T60 as Gaming Computer

[astro]

The CPU has never been an issue - except when it comes to heat - the laptops try to strike a balance between speed, heat, and battery life. While my desktop run at full power and never has any heat issues.

That said - my z60m with a 2mb cache on a pentium M approaches my desktop in terms on playabibility but never matches it. The Pentium 4M suffered the same heat related issues as the Pentium 4A. I think the Core Duo will also suffer the power and heat issues as the Pentium 4-M and Pentium 4D. However, it remains to be seen. Which is why I'm waiting to see the results on heat related failures before I jump to Core Duo.

Sorry to dig up an old thread -- just wanted to share my experience.

My primary gaming machine (until this morning ) has been my trusty old (circa 2003) 'budget-gamer' desktop:
- Athlon 2600XP (2.0GHz)
- 512MB DDR
- Radeon 9600XT / 128MB
- scores ~1970 in 3DMark05.

My new T60:
- Core Duo T2500 (2.0GHz
- 1024MB DDR2
- Radeon X1400 / 128MB
- scores ~2070 in 3DMark05.

The X1400 architecture is nearly identical to the 9600XT (and X600), so the 3DMark scores are no surprise -- it is a _little_ bit faster in the GPU rendering tests, but where the T60 shines is in the CPU rendering tests, where the Core Duo is about 2x faster than the 2600XP.

Now to my point (finally): this has made a huge difference for me in Counter-Strike: Source. On my desktop, in 32-player maps and in firefights (where it counts) my frame rate would drop to ~15FPS, getting me killed. On the T60 it never drops below 45 FPS. The laptop is seriously performing around 3x faster than the desktop.

Why? Half-Life 2's physics engine. I found that my desktop was CPU-limited. Though the 9600XT can push upwards of 120FPS (dependent on settings), the 2600XP (which I don't consider a _slow_ CPU) was maxing and grinding everything to a halt. By contrast, playing on the T60, CS:S uses ~ 50-60% (completely maxes 1 core and uses about 20% of the other core). Just awesome.

Lastly:
CPU temp goes from 41oC (idle) to ~51oC
GPU temp goes from 61oC (idle) to ~72oC
Ambient temp is ~13oC.

EDIT: Corrected utilisation and temps after another "TEST"

[a31pguy]

I have to agree. I have the t60p 2623DDU now and well - it's fast. How fast? Very fast. The overclocked desktop Prescott at 3.6 ghz CPU scores 12,000 whetstones - the t60p with the Core Duo at 2.0 ghz - 15,000 whetstones. A31p score 3,000 and the Z60m 760 2.0 ghz scored 8,000 whetstones.


It makes an excellant gaming machine - espcecially with a 7200 rpm 100 gb hdd.

Heat issues - none. Power issues - some on battery mode. Video playback in battery mode needs to be tweaked a bit. Lack a firewire port and a SD card slot.

Otherwise - great machine.

[ramian]

I don't know under which category I should place myself.. while I do play the occasional game (occasional being about 2 months every year when I'm on leave or during holidays), none of the games I actually play aren't all that demanding. I'm more of a RTS/RPG/racing kinda gamer, and so don't really need the FPS offered by high end cards. That being said, while I have been more or less satisfied by the gaming performance of my PC, my recent re-entry into gaming (Heroes V) has made me quite a bit disappointed with my PC.

I was, for quite some time, under the impression that my PC was rather decent in terms of gaming performance. The last time I had actually run a benchmark on it was when I had built it; 3DMark01/03 results were 14100+/4162 respectively, which back in 2003 were actually quite good, or so I thought. I was quite rudely taken aback when I found I couldn't even play Heroes V with even Normal graphics on 1024x768 as it would just lag from the get-go. It's now sufferable on Very Low, but I was thinking, for gods' sake, it's only a strategy game!! It's only after I ran 3DMark05 and got a miserable score of 727 that I realised that compared to the new Core-Duo notebooks that were being released, my PC was a veritable snail.

