Thinkpads Forum

(Mods, please don't move this thread to the pictures forum as this isn't about the whole laptop or a setup, but the images only augment the discussion of an issue.)

So here's the deal. I finally got my T60p back from ezserve, and they claim they cannot reproduce the problem. I would have been a bit happier if they said, yes, "We see why you might have a problem with it, but our manufacturing process/technology doesn't allow us to correct this sort of issue".

Instead, after quite a few phone calls, all I got to hear is how they aren't seeing what I claim to see. Am I imagining things? It is going back either way, but after listening to them go on about how it doesn't exist, I am beginning to think I'm going mildly senile.

Here it is when it is barely noticeable, with a bright screen and a suitably selected viewing angle.

http://emphaticallystatic.org/blogimage ... ample1.jpg

And the following two get worse as the brightness/angle is changed subtly.

http://emphaticallystatic.org/blogimage ... ample2.jpg

http://emphaticallystatic.org/blogimage ... ample3.jpg

I have not shown the worst possible scenario because it was difficult for me to position my tripod-head where my head would be when I stare at the screen---which ironically enough is when it is most noticeable.

I don't mind if you think of me as nitpickey. What I do mind is if there is some issue with my eyes, or something.

(ADMIN Edit: Links please, not embedded photos!)

Yeah, I see it - barely noticeable, but its there.

pundit wrote:I don't mind if you think of me as nitpickey. What I do mind is if there is some issue with my eyes, or something.

I see it.

Shame on Lenovo for not acknowlegding that even a slight brightness variation exists in a portion of the LCD panel. *Hmmmmph*

And it duplicates the condition I have on my (now evaluating -- soon to be returned T43p) machine. The only difference is that the dark shadow appears in the lower right corner.

Also, I'll boldly make the assumption that this dark splotch doesn't show up in pictures as well as it does in person (being it somewhat difficult to take real-life quality pictures of an LCD screen).

You ain't a nitpicker -- at least in my book.

-CupOfJoe

P.S. I'll see if I can put up some links to a few pictures of the similar condition which exists on my soon-to-be-returned unit later on...

CupOfJoe wrote:P.S. I'll see if I can put up some links to a few pictures of the similar condition which exists on my soon-to-be-returned unit later on...

I found it quite difficult to take a good picture which represents the condition accurately. So here's the best I could do...

http://www.geocities.com/tp_t60p/T43p-LCD-Flaw1.jpg

Call me a nitpicker, but this is hard for me to ignore.

-CupOfJoe

PS - I realize this is the T6x forum, and I'm posting a picture of a problem related to a T4x machine. But this picture is being posted basically to validate pundit's problem -- which he is having with his T6x machine.

pundit wrote:So here's the deal. I finally got my T60p back from ezserve, and they claim they cannot reproduce the problem. I would have been a bit happier if they said, yes, "We see why you might have a problem with it, but our manufacturing process/technology doesn't allow us to correct this sort of issue".

Instead, after quite a few phone calls, all I got to hear is how they aren't seeing what I claim to see. Am I imagining things?

I don't mind if you think of me as nitpickey. What I do mind is if there is some issue with my eyes, or something.

1) I see it.
2) I have the (exact) same thing on my T60 now that I look closely. Mine does not seem to be as noticeable as yours. It's in the same location as yours.
3) This and the other problems, or inconsistencies I'm reading about here cause me to hesitate on ordering a T60P. One places the order, waits, plans, then recieves a unit which is not up to par. A great deal of additional time is wasted in dealing with the complications presented by a faulty ThinkPad.
4) Finally, NO you are NOT PICKY! I feel the same way. We have paid handsomely for a premium product that should be delivered without these difficulties.
Please let me know how you plan to resolve this.

but I can say that I've not seen many displays this size without some vestige of this corner effect.

On mine it is virtually invisible due to the theme that I'm running and the tonal shifts that it uses. the lower left is masked by the taskbar/start button.

Are you sure that it's not just excessive pressure on the screen in the corners? Can you lightly manipulate the bezel to see if it changes or shifts?

