TouchPad (and now TrackPoint too!) Usability

[donking!]

Okay, having used the ultra-tiny touchpad on the T60 now for a while. I have a couple critiques of it.

1) It is sooooooooooooooo tiny. But we all know this. Still, annoying.

2) My five year old VAIO had a feature where when I tap and drag, it can be set to release the drag lock if I lift my finger for a specified period of time (one second or so). This was very useful. I find it much more practical than having to tap again to release the drag lock.

For example, it can get really annoying to have to tap after I have selected some text so that the cursor goes out of selection mode. Otherwise, the cursor remains in drag lock mode, it still thinks it's selecting, and I can't hit control-c, delete, etc., and have it work (but I don't find out nothing was copied to the clipboard until I get to wherever I wanted to copy the text and discover there's nothing to paste). On the other hand, if I tap a second time to be sure the cursor is out of selection mode, this may accidentally clear the entire selection that I just made. Very annoying.

This also creates problems if I'm scrolling through a long window by tapping on the arrow. If I tap twice to hold the button down, I then have to tap again to get the scrolling to stop (because the cursor has gone into locking drag mode and just keeps holding the button down). It seems much more natural, to me, to have the scrolling stop when I lift my finger (as if I'm lifting it off the button, go figure).

3) Okay, this is crazy. I tap twice to drag and hold. I'm dragging a window or file or something around. I'm ready to drop it. For whatever reason, I hit either the TrackPoint button or TrackPad button to release the object, nothing happens. Since I picked up the object by double tapping, I also have to release it by tapping on the TouchPad. It's as if the left-click TouchPad and TrackPoint buttons have been disabled. I maintain that a left click should be recognized as a left click, no matter which device was used to start the whole process. In fact, it's so non-sensical I really consider this a flaw on the T60 and not just a lack of functionality that I'd like to see. (And yes this also worked on my old VAIO.)

In conclusion) It's really just baffling to me. I mean, there are all these super gee-whiz features built into the UltraNav settings. Tap zones, srolling zones, edge motion, sticky boarders, all highly configurable by the user. And there's also alternate functionality for the TouchPad and TrackPoint, so they can be used for different purposes. Yet, IBM/Lenovo can't just get basic tapping and dragging right?

[Ponch]

I don't know why to use a Trackpad when you have the fantastic Trackpoint. It is so much faster and you have much more precision with it.
And you don't have to move your finger around all the time.
I would be glad if the next T models don't have a Trackpad anymore (like the X models).

[Army Chief]

I have to agree; it's the Trackpoint that really shines on these machines. The touchpad is of decidedly secondary importance, and I think the overall design is a good reflection of the typical ThinkPad user's priorities.

Chief

[kwramm]

just curious, but what size is the trackpad? (in cm or in)

[Ponch]

just curious, but what size is the trackpad? (in cm or in)

5,5 x3,8cm

[kwramm]

5,5 x3,8cm

thanks for the info. just 5 mm smaller on each side than my current notebook's trackpad. I can live with that, and I have the cool trackpoint too.

[archer6]

After 2 weeks on my T60 I must say that I've adjusted to the reduced size of the touchpad and really like it. Still, I use the trackpoint the most, as I like the precision and ergonomics. However I have been using ThinkPads long before there was a touch pad and have always preferred the track point.

[donking!]

I have to agree; it's the Trackpoint that really shines on these machines. The touchpad is of decidedly secondary importance, and I think the overall design is a good reflection of the typical ThinkPad user's priorities.

Okay, I can get used to the smaller size of the TouchPad. It really wan't my main point. Still, I totally fail to understand why they changed the size from the T4x design. Why not make everyone happy?

I also frankly don't believe that the "typical" ThinkPad user prefers the TrackPoint. I know it is much beloved by many. But I'm sure lot's of people, if not more, get this notebook for other reasons and want to use the more standard TouchPad. I also wonder if there even is such as thing as a singular "typical" user, rather than a multitude of users with varying practices and preferences.

And, regardless of what the "typical" user may or may not be, this still doesn't respond to the obvious oversights in the software for tapping and dragging on the TouchPad. Making that work well has nothing to do with the TrackPoint. I don't see how Lenovo benefits from designing a machine that's really good with it's TrackPoint and mediocre with it's TouchPad.