PC Specifications:
Pentium 4 2.6C @ 2.6Ghz
1Gb Corsair PC3200 400Mhz 2.5-2-2-8 @ Dual Channel
nVidia FX5700U 128Mb

I've been doing mainly video/multimedia work on my PC (over and above gaming) and I've never actually found it to be slow or lacking.

Since my old notebook (a Fujitsu E7010) died in Feb this year, I knew I needed a replacement. I was initially considering one with integrated graphics as I was still rather delusional about the performance of my PC at that time. But after seeing 3DMark05 crawl along at 1-3 fps, and the rather absymmal performance in an apparently non-graphics-demanding game such as Heroes V, I knew I had to get a notebook with decent graphical capabilities. I could have upgraded my PC for a lot cheaper than any decent laptop, but it still had quite a bit of life left in it, and I didn't want to just waste a perfectly good PC (have got no space for a second PC so that would have been entirely out of the question).

My search for a decent gaming notebook thus began. I wanted something with the screen/build quality of my old Fujitsu E7010 while still having modest gaming capabilities. My requirement for screen/build quality almost immediately put brands like Acer, Dell, HP/Compaq and Toshiba out of the running, leaving only ASUS, Fujitsu, Lenovo and LG in my list of choices. Since I had a fairly good experience with Fujitsu for 3.5 years, the new E8210 was my first choice. But when I realised that the model with the WSXGA+ screen would never be making its way to Singapore, I had to look elsewhere. The ASUS notebooks looked real good, especially the V6J and the W3J; both bombed out for a number of reasons, the W3J was still stuck in a world of old-resolution screens (WXGA) and both had un-fantastic vertical viewing angles and an exhaust port on the right (where one would logically be using an external mouse). I didn't fancy suffering from sweaty palms or neck pain, and so decided to forget them. The LG-S1 also fell out of my list due to the unavailability of the high-res WSXGA+ screen in Singapore and the rather plasticky surface which seemed as if it would be a fingerprint magnet.

I was pretty much left with one choice, that being the T60. I wanted something which could survive the "punishment" that I deal out to my computers, something which my old E7010 was able to until the day it died. I also wanted a high-resolution screen (SXGA/WSXGA+) screen with good vertical viewing angles. Gaming performance was also a thing which I was looking out for. I decided on the T60, even though it "only" had the x1400 as I knew, for my gaming purposes anyway, I'd almost never make full use of the x1600 that was found on many of the notebooks I had previously considered, and that I'd be getting a lot lot more than that with a Thinkpad. I have had experience with Thinkpads before; my parents have a T30 and a T42 and they are pretty happy with them.

I just ordered the 2007-72A today, and will hopefully be getting it in a week's time. While I know most of the time spent on the laptop will be on work, I think that any occasional game that I play on it will be actually playable with decent graphical performance. While I do not consider it as a gaming laptop, I think that it is one of the few laptops which actually offer great screen/build quality, a high-resolution screen and more than decent gaming performance.

cheers!

[darrenf]

[...] this has made a huge difference for me in Counter-Strike: Source. On my desktop, in 32-player maps and in firefights (where it counts) my frame rate would drop to ~15FPS, getting me killed. On the T60 it never drops below 45 FPS. The laptop is seriously performing around 3x faster than the desktop. [...]

And that's on one core -- just wait until HL2 is multi-threaded! You'll see another (roughly) doubling of your CPU performance!

-darren

[kimx]

My T60 is sufficient for my gaming needs

Lately I've been playing Command & Conquer Generals: Zero Hour, and it play without a problem, I play in 1400x1050 with high grafics detail, and there's no slowdown at all.

[tselling]

I used my T41p previously and now my new T60p for gaming. I really don't want a desktop and I like to be able to use my computer anywhere in the house. I am hooked on the Thinkpad trackpoint. None of the other vendor implementations of a trackpoint come even close.

The T41p did ok with Everquest and Everquest II at 1024x768 which I used to play alot. I now play Oblivion at 1024x768 on my T60p without any problems.

[Queen Mary]

I am getting a T60 T2500 with a 2 ghz duo core processor, 1 GB of ram, and a Radeon X1400 128 MB card. I plan on running some games like BF2 fine, but I am still up in the air with Oblivion. Now I obviously don't need it on high settings, but will I able to play this game at all?