Whether or not Lenovo acknowledge it as a design limitation is one thing.

Whether or not YOU acknowledge it as a design limitation is another.

If it is (and it would appear to be, given that it has occurred in many generations of 15" IPS), then it is possible that you will never find a notebook LCD screen which does not exhibit this problem (without forgoing some other aspect of the beautiful Thinkpad design, like size) -- then what will you do?

Actually, I have this on my T21.

My understanding is that generally these are pressure points on the LCD, from the bezel/display casing being over tightened.

Also, they can also be caused by inproper lighting from the CCFL.

My opinion is that if it bothers you, then they should replace/repair it. If I spent the money that I am sure that you did for this system, I would want it to be in perfect working order....no exceptions.

archer6 wrote:3) This and the other problems, or inconsistencies I'm reading about here cause me to hesitate on ordering a T60P.

Speculation: I'm not so sure if it is a problem with the "p" models (i.e., T60p) per se, as it is with models that have the FlexView screen.

The T60p I've ordered is a non-FlexView model (w/a 14" screen). Once it arrives, I'll report back to the board if it suffers from this engineering artifact.

-CupOfJoe

CupOfJoe wrote:Shame on Lenovo for not acknowlegding that even a slight brightness variation exists in a portion of the LCD panel. *Hmmmmph*

Exactly. This was the only thing I was looking for. I just wanted them to say, "OK, we see it, but we don't know what to do". But I must say they were very nice on the return process (So far; I'll know how smooth all of it went when I get back my few grand). I shipped it within a couple of hours (decided to do them a favour and remaster the hard drive) of receiving it myself from tech support.

CupOfJoe wrote:Also, I'll boldly make the assumption that this dark splotch doesn't show up in pictures as well as it does in person (being it somewhat difficult to take real-life quality pictures of an LCD screen).

Bingo! It's more prominent in real life, and I tried with a few cameras; none of which represented actuality accurately.

CupOfJoe wrote: I found it quite difficult to take a good picture which represents the condition accurately. So here's the best I could do...

http://www.geocities.com/tp_t60p/T43p-LCD-Flaw1.jpg

Call me a nitpicker, but this is hard for me to ignore.

I won't; it's not nitpicking. It a. clearly present, and b. it stares at you right in the face every single time you sit down to use the machine.

It is hard to take a representative picture, but yours does give others who're wondering what's going on a good idea. I have a similar problem on the right bottom corner as well, but I shot just one to give people an idea.

Oddly enough (for the few, "that is how it will be" people out in the audience), the top corners are both perfect).

archer6 wrote:2) I have the (exact) same thing on my T60 now that I look closely. Mine does not seem to be as noticeable as yours. It's in the same location as yours.

The actual intensity of the problem, at least on my machine varies greatly with your viewing angle and brightness. If you are lucky, your natural work position will be bearable. (Actually, when I remastered the drive back to factory-fresh state, the green gradient on the default Windows XP start button naturally fades away there, and I couldn't see the problem, even on my own computer! Replacing a plain, light background instead of the default and hiding the task bar brought it back, though).

archer6 wrote:3) This and the other problems, or inconsistencies I'm reading about here cause me to hesitate on ordering a T60P. One places the order, waits, plans, then recieves a unit which is not up to par. A great deal of additional time is wasted in dealing with the complications presented by a faulty ThinkPad.
4) Finally, NO you are NOT PICKY! I feel the same way. We have paid handsomely for a premium product that should be delivered without these difficulties.
Please let me know how you plan to resolve this.

I "had" the machine for something like 10 days. 2--3 with me, and the rest with tech support trying to convince them I have an issue. Today afternoon, I received it back with nothing changed or fixed, and later in the afternoon I shipped the machine back for good.

So that's how I resolved it. I am not saying I wan't a perfect notebook, I am saying I want something on which I can't blatantly see the flaws on.

Scratch wrote:Are you sure that it's not just excessive pressure on the screen in the corners? Can you lightly manipulate the bezel to see if it changes or shifts?

