T60 vs Macbook

[zixy_tris]

Apple recently launched new MAcbook 13.3 inch which you can buy for under $1000.

However I recently bought 2623D6U. I was wondering was it a good choice. I know thinkpad have some advantages while MAc has other. But still I just wanted to know other opinions before I return my laptop or plan to keep it.

[Bemps]

The macbook has no express card slot or pc I II slot and only two usb ports. Boot camp seems to work ok, but I wouldn't trust it just yet if windows is a big front runner in your decision. My I ask where you found your 2623d6u for that price? The best price I find online is at costcentral for $1442 + free shipping.

[christopher_wolf]

I would go ahead and keep the T60; I can't see any reason, unless you really need OS X and other Apple-only things, to get a Mecbook instead...Also, there is a difference in the form factor, the Macbook doesn't have a swappable bay or a trackpoint either.

[foodle]

Apple recently launched new MAcbook 13.3 inch which you can buy for under $1000.

Even the lowest priced model is over $1K. So that's not quite right.

As for whether you made a good choice going with the T60, only you can answer that. What do you do with the machine? Does the MacBook or T60 do a better job at that?

[archer6]

Apple recently launched new MAcbook 13.3 inch

If you read the reports, they are having overheating problems worse than the MacBook Pro. In addition, it gets so hot that the computer crashes & shuts down completely. I think they rushed it to market.

MacBook vs. Thinkpad = No contest

ThinkPad wins hands down.

[viper11885]

Another thing not yet mentioned is that the Macbook only offers integrated graphics.

On the T60, you have several discrete graphic cards to choose from.

I had the same dillema as you. I chose the T60 particularly because of its proven quality and discrete graphics card.

So far, I am very happy with the T60 after spending only a couple of days with it.

The only thing that I miss on the Macbook is the opportunity to learn and use a new OS.

[christopher_wolf]

Apple recently launched new MAcbook 13.3 inch

If you read the reports, they are having overheating problems worse than the MacBook Pro. In addition, it gets so hot that the computer crashes & shuts down completely. I think they rushed it to market.

MacBook vs. Thinkpad = No contest

ThinkPad wins hands down.

That's bad; seriously, it is kinda OK if it runs hot. But random crashes and shutdowns due to heat? That is bad...

I will look further into those and see what information presents itself.

viper11885;

Believe me, there are many further OSes you can load and learn on your Thinkpad, OS X included; BSD, Plan 9, BeOS, Vista Builds, etc...

In fact, right now I am looking for a working DEMOS image; it was derived from BSD by the Soviets and used to run on PDP-11 clones but survived a good deal into the BSD releases; if anybody knows where I could find an image, well...PM me!

[archer6]

Here is the link to the MacBook review, that talks about the heat, crashing and the result - shutting down and refusing to reboot. It also includes a picture of the MacBook sitting on the air conditioning unit in the reviewers hotel room, in an effort to allow it to "recover" from from just 30 minutes of use.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... ore+Duo%29

I am so glad that I hung on to my Titanium PowerBook, works flawlessly and quite cool too.

Archer6

[zixy_tris]

Guys,
Thanks a lot for your inputs. Actually I am a PC guy and I hate Mac single click. However after apple boot camp everyone was saying getting a Macbook is you get best of both worlds. Apple quality and WinXP. Moreover Apple notebooks are better style then Thinkpads.

Anyways based on the review I will keep my thinkpad. I know they are lot of problem with MAcbook Pro for overheating and dont know what will happen with Macbook.

[Puppy]

MacBook - eh, where is the keyboard ?

[rocketman]

Just to mention a couple of things. First Boot Camp works fine. I beleive the only issue running Windows XP on the new MacBook is you won't be able to use the iSight camera as there are no Windows drivers available yet. With the MacBook Pro the backlit keyboard doesn't work either for the same reason.
That MacBook review on NotebookReview.com is most probably on a defective machine.
I used a black MacBook the other day and it feels built like a tank and even though the keyboard looks different it is very comfortable.
The new MacBook has a new feature, if you click while you’ve got two fingers on the trackpad the button becomes a control-click/right-click button, which is a nice solution compared to having to hold down the Control key while clicking. Oh, and the new magnetic closure is just terrific, it holds the lid down nice and snug.

