like to resolve these various issues, as I admit I'm obssesed about it, quite significantly if I'm being honest with myself.
It's good to hear from you, as I was thinking about you today wondering how it was going?
I just want to have a good experience so that I can enjoy my new laptop. I want a laptop that is not a compromise of great signficance, I want a laptop that simply meets my needs. Then be able to just get on with it.
Finally, I've lost (as I'm sure you have) countless hours of my time and energy over this fiasco. This experience stands out as the worst I've ever had when simply upgrading to a new ThinkPad as I do each year.
Besides the obvious (as above) I'm concerned and would appreciate hearing about the monetary loss you have experienced related to your situation. Are you still waiting for your refund? Have you found another computer to purchase? Please let me know where things stand for you.
Regards,
Archer

[pundit]

Besides the obvious (as above) I'm concerned and would appreciate hearing about the monetary loss you have experienced related to your situation. Are you still waiting for your refund? Have you found another computer to purchase? Please let me know where things stand for you.

For the record, I am a poor student but not so poor that I cannot afford another machine or few before I get the refund back. Still, I had made up my mind earlier to seriously go ahead on another machine only after I received my money back in full. As it stands, I have not, and thus haven't looked seriously at a replacement (apart from forking the 100$ to become an Apple student developer; getting a "free" (cheesy) tee shirt and a copy of OS X (for the G4/5, like that'll be tremendously useful)).

The deal with the refund is that Lenovo insists they carried it out. They've faxed me papers which they claim "show" they returned my 3 grand. However my account sees none of it. I am in the process of fetching as much info as I can from them, feeding it to the financial institutions concerned, and there is an "investigation" into the transaction.

Don't ask me what that all means, I don't really know. Other than the fact that mulling over it makes me feel like a beaten man and the urge to write it off as an "evil mistake" is very high. So I don't think about it, and let the "back-office people at the financial institutions" do whatever it is they do.

Incompetence runs rampant, I'm afraid.

[pundit]

And in all this time, I keep reading more into Intel's NGMA, and with all the talk about Merom coming in July/August (lies, I know), I am beginning to think that with with enough soldering and duct-tape, I ought to be able to keep my failing laptop booting until August.

[christopher_wolf]

And in all this time, I keep reading more into Intel's NGMA, and with all the talk about Merom coming in July/August (lies, I know), I am beginning to think that with with enough soldering and duct-tape, I ought to be able to keep my failing laptop booting until August.

Duct tape/Soldering Iron --- Use if something is moving which shouldn't be

WD-40 --- Use if something is stuck which shouldn't be

There, you are all set.

[archer6]

with the refund is that Lenovo insists they carried it out. They've faxed me papers which they claim "show" they returned my 3 grand. However my account sees none of it. Incompetence runs rampant, I'm afraid.

This is the precise reason I asked you about it, as I have had the exact same experience as I mentioned to you in an earlier post. The level of complacency is absolutely astounding. I researched the company and found the name of the CFO. Sent him a letter and presto, my money appeared in 24 hours, via FedEx. It's crazy that one should have to go to that extent but it was the only way I could get a result.

Archer

[archer6]

And in all this time, I keep reading more into Intel's NGMA, and with all the talk about Merom coming in July/August (lies, I know)

I have a bit of (reliable/high ranking employee provided) inside info on this Merom. His advice to me, give it a minimum of a year. They are working 24/7 to debug some problems that will affect all laptops. Once released to market his advice is wait 6 months and then it's good to go.

Archer

[donking!]

pundit,

Sorry about your problem getting the refund. I have a suggestion that might help, if you're interested.

I was once the victim of credit fraud, in which a number of credit accounts were fraudlently opened in my name. The companies that issued this credit wanted me to send them affidavits, attesting to the fact that I had not opened these accounts, in order to have the accounts cleared from my credit history.

Affidavits cost money and I didn't want to pay to clear my name, when I felt these companies had been very lax in issuing credit in my name (the perpetrator didn't have my correct middle name and other information was off, but they issued credit anyway).

Someone I knew at the time, who worked fairly high up at GE Capital, told me I should write the CEO of the credit issuing agencies, because those were the complaints that got taken seriously. Someone else I knew, who used to be a lawyer, said I needed to do something that would make the people at the companies see me as a potential asset.