That was my first guess and what I proceeded to try. The thing is built like a tank with no flex, and nothing budges---hence nothing changes.

astro wrote:Whether or not Lenovo acknowledge it as a design limitation is one thing.

Whether or not YOU acknowledge it as a design limitation is another.

If it is (and it would appear to be, given that it has occurred in many generations of 15" IPS), then it is possible that you will never find a notebook LCD screen which does not exhibit this problem (without forgoing some other aspect of the beautiful Thinkpad design, like size) -- then what will you do?

I'll go in for a 14" non IPS screen, or (gasp) a different brand. I haven't seen this sort of thing on any other computer I've worked with.

tfflivemb2 wrote:My opinion is that if it bothers you, then they should replace/repair it. If I spent the money that I am sure that you did for this system, I would want it to be in perfect working order....no exceptions.

That was how I was looking at this. The least they ought to have done was admitted they could see a variation in intensity. If they'd then proceeded to explain why it is not possible to correct, then I might have listened.

I assume, based on what you typed above, that you are still within the 30 day window. You can always return it and order another one. Though, you might get stuck with the extra shipping fees for the first one.

tfflivemb2 wrote:I assume, based on what you typed above, that you are still within the 30 day window. You can always return it and order another one. Though, you might get stuck with the extra shipping fees for the first one.

I just returned it. There was no shipping fees or restocking fees involved, and they (I think) felt kinda bad that in my few days of "owning it", a bulk of its presence was at their repair center.

And oddly enough, no point in this has been vexing in the least. Just vaguely disappointing.

I didn't order another one instantly because a. I would rather wait until I get my 3 grand back and b. I didn't realise I could, (as in reuse the money on another of the same machine while this was being shipped back).

But this puts me back to the agonizing phase (like the most of the beginning of the year) where I look into different computers, pick one, pay, then wait, wait, wait...

Hopefully, there won't be a "wait, wait, wait" this time around, since they are already being sent out, and in some cases within days of ordering.

The pressure points behind the lcd where the shadows are is a result of pushing it into a thinkpad dock. I got this just after using a dock on both my t40p and t41.

waddawocky wrote:The pressure points behind the lcd where the shadows are is a result of pushing it into a thinkpad dock. I got this just after using a dock on both my t40p and t41.

I don't have a dock.

Yes, it's present on all Flexview screens. ON ALL OF THEM. IT WON'T BE RESOLVED, so either deal with it or avoid the screen.

On mine I can clearly see a darker patch at both lower corners of the taskbar. Only visible on uniform bright backgrounds (which normally means - only in the taskbar) and doesn't exceed the taskbar.

To return a laptop because of that is to be legally insane. Those pics pundit showed don't seem worse than mine and should not bother anyone, unless he has some unhealth obsession of staring at the corners of his screen. The one by CupOfJoe doesn't seem too bad either.

I HAVE seen some pics where it was much worse (i.e. stretched across a big part of one of the sides). Then they might replace it.

dr_st wrote:Yes, it's present on all Flexview screens. ON ALL OF THEM. IT WON'T BE RESOLVED, so either deal with it or avoid the screen.

On mine I can clearly see a darker patch at both lower corners of the taskbar. Only visible on uniform bright backgrounds (which normally means - only in the taskbar) and doesn't exceed the taskbar.

To return a laptop because of that is to be legally insane. Those pics pundit showed don't seem worse than mine and should not bother anyone, unless he has some unhealth obsession of staring at the corners of his screen. The one by CupOfJoe doesn't seem too bad either.

I HAVE seen some pics where it was much worse (i.e. stretched across a big part of one of the sides). Then they might replace it.

3 grand is a lot of cash for a laptop. LCDs on this 3 grand T60p should not be sold with this flaw. It does not matter if it is present on all of them or not, i do not remember a statement from Lenovo claiming that all of their flexview screens will have color variations on the bottom corners. It might be very bothersome for him so just let him be

dr_st wrote:Yes, it's present on all Flexview screens. ON ALL OF THEM. IT WON'T BE RESOLVED, so either deal with it or avoid the screen.