[foodle]

I would think that a fairer comparison on the Apple side to the T60 would be the 15" MacBook Pro. Both have dedicated graphics, carry a price premium, and are targetted as a more professional class of user.

The MacBook is probably targetted at the same market as the Z61t. Wide screen. Affordable price. Integrated graphics.

Personally, I'm considering a black MacBook ($150 price premium be darn, it's cool looking!). I do prefer Mac OS X to Windows, except for the fact that there aren't that many Universal apps right now (notably Photoshop and MS Office are not Universal).

P.S. You should remove the EPP price before the moderators yell at you.

[Army Chief]

Christopher brought up an excellent point that is worth expanding upon just briefly: no matter how exceptional the new Macs are (and I think we can all agree that the quality of these machines has a natural appeal to any ThinkPad owner), they lack one of the ThinkPad's most enduring and endearing attributes: TrackPoint.

Why the pointing stick hasn't become an essential piece of equipment on every modern notebook computer is beyond me, save perhaps for the fact that no one has ever gotten the technology quite as right as IBM has. Even in times where, over the years, I may have been tempted to stray from Big Blue, I could never bring myself to do it. Looking back, these decision points all had one thing in common, and that thing was the excellent TrackPoint system common throughout the ThinkPad line.

I'll be honest here: in light of the Lenovo acquisition, I did give a lot of consideration to making the switch to a MacBook Pro. I went well beyond the point of reading the reviews and very nearly pulled the trigger until -- you guessed it -- TrackPoint tipped the scales back decisively toward the T60. That may sound silly, but so be it.

The "little eraser head that could" may not be for everyone, but I've come to realize that it figures heavily into my preferences, and no one beats IBM/Lenovo in this game. Net result? I'm typing this on yet another ThinkPad.

The MBP is, without a doubt, a beauty to behold, but the T60 is a joy to actually use. In the end, I didn't find it such a difficult choice, after all.

[undecided]

I'm another Wintel user who is considering making the switch. I currently have a 3-year old Dell 600m which is starting to flake out (my touchpad randomly freaks out and locks up).

I can get a T60 with the 1.66GHz Duo core, 1400x1024 (SXGA+), 512 MB and 80G for about the same price as a 13.3" MacBook with the 1.83GHz Duo core, 512MB and 80G. The Mac also includes Firewire and the iSight which I like but aren't must haves.

My primary uses of the machine:

1. Surfing the web.
2. Running Excel - I run fairly complex models and a fast machine would definitely save me some time. I also use a proprietary application developed in .net. Would that run on a Mac?
3. I might do some code development (for models that need the speed that C/C++ offers) to link back to my Excel models.
4. Editing home video.

I was all set on the T60 until I checked out the MacBook on apple.com. With Office, Boot Camp and the ability to use the more Linux/BSD-like development tools the MacBook looks really attractive.

Admittedly this board is probably biased towards the T60, but I'd like to get the opinions of some of the more laptop-savvy folks on this board!

[jaybert]

undecided, you should edit the EPP price, the admins here are pretty strict about posting that info.

[Geoff_AZ]

Here is the link to the MacBook review, that talks about the heat, crashing and the result - shutting down and refusing to reboot. It also includes a picture of the MacBook sitting on the air conditioning unit in the reviewers hotel room, in an effort to allow it to "recover" from from just 30 minutes of use.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... ore+Duo%29

I am so glad that I hung on to my Titanium PowerBook, works flawlessly and quite cool too.

Archer6

I've been reading some of the Mac sites and some people think Apple is applying way to much CPU heatsink compound--just glopping it on. With the correct amount, people have seen vast improvements in the cooling of MacBook Pros. I think there's already been a MacBook disassembled that seems to have excess heatsink compound as well. If this is the cause, it's a shame Apple lets a good machine be compromised by shoddy assembly.

Sources:
http://www.staind-online.com/MBP/Site/M ... 20Pro.html
http://snipurl.com/qq2b (Something Awful Forums)

[archer6]

I'll be honest here: in light of the Lenovo acquisition, I did give a lot of consideration to making the switch to a MacBook Pro.

This was one of my concerns as well. The Lenovo acquisition caused some concern as to the future quality, reliability, support, etc.