Although I will also add that tapping doesn't work well on the TrackPoint either. It requires too much pressure. At the same time, I have a lot of problems with the TrackPoint that are often complaints about the TouchPad--e.g. accidentally hitting it while I'm typing and having the cursor fly off in crazy directions and select all kinds of text.

So nothing's ideal. But let's at least write software drivers for them that provide minimal decent funtionality. Come on, who is going to defend tapping and dragging being poorly designed on the TouchPad?

[astro]

But I'm sure lot's of people, if not more, get this notebook for other reasons and want to use the more standard TouchPad. I also wonder if there even is such as thing as a singular "typical" user, rather than a multitude of users with varying practices and preferences.

Agree -- though FWIW, trackpoint is the only reason I am not buying an MBP. On a slight tangent, perhaps someone should create a "switch" video advertising how great the trackpoint is and why you should 'switch to Thinkpad'.

Seriously, I think we all agree that the T60 touchpad is smaller -- however, the rest of your concerns seem to be about Lenovo's touchpad software, rather than the T60 in particular?

[donking!]

Yeah, my main concerns are about the capacities built into the Lenovo's TouchPad software. I don't know if these concerns are particular to the T60 or not, since this is my first ThinkPad.

I guess the tapping and dragging issues don't bother anyone else? That is, since no one seems to be jumping on my bandwagon here.

[donking!]

Okay, not to critique the much beloved TrackPoint (and it is definitely very cool and adds a nice functionality to computer work), but, well, here goes:

1) I really wish the TrackPoint had something like the PalmCheck functionality on the TouchPad. I am constantly accidentally hitting it, sending it flying all over the screen, inadvertently moving the cursor and/or selecting text, and then accidentally overwriting something I've typed.

2) I think it would be better if the TrackPoint keys were inverted vertically. It would be easier to reach them, without straining my thumb. The part of the key that needs to be depressed, for me, ought to be the top part of the key (like on the scroll key) so that it is as close to the space bar as possible.

3) What is the point of the Button Lock functionality in the TrackPoint Accessibility control panel? That functionality already exists in the first pane of the Windows Mouse control panel (more of Lenovo's strange penchant for redundant software). And the Windows version works better. The TrackPoint version is buggy. When enabled the cursor often gets stuck in a drag lock, where I can't drop something no matter what key I hit. Although, curiously, if I open the Task Manager, after a second then the drag lock releases.

4) The Release-to-Select feature on the TrackPoint doesn't work worth a darn. And the Press-to-Select feature hardly works. It's not sensitive enough. How about a sensitivity adjustment like is so common for tapping on touchpads?

[christopher_wolf]

The driver software provided for the Touchpad is via Synaptic; many laptops, and I mean many, use the Synaptic drivers for customizing the touchpad...It isn't just the UltraNav that does it. As far as I can discren, the UltraNav works in conjuction with the touchpad.

Kinda don't know why extra palm check should be in-place if the touchpad gets smaller as, on mine, I have no problem with palm hits and it is bigger.

Most people that I have seen use the Thinkpad use the Trackpoint as a pointing device; there is a small, but significant, amount of people out there who use the touchpad more often or use it in a 50/50 split. Touchpads are still pretty "new" in terms of Thinkpad history, especially in combo with the trackpoint. That was introduced on the T30 and expanded into other Thinkpad lines later on.

Putting the main depression zone closer to the spacebar isn't that great of an idea for many users; not that is bad, just that almost all of the implementations I have seen that try to move it very close to the spacebar end up annoying the user with "accidental" clicks. I just slide my thumb over and use different parts.

You have the ability to change the sensitivity on teh PTS feature, although I don't know how large of a range you get...Probably not as wide as the range for sensitivty for the Trackpoint. The tap to drop feature has never been useful to me or anybody else I have seen dragging and dropping, even with a touchpad. It seems as if you need a good "click" event to get triggered, and whilst the mind thinks "OK, I lessened pressure there..." The computer doesn't pick it up. Maybe it is just me, but I find it hard to drag-and-drop with *only* the Touchpad and a tap-to-click feature on it. Perhaps this is because of differing standards, but I have seen the same synaptic drivers on most of those laptops.