I heard one guy, who has the same specs as mine - except he has a dell - , was able to run the game on 1024x768 with an average of 35 FPS! It was not the 256 MB card either, just the 128 MB.

[darrenf]

Oblibvion isn't graphically intensive. Not like BF2 and FEAR are. On my T60p I can play Oblivion with PowerPlay active (!!) on battery and find it playable. After all, it's not a FPS. I think you'll be very happy.

-darren

[Queen Mary]

Oblibvion isn't graphically intensive. Not like BF2 and FEAR are. On my T60p I can play Oblivion with PowerPlay avtive (!!) on battery and find it playable. After all, it's not an FPS. I think you'll be very happy.

-darren

Ah, yes, but you havea T60p! So essentially you are playing with that firegl 256mb card! Unfortunately, I have an X1400 128mb. But thank you for the input!

By any chance, does anyone with a regular old T60 play Oblivion?

[darrenf]

Remember that your card will come with 256M total (hypermemory).

-darren

[NaBachman]

I have a T60 with the x1400 and Oblivion runs fine. It will say it cannot detect the video card and put you at medium quality, but I bumped the resolution up 800x600 and it runs smooth. High quality is a bit choppy though.

[Queen Mary]

Thanks alot guys! I love this place!

[codek]

will the v5200 run bf2 at all?

[pphilipko]

Personally, I keep my work laptops far away from games. Not only do I get MUCH better performance on my desktops, but it relieves the strain my mind goes through trying to resist the addiction of gaming.

Just my 2 cents.

[jagged]

Hey guys,

I know that desktops are better and way cheaper for gaming. But although I bought a T60 cuz I needed a high quality computer for work, I also like to play RTS or strategy games occasionally and I find it a hassle to maintain another PC just for that.

I just have Civilization 4 installed on my older T60 (ATI X1300) and it runs smooth generally. But on huge maps, waiting for a turn to end gets delayed a bit sometimes during later parts of a game.

I'm pretty sure that gaming will improve on a ATI X1400 but how about on the ATI Mobility FireGL V5200? I know that its not designed for gaming but will it offer a significant improvement over the X1400? Or will it get worse?

Any comments from T60p owners?

[darrenf]

The V5200 is an X1600 so it's better than the X1400. It has 12 pixel shaders and 5 vertex shaders vs. the 1400's 4 & 2 respectively. It also has twice the dedicated vidram (256M) and that ram runs at GDDR3 instead of GDDR1.

It's pretty much the heat. At least as far as ThinkPads go.

Lenovo turns down the clocks on the V5200 something fierce, though, and the cooling isn't adequate to overclock to full speed (470/470?) so you won't get the full advertised performance of the X1600. I don't know how they clock the X1400 by default -- perhaps someone else can speak to that. I hear some of them are running hot so perhaps they are clocking that one a little more aggressivley.

-darren

[pphilipko]

The V5200 is an X1600 so it's better than the X1400. It has 12 pixel shaders and 5 vertex shaders vs. the 1400's 4 & 2 respectively. It also has twice the dedicated vidram (256M) and that ram runs at GDDR3 instead of GDDR1.

It's pretty much the heat. At least as far as ThinkPads go.

Lenovo turns down the clocks on the V5200 something fierce, though, and the cooling isn't adequate to overclock to full speed (470/470?) so you won't get the full advertised performance of the X1600. I don't know how they clock the X1400 by default -- perhaps someone else can speak to that. I hear some of them are running hot so perhaps they are clocking that one a little more aggressivley.

-darren

Download ATI tool, and you'll be able to ascertain the clock speeds.
http://www.techpowerup.com/atitool/

[ramian]

I don't know how they clock the X1400 by default -- perhaps someone else can speak to that. I hear some of them are running hot so perhaps they are clocking that one a little more aggressivley.

-darren

The stock core/clock on my T60 with the x1400 is 391/342.

[darrenf]

Download ATI tool, and you'll be able to ascertain the clock speeds.
http://www.techpowerup.com/atitool/

Be aware that you'll need the latest Beta to use ATI Tool with the V5200 -- the stable release doesn't support it (I can't speak for the X1400).