I am very open minded and willing to consider all brands. In the past I have had several Toshiba, Dell, HP, Acer, Sony, etc. After those experiences it comes down to two that I like. ThinkPad & (formerly) PowerBook.

My preferences & likes are:
1) ThinkPad - TrackPoint, Keyboard, Display, Power & Speed, Reliability & Tech Support.
2) Apple - Great Design, OSX, Reliability of my Titanium G4

The problem I have with Apple is that I really like their laptops, but I'm quite disappointed with the serious overheating & whining issues they are having with both the MacBook & MacBook Pro. Shipping a new product with problems this major paints a very bleak picture of Apple's priorities. Customer satisfaction?

I was very close to purchasing a MacBook Pro and still sit on the fence about that. Yet just the other day I called Apple tech support & asked if the problems had been resolved they assured me the new shipping units were fine. Based on that info a friend purchased a MacBook Pro from their online store and it arrived yesterday. The first hour of usage it became so hot that it shut down! Nothing we tried could revive it. After an hour of cooling down, it booted and ran for exactly 18 minutes before repeating the same major crash. A very lengthy call to Apple tech support resulted in the computer being sent back for "repair".

I do commend Lenovo for allowing a 30 period after date of purchase to return it for a new one, no questions asked. With Apple it's "tough luck - you own it".

Considering I must have a computer that I can count on for work, for now I will not "Switch" but I would like to buy the new MacBook Pro if they would only get it right.

[BudC]

I recently purchased a T60 2007-76U. The TP has performed flawlessly. It runs very cool, connects to my home network every time, has a great keyboard and display and I could not be happier.

I recently bought my wife an iMac and really wanted to get myself an Apple laptop. I was even willing to pay the much higher price for an equivalent MBP but with all the problems they have had, I bought the Thinkpad. I'm certainly glad I did.

I can't believe that there is a more robust laptop in existance. Besides, Lenovo has a 30 day, no questions asked return policy with no restocking fee.

Apple gives you 14 days, hassles you if you want to return it and charges you a restocking fee.

Get the Thinkpad. You can always return it (although I can't imagine why you would).

[filter]

I initially brought a T60P, which I returned, because the fan was on way too often and the GPU would easily reach over 65 degrees when idleing.
Three days ago I recieved a 17" Macbook pro. Its a great machine but I'm going to return in on monday. Why? First: MacOS stinks. It doesn't let me decide anything. I can't customize the way I want it to. Heck I even have to download a third party software to get it to show system and hidden files. Second: The keyboard SUCKS! big time. To anyone who ever used a thinkpad for a longer while its pure horror. Its small and flimsy and it doesnt even have a delete button (which I can emulate with the FN key...). The trackpad sucks as well. Its not sunken into the case. Meaning, my finger doesn't know where the pad ends and where it begins. Its absolutely not precise as well. It always overshoots for about 1/10th for a second and thus driving me insane. The rest of the MBPro is like a dream. The casing is very robust, the display brilliant (even compared to flexview UXGA+) it has firewire 800, Expresscard 34 and a DVI port. Its a shame that IBM didn't include that.
So here I am now after trying out two top notch machines and not being satisfied with neither of them. Any advice? I definetly need a laptop until the 16th of August, since I'm moving to Japan at that time and need to take my Computer with me. Should I just wait for two months and see whether there are any price drops? I don't need the Laptop right now. So I'd be fine, waiting another two months. The T60p was a very very good machine. It was just the fan that was driving me mad. Is there anyone here, using fancontrol and keeping your GPU at 70degrees idle just to eliminate the noise?

[archer6]

I initially brought a T60P, which I returned, because the fan was on way too often and the GPU would easily reach over 65 degrees when idleing.
Three days ago I recieved a 17" Macbook pro. Its a great machine but I'm going to return in on monday.
So here I am now after trying out two top notch machines and not being satisfied with neither of them. Any advice?
The T60p was a very very good machine. It was just the fan that was driving me mad. Is there anyone here, using fancontrol and keeping your GPU at 70degrees idle just to eliminate the noise?

