Thinkpads Forum

Many of you may remember me as the guy that asked
the question, Why should I spend $600 more for a Lenovo?

I was originally looking at HP's flagship dv1000t T2500
dual-core laptop that comes loaded with memory and features.

I was convinced by many of you here that the Lenovo T60
would be a satisfying purchase and well worth the extra
amount of money. I took the gamble and ordered myself
the 2623D7U model.

Now, as we all know, to get yourself in the royalty class
of owning an IBM thinkpad, you have to shell out some mucho
bucks from the getgo. Then, if you are a power-user like
myself, you need to spend even hundreds more to bring the
laptop up to respectful specs.

In my case, the base price plus bringing the computer up
to 1.5 gigs memory put me in the $2300-$2400 range. Next
I needed to upgrade the ram to 2 gigs (had to purchase a
extra 1 gig stick) which set me back an added $200. Finally,
since I have dealt with slow laptop drives, I upgraded from
a 5400rpm to a 7200rpm drive. That set me back an additional
$400.

So, when all is said and done, I shelled out about $3K for
what I hoped would be the "computer of my dreams."

Though Lenovo a 4-week date of delivery, my Lenovo
arrived in less than 2 weeks after I ordered it. As per
the the special offer, the laptop was shipped for FREE
via UPS EXPRESS. It took 1-2 days to arrive after it
left the Hong Kong plant.

Despite some concerns expressed by others in this
forum, it took me under 15 minutes to install the memory
and switch out the hard drive. Removing and replacing
the palmrest gave me no difficulties whatsoever.

I have owned 3 previous laptops prior to owning a Lenovo.
These include a Dell, Sony Vaio and a Toshiba satellite.
The Toshiba satellite was simply monstrous with its 17"
screen and weight of 10lbs. Using it on an airplane or for
business purposes were simply impossible.

I must say that I am impressed with the T60 for its build
quality. This laptop is built like a tank! It's also extremely
light, coming in at under 6lbs. I was concerned that I would
not like the 14" screen since it wasn't the glossy WXGA display
that I was used to seeing on other computers. Surprisingly,
the display is quite good and I am already enjoying the view.

The problems I have with the Lenovo concerns the lack of
software and system unstability.

First of all, when I spend over $2K for a laptop computer
I would expect the company -- especially Lenovo -- to
include a copy of Windows XP on a CD. They may tout the
benefits of users making their own recovery discs,
but I warn people not to get fooled by such rhetoric.

Recovery discs are NOT fun. First, it takes forever to
make the backup discs. It takes up to 6CDs to complete
an entire backup, and the process takes about 8 minutes
per disc. Then, when RESTORING your system, it takes
a minimum of 2 hours to complete the process. I should
know -- I upgraded from a 5200rpm to 7200rpm drive and
I was cursing the entire process. A simple Windows XP or
rescue CD would have cut down the entire process in half.

The next problem I had was connecting to my wireless
router. I have a very powerful router that broadcasts
throughout my home. For the past year I have shared that
Internet access with 2 other laptops in my home. Never
a problem. The day I brought the Lenovo in my home it
not only wouldn't keep a steady connection, but it knocked
my two other wireless laptops off the network. There seems
to be some sort of conflict with the wireless card in my Lenovo
and my router. I am now forced to buy a new router.

The laptop also has an embedded EVDO connection
device that you can use with Verizon's National Broadband
EVDO access. I was very excited about this since I was
already a customer. On my Toshiba laptop I simply used
an external PC air card to receive the Verizon service.

Imagine my dismay when I heard that only NEW subscribers
could take advantage of the embedded EVDO feature of the
Lenovo. If you buy one of these laptops as a current Verizon
subscriber, you will be forced to use an external PC air card
or pay an added fee to sign up for the internal feature that
comes with the Lenovo unit.