If you want to follow this advice, I think what you should do is write to the CEO of Lenovo. Also CC the letter to the head of the department (returns?) that you're dealing with. Explain that through their own negligence, they have failed to credit you for your refund. This has not only caused you great expense, in not getting your refund, but also has caused you a loss of your time and undue stress (which from your posts is obviously true). Tell them that you expect them to immediately credit you (quote the amount), to your credit card and to cause you no further loss of time or stress.

The point is that you want the head of the department that you're dealing with to know that you're making waves with the CEO. They don't want people on high to think they're doing a bad job. They also don't want to think that you are going to cause them further problems in the future and further expenses (beyond giving you the refund you deserve), this is the seeing you as a potential asset part.

When I did this, all of the credit issuing agencies I was dealing with, immediately gave me what I wanted and did not ask for the signed affidavits, etc.

It's not a sure fire technique. But in many situations it has helped me. Also, when you do this your complaint often gets raised to a level where people directly in the CEO's office take care of the problem. They often have much more leeway to act.

You can probably find a corporate phone number for Lenovo, for their main switchboard, perhaps for their main North American office (if their is one), and get the CEO's phone number and address and any other addresses you need. It usually works better to get the information this way, than to call customer service. Since Lenovo is a Chinese company, I suppose you might want to write your letter to the head of the North American operations (again if there is such an office) and then CC it to the overall CEO of Lenovo, as well as to the head of the department you're actually dealing with.

Hope that helps or that your problem works out before you need to do anything like that.

donking!

[pundit]

I have a bit of (reliable/high ranking employee provided) inside info on this Merom. His advice to me, give it a minimum of a year. They are working 24/7 to debug some problems that will affect all laptops. Once released to market his advice is wait 6 months and then it's good to go.

It's not like I need to know some high-ranking employee to be aware of this. I'm just using it as the light at the end of the tunnel so I don't get too stressed about the current state of affairs. That is all.

My other line of thought is, "I could have gotten very acquainted with whatever I chose to replace it with by now and gotten on with my life."

See why I invent the Merom thought?

[pundit]

The level of complacency is absolutely astounding. I researched the company and found the name of the CFO. Sent him a letter and presto, my money appeared in 24 hours, via FedEx. It's crazy that one should have to go to that extent but it was the only way I could get a result

If you want to follow this advice, I think what you should do is write to the CEO of Lenovo. Also CC the letter to the head of the department (returns?) that you're dealing with. Explain that through their own negligence, they have failed to credit you for your refund. This has not only caused you great expense, in not getting your refund, but also has caused you a loss of your time and undue stress (which from your posts is obviously true). Tell them that you expect them to immediately credit you (quote the amount), to your credit card and to cause you no further loss of time or stress.

Thanks, you two.

I am thinking of doing something very similar. Except, from what little law advice I've gotten, I've heard that judges love documentation. So, being the geek I am, I am slowly-but-surely gathering as much detail as I can and piecing it all together---primarily for me clarify who it is that was incompetent. Then goes out the strongly-worded letter. Failing which enter the lawers---who, I have learnt, are paid for as part of my university fees, and hence not a financial burden on my part. This is also to give me the ability to use words like "judge" and "investigation" and so on in said correspondence.

It's just, I keep feeling I am a kid and ought not to be subject to this sort of thing. It scares me as matters outside a narrow technical realm are all alien to me.

[archer6]

pundit,
Someone else I knew, who used to be a lawyer, said I needed to do something that would make the people at the companies see me as a potential asset.
donking!

The strategy of "potential asset" is brilliant.

I've heard that judges love documentation. So, being the geek I am, I am slowly-but-surely gathering as much detail as I can and piecing it all together---primarily for me clarify who it is that was incompetent.

Documentation is everything! This is from personal experience as I have represented various mfgs, clients, my own corp. etc in court. Howevery the (my) objective is to get results without going to court, letting the meter run with the attorneys etc.

Then goes out the strongly-worded letter. Failing which enter the lawers---who, I have learnt, are paid for as part of my university fees, and hence not a financial burden on my part. This is also to give me the ability to use words like "judge" and "investigation" and so on in said correspondence.

Just a suggestion for your consideration, my approach has always been kill them with kindness. Put the packet together which contains all the information, and send that to Lenovo USA.
Believe me they will get the (unstated) message that if they let this slide you are probably going to take legal action. The chances of this being the final step and avoiding court are quite good. Especially if you incorporate donkings "potential asset" strategy.
The only time I have had to go to court is when the other party is so unreasonable that I cannot negotiate to resolution with them.