I believe that while in some cases (like yours) there are fan issues. Some of the complaints here with all due respect, may be from people that are simply obsessed with any noise. That said, here is my personal experience. In my company we have 50+ new T60/60p models.
Just 2 had the fan issue in the beginning and I sent those back. The replacements as well as all the others are fine. Quiet and cool. Several of us use our ThinkPads in extremely quiet environments so we would certainly notice the noise. Especially myself as I'm one of those described above that admittedly can be obssesed over minor things.

We had T43 models before I bought 60's for everyone and the T43 did not have the fan issue that I read about here. While I have years of excellent experience with the ThinkPads that we deploy here in the company, I'm also a Mac fan. I have been staying close to the MBP rollout and resultant issues. I am disgusted with the overheating issues with the MBP as well as the New MacBook. I have a friend who just received his MacBook and within the first hour of operation it got so hot that it crashed completely, nothing would revive it until it sat cooling for an hour. Then we booted up and with just 20 minutes, same thing.

It's my impression that in the case of the macs they simply brought them to market to quickly. As much as I would really like to have a MBP, I'm going to wait until Apple 1) admits there is a problem 2) does something about it.

My thought regarding your situatioin is: Give ThinkPad another try, you may be pleasantly surprized and if not at least there is the 30 no hassle return policy. So you cannot lose. This is where Apple is losing as I would buy one, but if it's a bad one Apples well known policy is "tough luck-you own it".

An example of that is another friend of mine went to the Apple store last week, purchased a MBP. Took it out of the box in the store booted it up and it crashed over and over. Finally the "genius" got it up and running only to discover it was so hot that it burned the cardboad box it was sitting on! So what did they do for him? Yes....NOTHING...they told him to send it in and get it repaired! And this came from the Store Manager!

[filter]

Well the question for me is whether it would be wise to wait for another month or two and see if Lenovo turns up a T61 or the prices for the T60 will drop... I am quite obsessed about noise. Its a big issue for me and I'm often working in very quiet environments. The T60p HDD has also been obscenly loud, compared to the one built into the MBPro. When placed on my wooden desk, its noise would somehow be amplified by the table and vibrate very slightly. If it just werent for the sucky keyboard and trackpad, I'd stay with the MBPro. The heat isn't really an issue in newer builds and I don't bother, as long as it stays silent.
Can by any chance anyone maybe recommend a laptop thats virtually silent?

[archer6]

Can by any chance anyone maybe recommend a laptop thats virtually silent?

All of mine are when they're off

Kidding aside, I have one of the last Titanium G4 PowerBooks (Nov 2002) and it's dead quiet. The next one on the list is a toss up between my 2005 Aluminum PowerBook and my T60 that's just 2 months old.

In my office (I supply the ThinkPads) people have all different brands for personal use and none of the others are very quiet.

If you find one that is perfectly quiet check to see if it's up and running Then let us know what it is.

[foodle]

Can by any chance anyone maybe recommend a laptop thats virtually silent?

There are some laptops that are fanless. The Fujitsu P7120 comes to mind, but that's an ultraportable with fairly modest specs. The Panasonic W4 and T4 are also fanless.

Personally, I'm not very sensitive to noise in my machines. I usually add fans to my desktops .

[kulivontot]

The way I see it is this:
If you buy a Thinkpad, you are looking for quality. You may pay more, it might not be flashy or the craziest new hardware out there, but it will work. Period. Yes, there's a lot of buzz about MacBooks and MacBookPros, but look at some of the problems they're having: Overheating to the point that the system crashes. Overheating to the point that it physically burns your lap. The issue is so much of a problem that apple now states in their manuals that it is not recommended for use on your lap. These types of issues are unacceptable, especially for the price premium that thinkpad holds. Considering that MBP's cost the same or more than a T60, I don't think I would even consider it.
Meanwhile, on the Thinkpad front, just look at the forums for the complaints people are having with their machines:

"I wanted a Samsung display not Hydis" - RETURNED & REPLACED
"It was too big and I wanted a 14.1" screen" - RETURNED & REPLACED
"The fan was too noisy, it wasn't completely silent" - RETURNED

In comparison, I think these types of problems are almost laughable when compared to a notebook that crashes, overheats and burns the user as a result a design flaw.
Not that Apple makes TERRIBLE notebooks, there are definitely worse out there (HP/Compaq comes to mind). I'm just saying, there are cases of these failures with apple notebooks, and it's common enough for it to have been noted by reviewers and consumers alike. Personally, if there is even a chance for instability in a laptop due to the hardware design, and it has been commonly noted in laptop communities, I would not consider it as an option because stability and usability are the #1 priorities for me.