There also seems to be some minor stability problems. I
bought a Logitech mini webcam designed for notebooks so
my business partner and I could videoconference. Upon
installation, the Lenovo went into multiple blue-screen memory
dumps that would not cease until I uninstalled the software.
I was finally able to get the videocam working, but whenever
I use it, the system goes into memory dump upon windows
shutdown. It seems unbelievable to me that with 2 Gigs of
ram installed in this system that I would have memory problems
like this.

Despite the problems I am having, I am still considering keeping
this laptop mainly for the fact that I really enjoy the build
quality and the fact that this is the best keyboard I have ever
used. I feel very confident that the T60 will survive many years
of travel and heavy usage -- something I don't see in many of
the consumer-orientated models I have bought in the past.

Still, it really irks me that for the price paid, there is no
Windows XP disc included, the wireless connection is far weaker
than older notebooks I have owned, and its embedded EVDO
feature is useless to anyone who already subscribes to the
Verizon service.

NJRonbo wrote:Recovery discs are NOT fun. First, it takes forever to
make the backup discs. It takes up to 6CDs to complete
an entire backup, and the process takes about 8 minutes
per disc. Then, when RESTORING your system, it takes
a minimum of 2 hours to complete the process.

While I agree with most of what you've said, and was also annoyed by the lack of OS restore discs, using a DVD instead of 6 CDs reduced my recovery time to about 45 minutes. (Just FYI.)

And I should know, I just completed the procedure before returning the computer.

Agree that it's a little irritating that the laptop does not come with an XP cd. That being said, you can create your own XP install CD (1 CD, 0 DVDs) using a guide posted in the forums here. Creating the recovery set, as you noted, takes several CDs. My wireless card has been working fine thus far . . .
I saw your earlier post on the wireless issue, but you can probably troubleshoot that problem if you have the time/inclination. I know it's a PITA, but wireless networking, and networking in general, (even in 2006) is still not a fool-proof process - go ask the folks on the D-Link and Linksys forums. Sometimes equipment works seamlessly and sometimes it doesn't; sometimes it works and then stops working, even though nothing changed on the network. I think we're still a few years away from truly PNP wireless networking.

Why didn't you just buy a system with a 7200rpm drive? Buying an add-on 7200rpm drive from Lenovo and taking the 5400rpm drive out to use as an external drive is a pretty expensive way to get a USB drive.

serpico,

The decision to buy a 7200 drive was an afterthought a few
days after I bought my T60 model. It wound up being an
expensive choice but well worth it. This is my first 7200rpm
laptop and I can notice the speed difference.

I also understand what you are saying about the wireless
issues -- but why the Lenovo? All my other laptops worked
fine under my network but as soon as I brought the Lenovo
home my grief began. While it is hard to put the blame
exclusively upon Lenovo, it just makes we wonder what
brand of networking hardware part was placed in that T60
that makes it different from other computers.

...and thanks for the heads up on using a restore DVD. The
option was never mentioned in the manual nor by the IBM
representative that was assisting me the first time I made the
discs. If anyone readily has a link to the instructions it would
be appreciated.

Nice to be here amongst all of you!

It seems that most of your issues are with hardware compatibility.

Don't forget that you have bought something at the cutting edge of mobile computing. The Intel Centrino Duo platform with the Intel 3945 wireless chipset was officially unveiled only three months ago. The public started receiving machines with this chipset only three weeks ago. You can't expect the manufacturers to have worked out every bug with every possible hardware configuration ahead of time. Indeed, the multitude of hardware compatibility issues is the bane of the PC platform and will forever be.

NJRonbo wrote:
...and thanks for the heads up on using a restore DVD. The
option was never mentioned in the manual nor by the IBM
representative that was assisting me the first time I made the
discs. If anyone readily has a link to the instructions it would
be appreciated.

Here are the instructions: just put a first CD in the drive and label it "Rescue and Recovery startup Disk" and then insert a dvd and label it "Product Recovery Disk". Wen you don´t have anymore the option to create restore disks, you must restore your system to the factory state before this option appears again.

Hi Pundit,

Why are you returning your t60p? I'm just about to order one - so I'm very curious.