[donking!]

The driver software provided for the Touchpad is via Synaptic; many laptops, and I mean many, use the Synaptic drivers for customizing the touchpad...It isn't just the UltraNav that does it. As far as I can discren, the UltraNav works in conjuction with the touchpad.

As I said above, in my post that began this thread, the drag-lock features, with the TouchPad, worked really well on my five year old VAIO. I never used the buttons. I don't know who designed the software drivers for my VAIO. And in any case, Lenovo chose to release the T60 with the particular drivers from Synaptics, so it's Lenovo's responsibility. I'm talking about my end user experience of the TouchPad on the T60, so to me it's really beside the point to pass the buck to Synaptics.

*

Most people that I have seen use the Thinkpad use the Trackpoint as a pointing device; there is a small, but significant, amount of people out there who use the touchpad more often or use it in a 50/50 split.

As I also said above to Army Chief, how do you know that it's only a minority of users who use the TouchPad? (Army Chief made a similar claim, if you read above, and I already responded to this claim, if you read above.) I know the TrackPoint is a beloved feature of the ThinkPads. But that hardly means it's the only reason to get a ThinkPad (there are obviously many things that recommend them as notebooks). It seems probable to me that, beyond the scope of just the people you've seen with ThinkPads, many people get ThinkPads for many reasons, amongst which the TrackPoint is only sometimes one of them. Perhaps the true ThinkPad devotees prefer the TrackPoint more often (perhaps not). But, if I had to guess (which is all you're doing), I would think more people in general, amongst all of the many people who buy ThinkPads for all sorts of reasons, use the more common TouchPad, because, well, it's the more common device. People are used to it. And a lot of people don't like TrackPoint type devices. But, again, I don't see why the presence of a TrackPoint would dissuade people who don't like the TrackPoint from getting a ThinkPad (and expecting a halfway decent TouchPad). So I don't see why we should assume that it's only or mostly the TrackPoint lovers who have ThinkPads. And, as I said in my earlier posts above in this thread, even if it is hypothetically true that more people use the TrackPoint, what does Lenovo gain from deploying software drivers for the TouchPad that aren't well designed?

*

Kinda don't know why extra palm check should be in-place if the touchpad gets smaller as, on mine, I have no problem with palm hits and it is bigger.

As far as PalmCheck goes, I was talking about a PalmCheck type device for the TrackPoint (not the TouchPad). I quote myself:

I really wish the TrackPoint had something like the PalmCheck functionality on the TouchPad.

Also, though you may have no problems with PalmCheck type issues with the TouchPad on the T4x, it is not clear to me why your particular experience should determine the usability design and functionality of the T60, to say nothing of ThinkPads in general.

*

As far as I can discren, the UltraNav works in conjuction with the touchpad.

1) I belive "UltraNav" is meant to refer to both the TrackPoint and TouchPad together. See:

http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/trkpnta.html

2) As I said above, in my initial post that started this thread, the TrackPoint and TouchPad, stangely, do not always work in conjunction. If one picks something up, with drag lock, by double tapping it, or if one locks the text selection function by double tapping, then neither the TrackPoint button nor the TouchPad button can release it.

*

You have the ability to change the sensitivity on teh PTS feature, although I don't know how large of a range you get...Probably not as wide as the range for sensitivty for the Trackpoint. The tap to drop feature has never been useful to me or anybody else I have seen dragging and dropping, even with a touchpad. It seems as if you need a good "click" event to get triggered, and whilst the mind thinks "OK, I lessened pressure there..." The computer doesn't pick it up. Maybe it is just me, but I find it hard to drag-and-drop with *only* the Touchpad and a tap-to-click feature on it. Perhaps this is because of differing standards, but I have seen the same synaptic drivers on most of those laptops.

I don't understand what you're saying here. You keep switching back an forth between TouchPad and TrackPoint and it is not at all clear to me which one you're talking about at what point.