Archer

[pundit]

Just a suggestion for your consideration, my approach has always been kill them with kindness. Put the packet together which contains all the information, and send that to Lenovo USA.
Believe me they will get the (unstated) message that if they let this slide you are probably going to take legal action. The chances of this being the final step and avoiding court are quite good. Especially if you incorporate donkings "potential asset" strategy.
The only time I have had to go to court is when the other party is so unreasonable that I cannot negotiate to resolution with them.

Again, I don't plan to get remotely violent, or even just not-nice. I just need the necessary information-ammo to make a rational case and hint that I am not planning on taking this lying down.

Just because I'm otherwise non-confrontational doesn't mean I will happily put up with whatever ineptitude that's shoved my way. My personal purchase might be trivial to them, but people approach geeks like me everyday for help with purchasing decisions and value my input. I am sure they would eventually begin to miss entire labs not ordering their products because I was vocal in steering the decision maker away.

And (the avoidance of) that, (or potentially steering people toward them because of how pleasantly I felt they handled my issue) is my "potential asset" plan. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that was a part of the articulation of my case.

[archer6]

Again, I don't plan to get remotely violent, or even just not-nice. I just need the necessary information-ammo to make a rational case and hint that I am not planning on taking this lying down.

Sounds like you have a good plan in mind. What is the timeline at this point? Putting myself in your position, it will be a relief to resolve this and all the negative energy around it. Then, you're in a clear field of choices, etc.

Archer

[pundit]

Sounds like you have a good plan in mind. What is the timeline at this point? Putting myself in your position, it will be a relief to resolve this and all the negative energy around it. Then, you're in a clear field of choices, etc.

Week 1--2 (Starting tomorrow): I let the financial institution conduct their investigation into the transaction. Furnishing them additional information if they require it.
Week 2--3: I send out the letter to the higher-ups at (both) the financial institution and/or Lenovo indicating incompetence at lower levels complete with same information.
Week 4: Get in touch with lawyers and such to see how to proceed if all else fails. Wii! [1]

[1] Trademarked(?) 2006(?), Nintendo(R).

[donking!]

I think documenting everything carefully is really important. So it's good you're doing that. I also agree with archer6, that the point of writing letters, contacting higher ups, etc., is to avoid having to actually use lawyers and go to court.

If you send the letters to higher ups, it's good to include a very detailed explanation of everything you've done. Who you talked to, on what dates, what they said. (I was advised with my credit fraud thing to keep notes of everyone I talked to when, about what, etc.). This shows them that you have the paper work and can demonstrate that they are responsible. I.e. that you have a good case. That's part of convincing them that they're better off solving your problem than blowing you off.

I don't think that the fact that you might or might not refer customers to them plays too much into the potential asset idea. Of course, it's true that you may cause them to lose customers. But I think they know that and have already demonstrated that they don't care/don't really believe it is a problem.

The sort of potential asset that you want to be is the sort that's going to directly cost them money out of their pocket. By solving your problem they save themselves future costs and that's their asset.

I'd guess that what's going through their minds right now is something like:

I'm someone who works in returns. I can see the paper work that says we refunded you. So I don't believe that you did not get the money or that it will not soon show up in your account. I am a peon and am not going to take responsibility for crediting you again. I also believe that you probably are trying to scam us and get another refund. If I blow you off, it it less likely to create problems for me in the future than if I do anything out of the ordinary. (This no doubt works for them more often than not.)

So you have to get over the hurdle of them seeing you as just a pest. When you write to the higher ups you accomplish two things. Now I have the CEO's office calling me saying "Why can't you people solve your own problems?" So now I have a bigger problem than a pest. I'm on my superiors radar in a bad way. At the same time, the CEO's office is thinking: Okay this person went to a lot of trouble to write to us, they have documents and are prepared to go to court (you imply this, you don't have to say it directly), not only might they seek damages against us, but more immediately we are going to be paying our corporate lawyers $300/hour to deal with this. We're better off financially figuring out the problem and fixing it.

I think that's ultimately the real asset. They don't want to have to pay the corporate lawyers if it's not necessary. Even if they win the case, they might spend just as much money defending themselves as the amount of the refund.

Anyway, sorry again that you're having to deal with this. Believe me, I know what a pain it can be. It took me 6 months to resolve my credit fraud problems. Fortunately, your situation seems quite a bit simpler. Good luck and keep us updated.