Thanks

Rex

pundit wrote:

NJRonbo wrote:Recovery discs are NOT fun. First, it takes forever to
make the backup discs. It takes up to 6CDs to complete
an entire backup, and the process takes about 8 minutes
per disc. Then, when RESTORING your system, it takes
a minimum of 2 hours to complete the process.

While I agree with most of what you've said, and was also annoyed by the lack of OS restore discs, using a DVD instead of 6 CDs reduced my recovery time to about 45 minutes. (Just FYI.)

And I should know, I just completed the procedure before returning the computer.

Teerex wrote:Why are you returning your t60p? I'm just about to order one - so I'm very curious.

My screen (15", FlexView) is slightly darker on the bottom left and right corners. It is (apparently) a known and accepted issue, and is nothing major (apparently). There are many people who live happily with this, but I personally find it distracting.

Just a note for others, you can get an extra 1Gb of RAM from third party vendors for $100-$160. And you can get a 100Gb 7200rpm Hitachi or Seagate drive for around $200. Check Froogle, PriceGrabber, etc.

NJRonbo wrote:...
The laptop also has an embedded EVDO connection
device that you can use with Verizon's National Broadband
EVDO access.
...
Imagine my dismay when I heard that only NEW subscribers
could take advantage of the embedded EVDO feature of the
Lenovo. If you buy one of these laptops as a current Verizon
subscriber, you will be forced to use an external PC air card
or pay an added fee to sign up for the internal feature that
comes with the Lenovo unit.
...

1. Hmm... above seems to be a problem with Verizon's attitude, not Lenovo...

2. I did a very similar strategy as you did with my T42s (2373-K5H):
==>Upgrade to total 1 GB RAM (from 512 MB).
==>Upgrade to 7200 RPM hard drive

Compared to a real T42p, I still saved enough money to buy myself a Port Replicator II.

Think of this as a poor man's P-series Thinkpad.

w0qj wrote:1. Hmm... above seems to be a problem with Verizon's attitude, not Lenovo...

That's sort of fair, I think. It's definitely highly lame of Verizon and they should fix the problem.

But Lenovo is using this functionality of the notebook to market the T60. It's featured on the web site. And in the tabook the functionality is called simply "Verizon." So Lenovo is implicity making promises about the notebook working with Verizon. And it seems pretty natural to assume that it would work with existing accounts. Frankly, why wouldn't you assume that? So Lenovo, to me, seems complicit in leading people astray.

What if, after all, the modem required one to get new phone service from a different company to work? Or the ethernet connection required one to sign up with Earthlink? Would we accept that Lenovo had no responsibility for informing us of that before purchasing a notebook from them?

donking! wrote:That's sort of fair, I think. It's definitely highly lame of Verizon and they should fix the problem.

But Lenovo is using this functionality of the notebook to market the T60. It's featured on the web site. And in the tabook the functionality is called simply "Verizon." So Lenovo is implicity making promises about the notebook working with Verizon. And it seems pretty natural to assume that it would work with existing accounts. Frankly, why wouldn't you assume that? So Lenovo, to me, seems complicit in leading people astray.

While I suppose you are right, I would not expect Lenovo to disclose this information and lose potential laptop sales. It's always the question you 'think' you already know the answer to, that you don't bother to ask. Computer hardware vendors have been doing this sort of thing since day one.

It was mentioned that you have to pay a fee to get existing Verizon data service to work with the T60. The details were not spelled out. Is this a Verizon customer with existing PC card EV-DO service that is trying to transfer the service to the T60? What is the fee? Is it a $35 activation fee or something simular, or is it some other fee? [I do not have service with Verizon, so I am not familiar with their policies]

Gom,

I called Verizon Wireless directly.

As I mentioned, I was a Verizon EVDO subscriber
using a Kyocera air card prior to purchasing the T60.

One of the big reasons I chose the Lenovo was because
of the embedded EVDO capability.