On mine I can clearly see a darker patch at both lower corners of the taskbar. Only visible on uniform bright backgrounds (which normally means - only in the taskbar) and doesn't exceed the taskbar.

To return a laptop because of that is to be legally insane. Those pics pundit showed don't seem worse than mine and should not bother anyone, unless he has some unhealth obsession of staring at the corners of his screen. The one by CupOfJoe doesn't seem too bad either.

I HAVE seen some pics where it was much worse (i.e. stretched across a big part of one of the sides). Then they might replace it.

Then I'm just legally insane, or obsessed with the corners of my screen, or both.

My solution is to avoid the screen.

kashton wrote:It does not matter if it is present on all of them or not, i do not remember a statement from Lenovo claiming that all of their flexview screens will have color variations on the bottom corners. It might be very bothersome for him so just let him be

It is, and thank you.

And such an admission of the existence of a variation was part of what I was looking for. If they said, "Yes, we see it, but it's not a flaw on your particular machine, that is just how it is", then I might have "dealt with it".

Instead, I was told that they don't even see any difference. That did bother me.

I remember my Thinkpad A20p had exactly the same problem. It was my first laptop and I knew nothing about LCD displays. To tell the truth it bothered me but I didn't buy it through IBM, I purchased it from buy.com so I didn't bother to try and have the display replaced. I don't remember if I received it like that, I think it happened after having it a while. I personally would not keep it if I had the choice to return it.

dr_st wrote:Yes, it's present on all Flexview screens. ON ALL OF THEM. IT WON'T BE RESOLVED, so either deal with it or avoid the screen.

On mine I can clearly see a darker patch at both lower corners of the taskbar. Only visible on uniform bright backgrounds (which normally means - only in the taskbar) and doesn't exceed the taskbar.

To return a laptop because of that is to be legally insane. Those pics pundit showed don't seem worse than mine and should not bother anyone, unless he has some unhealth obsession of staring at the corners of his screen. The one by CupOfJoe doesn't seem too bad either.

I HAVE seen some pics where it was much worse (i.e. stretched across a big part of one of the sides). Then they might replace it.

I as well have this on my T43, Flexview screen.

I don't have this on my 14" T60.

Ponch wrote:I don't have this on my 14" T60.

That is the conclusion I have reached from my limited experience and scouring the T4x forum. I have worked with a 14" T43p and I didn't see it there either. It seems to be a common enough part of the 15" FlexView.

I have those on my screen, also on my old Dell. You can really see them if you download a copy of dead pixel buddy and run the white screen. They appear to be compression points or stress points within the screen manufacture.

kashton wrote:3 grand is a lot of cash for a laptop. LCDs on this 3 grand T60p should not be sold with this flaw. It does not matter if it is present on all of them or not, i do not remember a statement from Lenovo claiming that all of their flexview screens will have color variations on the bottom corners. It might be very bothersome for him so just let him be

I agree with the fact that a person has the right to be bothered by it. After all, how often do we end up rejecting great things due to small issues that we personally can't live with? I'm trying to put things into proportion.

I don't agree with your logic that this is unacceptable because the laptop is expensive. Lenovo also didn't come out with an official statement that the laptop will flex if you press down above the PCMCIA slot, but it does. It does, due to the manufacturing process. So is this unacceptable because the laptop costs $3K? Some might believe that for $3K you should get a laptop made out of bulletproof stainless steel. So is Lenovo at fault because they don't make them?

Bottom line is that the 15" screen is far superior to the 14" screen. In fact the 14" screens are really dull, and anyone with eyes, who have used both, will notice it immediately and it will be much more bothersome than tiny dark patches in the corners. By the above logic I could claim that the 14" screens have no place on something as expensive as a T60p.

pundit, I hope that your offense at the lack of admission from the Lenovo techs isn't the thing that ultimately causes you to return this thing. Indeed, if it really bothers you, do return it - we shouldn't be forced to put up with something that bothers us on an expensive investment such as this. I just hope that you won't regret it when you see the 14" screen.