I will say however, if I understood any of the above, that I find dragging and droping with tapping and tap-lock on the TouchPad to be very useful. Especially on my VAIO where it worked really well (though I still find it fairly useful on the T60). I assume that I am included in the category of "anybody," to which you refer when you say: "The tap to drop feature has never been useful to me or anybody else I have seen dragging and dropping, even with a touchpad."

[dr_st]

(A) Disable press-to-select on the trackpoint. It's the tool of the devil. Unlike the touchpad, which without press-to-select is 100% useless (as opposed to being 70% useless normally), the trackpoint is still perfectly useful without press-to-select. Disabling it will prevent those annoyances of "sending the cursor flying" or "selecting and overwriting text".

(B) The reason no one is jumping on the bandwagon is because most people who have used a touchpad and a trackpoint will recognize the superiority of the latter and switch to using it exclusively or almost exclusively (not talking here about people who just never tried and don't feel like trying). Therefore, a large community of the Thinkpad users (don't know if it's the majority or not, but it sure is large) will not be bothered by the touchpad and any related issues. Among those people who do use the touchpad - not all of them use the advanced features such as tap-to-drag. And among those who do - not all may want to use it exactly in the same way you do (because you're used to it from your old laptop). The things you're complaining about are very specific (that is not to say they aren't valid complaints), that's why you shouldn't expect lots of support here.

[f1reverb]

You aren't really a Trackpoint enthusiast unless all your desktop keyboards have TPs too. I bought a supply of new black 101 key clicky old school IBM TP desktop keyboards (and they are not USB versions) and there is no substitute. Frankly, the desktop unit's buttons are perfectly positioned, unlike the R52 I have where they are still not close enough to the spacebar for a touch typist to not even think to hit. I can just twitch my thumbs on the desktop keyboard buttons. The placement of the TP buttons on my old HP 5700 notebook was good for twitching too. I have to make a slightly conscious effort with the R52 for the buttons. It's funny, though, I can only control the TP with my left hand, and cannot do it right-handed, while I cannot control the touchpad with my left hand, only the right! When I'm just web-surfing I use the touchpad, but if I have to do any typing its the TP. I will never get a computer that doesn't have a TP.

[dr_st]

You aren't really a Trackpoint enthusiast unless all your desktop keyboards have TPs too.

Good point. I'm not that an enthusiast (yet, at least). A mouse is still superior and irreplaceable, especially for certain games.

[donking!]

dr_st,

Thanks for the suggestion about disabling press-to-select. Hopefully that will end my flying cursor problem. I guess I liked the idea of press-to-select on the TrackPoint, but I can see that it's not one of the better elements of that device.

The things you're complaining about are very specific (that is not to say they aren't valid complaints), that's why you shouldn't expect lots of support here.

Okay, I can get that perhaps not many people are into the TouchPad the way I am and do not want to use the very particular drag-lock type of freatures I like. But most people here do adhere to the idea that the ThinkPads are very well designed highly usable machines (especially where the keyboard comes into question). So I'd think people would take some pride in whether the TouchPad is well designed or not and not just write it off as unimportant.

The timed drag-lock release function I miss from my old computer, after all, is much more basic of a function than a lot of things built into the software drivers for the TouchPad (edge motion, scrolling, tap zones, constrained motion, sticky borders). And it seems like it would be so simple to put the timed drag-lock function in (seeing as, again, it has existed for a long time on other notebooks). Why not try to make as many people as happy as possible?

I think it is especially important to satisfy as many people as possible with the different pointing devices, since I don't buy the claim that the TrackPoint is an obviously superior device. It's cool. Sometimes I use it. I haven't really gotten into it (though I'm still hoping I might). I know plenty of people that don't like it. So it seems to me pretty clearly a matter of preference, between the TrackPoint and the TouchPad, and not the obvious superiority of one device over the other. That said, of course, it's great that so many people love it and find it so useful.

Still, what's really great about the ThinkPad, I believe, as far as pointing devices go, is that they've put a lot into having multiple pointing device options. Overall that makes for a much more usable computer for a variety of different people with different preferences and needs. To me that's the real hallmark of ThinkPad usability. So for the T60 1) to have a tiny lame TouchPad and 2) to lack a fairly basic drag-lock feature for those who do like TouchPads, all this is a mark against the ThinkPad, I think, in a much broader way. And that, I think, even TrackPoint afficionados might care about.