When I called Verizon to transfer my air card account
to the Lenovo access software, I was told that it was only
available to new subscribers. In order for me to take
advantage of Lenovo's EVDO hardware I would have to
create a new account. I was told this would be impossible
since I am already under a 2-year contract. In order to
create a new account I would have to pay separate full
access fees.

The more I think about this the more angry I get. You
mean Verizon can't possibly allow me to transfer my account
to a new one? How friggin' impossible could that be? I am
going to call them back later today and talk with a Supervisor.

On another note...

I'm also very disheartened with the wireless capability of
this notebook. Not sure if the network card is new hardware
that has just been released, but it's wreaking havoc on my
home network. It knocks my other laptops and desktop
off of the wireless network. My other laptops don't do that
and I have already been on the phone with Linksys several
times to make sure the router is giving out the correct
permissions.

The wireless card also has a tough time keeping a connection.

I'm also still having issues with this model giving me the
blue screen of death when I try to use my Logitech webcam.

I am really at odds here whether to keep this T60 or not.
Somehow, I feel if I go with my original choice the HP DV1000T,
I would be giving up durability but getting hardware that would
be more compatable and stable than what I am experiencing now.

What do you guys recommend? Do you see Lenovo
issuing software updates in the near future that will address
these poblems? I already installed the SOFTWARE UPDATE
from the Lenovo website and have been installing whatever
has been offered.

My thanks to all of you. This board is a terrific source of
information and all of you have been extremely helpful.

NJRonbo wrote:When I called Verizon to transfer my air card account
to the Lenovo access software, I was told that it was only
available to new subscribers. In order for me to take
advantage of Lenovo's EVDO hardware I would have to
create a new account. I was told this would be impossible
since I am already under a 2-year contract. In order to
create a new account I would have to pay separate full
access fees.

The more I think about this the more angry I get. You
mean Verizon can't possibly allow me to transfer my account
to a new one? How friggin' impossible could that be? I am
going to call them back later today and talk with a Supervisor.

Definitely not cool. I would be furious too. It would be like buying a CDMA phone on ebay, and being told by Verizon that you couldn't use it without creating a new account. I never heard of such a thing.

I had something vaguely simular happen with Cingular. I was paying $79.99/mo for unlimited EDGE data service. I saw on Cingular's site a promotion for the same service at $59.99/mo for new subscribers that signed up before 12/31/05. Why shouldn't I get the same price as a new subscriber? I called Cingular customer support several times to try and get the lower price (I couldn't do it via the web). Some customer service reps said I couldn't get it, and others said I would have to physically go to a Cingular store to get the lower price. Finally when I had the chance I went to a Cingular store, but this store turned out not to be a "company store", even though it appeared to be one. This store could not help me, and they directed me to a Cingular company store. When I got there, the sales rep at first said I could not get the lower price service. I explained to him that I was told by customer service on the phone that I could get this done at a Cingular store. The saleman then went online and found out he was able to switch me to the lower cost, but unlimited service.

The above is just an anecdote to give you possible encouragement and hopefully get the Verizon issue resolved to your satisfaction. Keep us posted.

NJRonbo wrote:When I called Verizon to transfer my air card account
to the Lenovo access software, I was told that it was only
available to new subscribers. In order for me to take
advantage of Lenovo's EVDO hardware I would have to
create a new account. I was told this would be impossible
since I am already under a 2-year contract. In order to
create a new account I would have to pay separate full
access fees.

This is utter nonsense, pure and simple. Nor should it require a special call to a supervisor.

Carry the lsptop into your neighborhood Verizon agent (they're ubiquitous, I've got four here in my small town!) with a copy of your bill with your EVDO account on it and tell them to transfer it to your new laptop. Shouldn't take them more than 5 minutes. If they have a problem transferring the account, find your nearest Verizon Wireless store and visit their service desk (usually) in the back of the store.

If Verizon continues to give you a hard time drop me an email. I've got a phone number for Verizon Presidential appeals/complaints that will quickly sort this out.