[bessel]

Yeah I guess to some extent we the TP users are spoiled. I am about to ask for a NMB keyboad any way... Not going to request a Samsung LCD though, that sounds too much to me... Just when you know there are better options out there, you can't stop thinking about it. I do recommend lenovo not to publish their FRU # or different suppliers info on line so no fuss on both side.

[astro]

Three days ago I recieved a 17" Macbook pro...
... The trackpad sucks as well. Its not sunken into the case. Meaning, my finger doesn't know where the pad ends and where it begins. Its absolutely not precise as well. It always overshoots for about 1/10th for a second and thus driving me insane.

This is a very good point that I had completely forgotten about.

You CANNOT turn off mouse acceleration in MacOSX. You can't even get a little "hack" utility to turn it off. This was the single most frustrating thing about the iBook G4 that i had.

[archer6]

Just read a very credible report that the new MacBook (Not MacBook Pro) is running at 82C which is 180 degrees F

Then there was also the comment about the top of the line MacBook in the black color. The finish has been flaking off!

The glossy screen can be annoying under any direct lighting. Then there is the issue of the integrated graphics siphoning off system RAM, which is much slower than a dedicated graphics card.

Nice Eh? Now just how bad is your ThinkPad...

Archer6

[archer6]

Think your ThinkPad runs hot?... check out this headline:

"Here's the Censored Pics of Torched MacBook Power Connector"

http://blog.wired.com/cultofmac/index.b ... id=1437672

Simply Amazing, MacBook & MacBook Pro models woes go on and on.

No wonder this blog is entitled "The Cult of Mac Blog" only cult members would put up with this and continue to buy the product.

Welcome to the world of the MacBook. Purchase one of our computers in "Kit Form". Bring it home, take it apart and redo the application of thermal cooling compound (sorry we did'nt have time to do it right when we built your computer).
Now that you have participated in the repairing and reassembly of your computer. Plug it in and ..... uh....oh wait... be careful of that mag safe connector, your carelessness could cause your computer to be torched!

We here at Apple wish you all the best

[filter]

Well it seems these things CAN happen with a MB or MBPro. My MBPro CPU Core temp reached up to 80 degrees while under full load. Its not bad at all. The outside casing is very warm but not what I'd call hot. The heat issues also seem to be resolved in the newer models. Some people report temperatures similar to T60.
However they are really really freaking quiet compared to any other Laptop. Why oh why can't I have a T60 with the noise of a MBPro? Anyone know at what intervals the Fan of the T60 would kick in if I'd keep it about 70 degrees idle (at GPU)?
Maybe I'll just go for a Sony...

[taphil]

It was actually a mysterious firmware update (SMC v1.0) that alleviated the heat problems. I say mysterious because Apple listed the firmware with few details on what it does (supposedly fixes boot problems with BootCamp) but actually does more than that. The update has made the fan spin 100% of the time the notebook is on, which is how things should be. In idle or at low CPU usage, the fans are so incredibly quiet that I have to put my ear so close to the keyboard that it touches it in order to barely hear the fan. The CPU temp dropped 5C for me, others report 10C, and the temp of the case is just about body temp, not at all an issue. At full load, the CPU and case temp have not been reduced, IME.

I think too much is made of the CPU temp that is reported everywhere. I couldn't care less as long as it is not so hot that it causes the CPU to throttle or shut down, both of which never happen on my MBP. (The MacBook, on the other hand, seems to have the former issue, which is pitiful if true.) However, it is the temperature of the bottom casing that I really care about, because it [is or was]* simply too hot to use on a lap, hence it's called a notebook instead of a laptop.

Just surfing the web on battery, the temperature is warm and acceptable. On AC and doing stuff at 25-50% load, it gets too warm to be comfortable. Beyond that, it's too hot to use on the lap.

I really do wish the MBP was always running as cool as my old T41 though. Heat was never an issue (and neither was anything else)!