[donking!]

Update: Disabling press-to-select on the TrackPoint did not solve my wildly flying cursor problem (suddenly selecting a buch of text when I accidentally hit the TrackPoint and then that text getting deleted as I continue to type along in the split second that this all happens).

[dr_st]

Okay, I can get that perhaps not many people are into the TouchPad the way I am and do not want to use the very particular drag-lock type of freatures I like. But most people here do adhere to the idea that the ThinkPads are very well designed highly usable machines (especially where the keyboard comes into question). So I'd think people would take some pride in whether the TouchPad is well designed or not and not just write it off as unimportant.

Since they don't miss those features, it doesn't make them feel that the touchpad is poorly designed.

The timed drag-lock release function I miss from my old computer, after all, is much more basic of a function than a lot of things built into the software drivers for the TouchPad (edge motion, scrolling, tap zones, constrained motion, sticky borders). And it seems like it would be so simple to put the timed drag-lock function in (seeing as, again, it has existed for a long time on other notebooks). Why not try to make as many people as happy as possible?

Even the best designers sometimes have things slip out of their minds. It seems that it's important enough to you, so maybe you can try writing an email to Lenovo (or to the Synaptics guys, who make the touchpad hardware and software) and request this feature?

Update: Disabling press-to-select on the TrackPoint did not solve my wildly flying cursor problem (suddenly selecting a buch of text when I accidentally hit the TrackPoint and then that text getting deleted as I continue to type along in the split second that this all happens).

With press-to-select disabled it is impossible to select anything by just hitting the trackpoint (unless you have some other weird feature allowing you to select stuff by just moving the cursor). Assuming that you problem isn't caused by accidentally hitting the touchpad, make sure that press-to-select is really disabled (i.e. hit hard on the trackpoint and see if it registers as a left click).

[darrenf]

[...] it is not clear to me why your particular experience should determine the usability design and functionality of the T60, to say nothing of ThinkPads in general.[...]

Pot, meet kettle.

Only kidding - I hope you get it working to your satisfaction.

-darren

[archer6]

In the very beginning I had a Toshiba with a track point only, that was before touch pads. Then I migrated to the ThinkPad brand. Having experienced each generation of T series since, my personal opinion is the new touch pad on my T60 is very good. Yes it's smaller but I have adjusted to it and feel that it's more accurate and effective that the previous ThinkPad touch pad.

[donking!]

[...] it is not clear to me why your particular experience should determine the usability design and functionality of the T60, to say nothing of ThinkPads in general.[...]

Pot, meet kettle.

I don't think there's really any analogy at all, joke or no joke. In fact, I'm doing exactly the opposite thing.

If you read my post yesterday in response to dr_st, you'd see that I'm arguing for a T60 with as many different well designed pointing device options as possible, in order to accomodate as many different people with different needs and preferences as possible. I'm arguing that putting less attention to the TouchPad, than the TrackPoint, makes the T60 less versatile, less able to accomdate different people.

The post that you quote me from, was a response to someone who was completely dismissing my concerns about the TouchPad, because he seemed to think since it didn't matter to him, for the way he uses a ThinkPad, it didn't matter at all. Other posts here have taken a similar, though not as strong, position. Some people seem to think the TrackPoint is so great, who cares about the TouchPad.

I think a T60 that accomdates as many pointing device features as possible is a better designed machine, because it accomdates as many people as possible. I'm not dismissing features of the TrackPoint and TouchPad that I don't use. But people seem to feel compelled to dismiss my desire for what I think is a pretty basic feature.

*

dr_st, thanks for the further suggestion on the press-to-select function. It's definitely off. I think what is happening may have to do with the drag lock feature that I like using. Though I'm not really sure how that would work. It's a little curious and odd.

[Kyocera]

dr st:

Disable press-to-select on the trackpoint.

this comes in pretty handy once you get in about a 1,000 hours of practice time i have mine set to sort of slow and it usually hits every time now.

[JHEM]

As I also said above to Army Chief, how do you know that it's only a minority of users who use the TouchPad?

Because there are millions of Thinkpads still in use that never had a Trackpad, only a Trackpoint.