I constantly upgrade my cell phones, as well as my wife's, and have never had a problem getting my account and number transferred to a new phone by my local retailer. They will usually have a tranfer box that will clone my contact info to the new phone as well.

WRT your WiFi problems, have you used Access Connections to set your home WAP as you default access?

It pains me that you purchased all of those overpriced accessories and upgrades directly from Lenovo, but I hope we here in the Forum can help to get this T60 working to your eventual satisfaction.

Regards,

James

JHEM,

I'll tell you what.

I'm off next Tuesday. I'll go to Verizon and have
a talk with them. If the situation does not get resolved,
I'll be in touch with you. Thanks for the offer to help.

WRT your WiFi problems, have you used Access Connections to set your home WAP as you default access?

There is an AUTOMATIC indication next to my network
name when I right click the network icon in the taskbar.

Where is ACCESS COMMUNICATIONS located so I can
take a look there?

There's also the FN KEY + 5 (I think that's it) that also
initiates a connection manager. I'm not on the laptop now
so it's hard to remember.

If you have Access Connections running, there should be an icon in the system tray to the right, that looks like a laptop or TV with a line going down to a bar that has an additional line going out each side.

Access Connections is located in Start > All Programs > ThinkVantage > Access Connections. If you have an older version, it will be in Start > All Programs > Access IBM > Access Connections.

EDIT: Fn + F5 turns the wireless radio on and off - both Wireless LAN (802.11) and Bluetooth. [I don't have Bluetooth, but that's what I've heard]

Here are the instructions: just put a first CD in the drive and label it "Rescue and Recovery startup Disk" and then insert a dvd and label it "Product Recovery Disk". Wen you don´t have anymore the option to create restore disks, you must restore your system to the factory state before this option appears again.

Need a little clarification here. Please follow along.....

1. The first disc must be a CD that gets labeled
STARTUP AND RECOVERY

2. When it starts to ask you to put in the next disc (DISC #1)
at that point I put in a DVD and it copies all 6 CDs to that DVD?

The part I am not clear on is this....

When you don´t have anymore the option to create restore disks, you must restore your system to the factory state before this option appears again.

What does that mean? After the 6th disc is imprinted on my
DVD - or when it says completed imaging - what then? I don't
understand the part about resetting to factory state.

By the way,

I am returning my T60 for a replacement.

The Lenovo tech seems to think that perhaps my wireless
network card has an electrical short circuit which may be why
it's knocking my other computers off my wireless network.

To avoid delays, I just bought another T60 and when it arrives,
I send back the defective one for a refund.

If I have the same problems with my new T60 I will just call
it quits and buy an HP.

One last update...

Just got off the phone with Verizon.

The only way Verizon can transfer a current EVDO subscriber
over to the Lenovo system is IF the Lenovo
contains an embedded Verizon serial number EVDO card.

I haven't checked my laptop yet to see what sort of card is
in there -- and I'm not exactly sure where to look -- but if the
built-in EVDO air card is a Verizon make with compatable serial #
they can transfer an account over.

Otherwise, it's considered a brand-new account because you
need to be assigned a new phone number with a card that is not
registered with Verizon and all charges apply.

What the previous poster meant was that after you make your first set, whether it be 6 CDs or 1 CD and a DVD, you will no longer have the option to make the recovery disks UNTIL AFTER you use them and reset your system to factory state.

IBM/Lenovo only allows you to make one set. Though if problems occur during the process, they might be willing to send you a set without charging you the $45, or whatever the cost is.

Keep us posted on the Verizon saga.
Inquiring minds want to know.

NJRonbo wrote: The Lenovo tech seems to think that perhaps my wireless
network card has an electrical short circuit which may be why
it's knocking my other computers off my wireless network.

Now that would be the famous hot-wired wireless-network-cable then.
Nice to finally meet one. Why don't you just dismantle it yourself and sell it on ebay? I'm sure you'd get a decent price.