[pundit]

And I don't see how it is possible they can "win the case" if it gets down to it because I clearly have statements showing a 3 grand that left to them, an invoice from them that claims they've returned it (as in there was no problem with the return itself, they've agreed to return the money), and the same statement showing NO 3 grand now. It's really not that hard me to authorize the financial institution to share the fact that there was no influx of 3 grand from them recently, or in the appropriate time-frame they claim.

And more importantly, shouldn't the system work in such a way that it only decreases their account by the sum when mine is credited with the same? If not, then there are some serious issues here. I mean, if as far as they've concerned, they've already "lost" the money, then they'll be paying out of their pocket again at the end of it all.

Unless of course, $300/hr lawyers know something I don't. And at $300/hr, I should just quit and join law school. With my current lifestyle, I'd only need work 3--4 hours a month!

[pundit]

I'm someone who works in returns. I can see the paper work that says we refunded you. So I don't believe that you did not get the money or that it will not soon show up in your account. I am a peon and am not going to take responsibility for crediting you again. I also believe that you probably are trying to scam us and get another refund. If I blow you off, it it less likely to create problems for me in the future than if I do anything out of the ordinary. (This no doubt works for them more often than not.)

(I just had to add.)

This was the phase I was in for the first couple of weeks. Where I would get a standard: "It's happened sir, it will show up eventually, have a good day." But the funny part was, the jokers were giving me conflicting dates. Only one person indicated that the actual deed was done a while ago and it ought to have happened by now, all the rest were more along the lines of "eventually."

Until one day, after I guess I'd cycled through all possible reps twice, they pointed me to the person who was responsible for the actual sale and return of my particular computer. And then I started getting more information regarding specifics, and proof of said specifics.

[donking!]

Yeah, I'm sure in the end more time and energy is spent on bureaucratic incompetence, than the couple minutes it will actually take the person who actually solves the problem. I know that sort of aggravation very well.

I'm sure you'd win in court too. I just think going to court will likely be even more of a pain than what you're going through now and so it's worth strategizing to try to avoid that.

[darrenf]

I'm coming to this conversation without having read all the suggestions about paper trails and legal proceedings, but it seems to me that this is a matter to take up with the credit card company, not lawyers. My CC company has credited me back for every dispute claim I've ever made. I've worked for retailers and they never win, even when they are in the right. If Lenovo sent you something showing that the credit should have gone through, submit that with the dispute claim and let the CC company battle with Lenovo over it. That's the main reason to use a credit card for this kind of purchase in the first place.

-darren

[pundit]

I'm sure you'd win in court too. I just think going to court will likely be even more of a pain than what you're going through now and so it's worth strategizing to try to avoid that.

It's not like I want to go to court or anything like that. I am just making sure I jot stuff down and keep copies of everything under the eventuality that I have to.

On the most basic level, I just want to get my money back, buy some random machine and move on with things.

[pundit]

I'm coming to this conversation without having read all the suggestions about paper trails and legal proceedings, but it seems to me that this is a matter to take up with the credit card company, not lawyers. My CC company has credited me back for every dispute claim I've ever made. I've worked for retailers and they never win, even when they are in the right. If Lenovo sent you something showing that the credit should have gone through, submit that with the dispute claim and let the CC company battle with Lenovo over it. That's the main reason to use a credit card for this kind of purchase in the first place.

I am not taking it up with lawyers; just with the financial institution at the moment. I've sent them the necessary dispute-a-transaction forms, and all the information I could garner from Lenovo (including the invoice that shows they owe me the 3 grand as a refund) supporting their end of the story as well. I then gave the person I'm in touch with at the financial institution the contact information of the people responsible for my computer's purchase/return at Lenovo, and they are currently sorting it out.

I have been asked to be patient for 10 more days for this process.

And I am curious since you say you've worked for retailers. Just what is involved a refund? Some guy punching a numbers, like a kid behind the counter at a store? Even if there is an obvious scope for a mistake, isn't it a trivial matter to see if the transaction actually took place or not?

[darrenf]

I've put in computers for retailers but haven't paid close attention to the actual transaction process. There do exist good records, even in shops with one CC machine and I'm sure that Lenovo's system is more advanced than the ones I've seen.

Let the CC company work it out for you and don't worry -- you won't owe a thing.

-darren