If you'd like to take a poll as to preference and report the results here, you have my blessing.

Personally? I have the Trackpad turned off on all of my Thinkpads that have one. Can't stand a Trackpad, never could.

Regards,

James

[PreZ]

Just to add fuel to the fire

I loathe touch pads myself - I always have. I disable them on any machine I have that has one, and use the track point. I'd prefer to carry an external PS/2 or USB mouse and use it that the touch pad myself.

I like the track point though (or as I call it, 'nipple mouse') I have since my first laptop (a Toshiba in fact) had one, and no touch pad. I'd be happy to see the touch pad go and that space used for something else.

I'm not saying people who use the touch pad are stupid or anything, but my personal opinion is I can't stand them.

Though obviously, a real mouse wins out over everything else ...

PreZ

[christopher_wolf]

The best solution to all of this is a mouse that can pick up and understand signals from human neurons and move the mouse accordingly. Most of that work is done by the brain anyhow.

I have also loved the Trackpoint on all my Thinkpads, never could get used to the Touchpad on it. Even when I use it occasionally, I still try using it like a Trackpoint; besides, there are many laptops out there that have bizzarely implemented touchpads...So much so that I pretty much prefer to use an external mouse because when you see another laptop that doesn't do a good job of the touchpad, you can't hold out much hope for that same laptop doing a better job on the Trackpoint.

And IBM Thinkpad and Toshiba Satellite both introduced me to good Trackpoint design. My 701c had the "Cat's Tongue" Classic IBM Trackpoint, and the old Toshiba has a smooth, yet wider, Trackpoint.

[PreZ]

I forgot to mention, the trackpoint was a major part of my laptop purchasing decision.

I looked around at various brands, but automatically nixed any laptop without a trackpoint.

PreZ

[donking!]

Because there are millions of Thinkpads still in use that never had a Trackpad, only a Trackpoint.

If you'd like to take a poll as to preference and report the results here, you have my blessing.

I don't think that would prove much. This forum has a self selecting population of ThinkPads enthusiasts. It wouldn't be surprising that they all love the TrackPoint more, if that turned out to be the case. But I doubt it would reflect much about all the many people out there in general who have ThinkPads or are given ThinkPads for their work.

Also, maybe I'm getting this wrong, but my recollection is that the TrackPoint was introduced when the TouchPad still hadn't been settled on as the standard laptop pointing device. Back in the day, there were still things like the original PowerBook with the trackball (a truly great pointing device, in my opinion). And all those tiny poorly designed trackballs. Then the TouchPad came along and IBM adopted it more or less along with everyone else (while also keeping the TrackPoint). So the fact that there are millions of ThinkPads with only TrackPoints reflects more an older state of the technology than a ThinkPad preference. But maybe I'm wrong about some of the timing of that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince anyone that the TrackPoint isn't great. I think it's really cool that IBM came up with a device that people love so much and find so useful. And I'm glad to have the option of using the TrackPoint myself. But I don't understand why people are so down on the TouchPad.

[JHEM]

The best solution to all of this is a mouse that can pick up and understand signals from human neurons and move the mouse accordingly. Most of that work is done by the brain anyhow.

Corneal/Retinal scanner.

Same as the HUD targeting system on the Apache!

Regards,

James

[christopher_wolf]

The best solution to all of this is a mouse that can pick up and understand signals from human neurons and move the mouse accordingly. Most of that work is done by the brain anyhow.

Corneal/Retinal scanner.

Same as the HUD targeting system on the Apache!

Regards,

James

Really? I used to think that is was a scope-mount on the helmet and the targeting system was slaved to the direction the pilot is looking via a positional sensor setup that monitors the helmet.

They also have mice that track the apex of your eyeballs and use events like prolonged blinks to signal clicks and such.

I still want as direct a connection as possible, say a sensor array pickup along the major nerves in your arm worm like a bracelet. Eventually, both the brain and the computer learn to interpolate and modulate the signals in such a way as to allow fine control. They have already done stuff like this with monkeys; one group even managed to get a rat brain to interface with a flight simulator and fly an F-22 perfectly level as if the rat brain acted as a mini-control system to keep the Raptor flying straight.