-darren

[darrenf]

The stock core/clock on my T60 with the x1400 is 391/342.

I poked around the web and found a lack of information on the typical clock rates for this chip. I was able to confirm that the X1600 is usually clocked at 470/470. The unit in the T60p is clocked at 210/135 when in max powersave and 400/325 at max performance.

I've been able to clock it as low as 115/95 (with little impact on battery life unfortunately) and as high as 465/420. The problem in overclocking this chip is that the software available (ATI Tool, Power Strip and perhaps ATI Tray Tool if it's been fixed) frequently lock up the machine trying to change modes, even to safe speeds.

If anyone has a stable way to OC/UC the V5200, please share your setup.

-darren

[rockefella]

Download ATI tool, and you'll be able to ascertain the clock speeds.
http://www.techpowerup.com/atitool/

Be aware that you'll need the latest Beta to use ATI Tool with the V5200 -- the stable release doesn't support it (I can't speak for the X1400).

-darren

So that perhaps explains why the ATI Tool crashes my computer whenever I push the Find Max Core and Memory buttons.

[darrenf]

Be aware that you'll need the latest Beta to use ATI Tool with the V5200 -- the stable release doesn't support it (I can't speak for the X1400).

-darren

So that perhaps explains why the ATI Tool crashes my computer whenever I push the Find Max Core and Memory buttons.

Actually, no. That happens with every OCing program. If you use the "stable" version of ATI Tool rather than the beta I think it complains on startup and won't work at all. I was able to probe for max clocks by changing clocks with PowerStrip and testing for defects (only) with ATI Tool. Even so, it locked up many times (at random, not because of high clocks) while testing and I still don't have a way to set the clocks that works every time. At best I can change the clock two or three times before I got hit with a lockup.

I wish we had a solution to this because the V5200 really cooks when it's OC'd. (no pun intended)

-darren

[codek]

So that perhaps explains why the ATI Tool crashes my computer whenever I push the Find Max Core and Memory buttons.

Actually, no. That happens with every OCing program. If you use the "stable" version of ATI Tool rather than the beta I think it complains on startup and won't work at all. I was able to probe for max clocks by changing clocks with PowerStrip and testing for defects (only) with ATI Tool. Even so, it locked up many times (at random, not because of high clocks) while testing and I still don't have a way to set the clocks that works every time. At best I can change the clock two or three times before I got hit with a lockup.

I wish we had a solution to this because the V5200 really cooks when it's OC'd. (no pun intended)

-darren

but if you oc, don't you have to compensate for the extra heat. can you use AS5 or anything of that sort since the gpu is integrated on the motherboard?

[christopher_wolf]

Yes, you will have to compensate for the extra heat. Although there is a range of temperatures that the cooling system is designed to be able to handle; furthermore, there are extra safety margins engineered in should anything run a tad higher than normal most of the time.

I have used ATI tool on my T43 and I can indeed say it has gotten unstable at times. Although I did manage to OC my x300 significantly and got higher performance as a result; the GPU was being cooled just fine without any physical changes when OCed.

[arnvid]

I ran World of Warcraft without any problems on my T41p, but on my T60p it seems to be dragging itself down into the mud at times when it touches the disk.. Taking a screenshot locks the computer for 5 seconds or so.

[darrenf]

I ran World of Warcraft without any problems on my T41p, but on my T60p it seems to be dragging itself down into the mud at times when it touches the disk.. Taking a screenshot locks the computer for 5 seconds or so.

I don't play WoW, but something sounds wrong. Are you running the hard drive in AHCI or compatability mode? (I hope I have those names right.)

-darren

[dr72]

I can play WoW on my T60p with every option maxed and get around 15-20 fps according to the in-game counter.

Using stock drivers, and 1.06 bios and only 1 gig of ram at the moment.

[Queen Mary]

I have a T60 with the x1400 and Oblivion runs fine. It will say it cannot detect the video card and put you at medium quality, but I bumped the resolution up 800x600 and it runs smooth. High quality is a bit choppy though.

Were you able to run any bloom or shadows, full draw distance?