SCNR

Southy

did you try pulling the add in memory..?
this might clear up more than the camera problem..

which wifi card..? the intel or the IBM..?

the Sierra Wireless card is locked to verizon.. just like cell phones..
there might be a code that can be used to unlock the card.. just like cellphones..

did you try pulling the add in memory..?
this might clear up more than the camera problem..

Bill, please explain. Do you think I might have a defective
memory stick in there? I tried MEMTEST to test it, but could
not figure out how to use it (It wants two installed copies for
WinXP and my configuration). I have SANDRA PRO which might
be able to test the memory in the machine.

he Sierra Wireless card is locked to verizon.

Sierra is the type of card installed? Aaah. I wonder
if that is a qualified Verizon brand that they can transfer my
EVDO account over to.

NJRonbo wrote:One last update...

Just got off the phone with Verizon.

The only way Verizon can transfer a current EVDO subscriber
over to the Lenovo system is IF the Lenovo
contains an embedded Verizon serial number EVDO card.

I haven't checked my laptop yet to see what sort of card is
in there -- and I'm not exactly sure where to look -- but if the
built-in EVDO air card is a Verizon make with compatable serial #
they can transfer an account over.

Otherwise, it's considered a brand-new account because you
need to be assigned a new phone number with a card that is not
registered with Verizon and all charges apply.

Ronbo, the number you'll need is called the ESN (same as phones) and yes, it's a Verizon number. To get it, open the VZ Access Manager and use the HELP menu...all you need to give Verizon should be there.

BTW: If it helps, I got the run-around on the phone w/Verizon, too. I didn't have an existing account, but they still didn't know what was up with this new Sierra card...I had to explain myself to several people...I guess because it's still so new. Anyway, the store idea was a good one...take it in and give them that ESN and you should be OK.

jeremivw,

So, I am hoping that you were in the same boat
as I was here? Were you also a EVDO subscriber
who had to have your access switched over to the
Lenovo?

Your posts sounds very promising that I will
have this situation taken care of. Thank You for
the good news this morning.

NJRonbo,

I am glad to see you posted this as I myself am currently waiting for my new T60 2623-D8U with the built in Sierra Wireless EV-DO Verizon card. I am sure everyone here would like to know if you managed (and how you did it) to transfer your account, me especially as I am in the same board with an active PC card.

In terms of the part upgrades, please be careful of eBay or cheap non-Lenovo branded and certified equipment for several reasons: First and most important is that Lenovo laptops will actually check to ensure you're using a certified/Lenovo Hard Drive or Wireless card for example, maybe even memory and you will get errors at startup. You can get around them by hacking the bios (not for the faint of heart) or by flashing the firmware on the HD (did this one myself with a Hitachi 100GB 7200RPM) and take care of the problem, but it's tricky and not trivial. Second, is that while some may work without immediate obvious issues they can cause the kind of problems you describe with your webcam. RAM for example is very particular and if you add memory it should be identical in every way to what is already in the laptop.

As for your imaging needs, why not use a really good tool like Acronis True Image? It will work great with ALL your machines, creates images on the LAN or to a local HD/CD/DVD/USB and restores really fast. Given the amount of money you spent already, licensing this will be peanuts and pay for itself in no time.

Finally, once you have an image, try UNINSTALLING the Access Connections software altogether! I have read countless posts and experienced it's "stupidity" in person, which is why I uninstalled it from my T41. I got to tell you that after that my wireless worked flawless using just the Windows XP built-in configuration. If that fails too, Lenovo has the Atheros based wireless card (almost identical to what I am running now) and honestly it runs rings around the Intel one and its management and diagnostics software are an absolute delight.

Keep us posted....

I too have been using PC Cards from Verizon for over 2 years. When i bought my t60p i called them on the phone...it took 2 technicians, but they transfered the service, no fee what so ever.l

It only takes five minutes because I had pccard Verizon modem as well. Just tell them you are switching ESNs on the line. You get the new ESN from the Verizon connect software with one of the options.