T60 Design

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meditate2001 · #1 Post by **meditate2001** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:16 am

Seriously I think the design of the T60 is the biggest gobacksince the T2x-Series. Ok, I understand that Lenovo wants to go back from the IBM-colours blue, red and green, but that doesnt mean it has to look cheap like that.

- The surface(around touchpad and so) of the T60 looks way cheaper than the T4x.
- The colors at the Touchpad misses. Looks also so cheap. I know a noname notebook which is also black and looks like the t60. that costs 599 Euros !!!!
- The buttons of the audio, mute and power are MUCH too small. I mean at the T4x/T2x you could at least without looking pressing the buttons, now you HAVE to look. Horrible.
- The Blue Thinkvantage button is a horrible colour
- The Windows key. *******, it is senseless(you could also use strg and escape to open the startmenu, but so the alt key is not so small that it is hard to use also without looking. It is about useability, Lenovo !!!

Mod Edit: Watch the language!

Whats going on, Lenovo ? Whats up with the Designers ? How much are working still with you ? Is this the best what they come up with ? Why not changing the whole design-team ? I mean it is ok not so much to alter, because they (Tx-Series) originally look good but you are bringing them really down.

Have a look to the new AR Series from Sony:
http://www.learningcenter.sony.us/asset ... ar_series/

Now thats black, baby !

yves · #2 Post by **yves** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:03 pm

And the wEAKNESS of the USB2 ??

Have you notice how weak USB2 connectors they have used ?

I am affraid to break them and I am affraid to plug something

meditate2001 · #3 Post by **meditate2001** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:27 pm

Jee.., yes, you have to be very careful with that.

Also the Fan is soooo loud. And it seems that the controlling values are so bad, even if my cpu load is very low it is still working always over 3000 rpm and only cold air is coming out. thank god we have fan control util.
But in first line, ISNT THERE ANY FAN which is quiter than these which are used in the thinkpads ? i mean we have so much technology but a quit fan is too much, or what ?

#4 Post by **archer6** » Sun May 21, 2006 1:34 pm

meditate2001 wrote:Seriously I think the design of the T60 is the biggest gobacksince the T2x-Series.

I respect that this is simply personal opinion. Having used ThinkPads for years, I was initially unhappy with the new design until I used my new 60 series for while. Now I have grown accustomed to the new look of the touchpad, mouse buttons, etc and I'm really happy with them. In addition, the primary use of my computers is for work and therefore design is secondary to function and that is where the new ThinkPads shine.

meditate2001 wrote:Have a look to the new AR Series from Sony

I agree that Sony's design is absolutely fantastic. So much, that it's influenced me to buy a few of their latops.

But that is where it ends. The have really poor keyboards, and many other issues. The worst of which is terrible technical support. So while fun to look at, they do not even factor in as a solid reliable computer that one can count on in a business environment.

Additionally, the Sony corp is famous for making their products obsolete within a very short period of time. An example of this is I have a VAIO SRX which is about 5 years old. It's the best VAIO model I've had and the only one which did'nt fail. It's smaller than my X60, just 2.2 lbs. Yet they were made obsolete in just 6 months. I also have a 505 series which was one of their longest running series only to be killed off (probably because they were so successful

)

ThinkPads advantage is the fact that ever since the introduction of the first T series they have stayed consistent with the form factor and model. Instead of recreating the wheel.

I have owned every T model, put a tremendous amount of time on them, and not one has let me down. Not one has had any truly serious problems. Since I use a laptop as my main computer I cannot imagine not having a ThinkPad.

yves · #5 Post by **yves** » Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Same thing for me since 1992

I use ThinkPads since 1992

meditate2001 · #6 Post by **meditate2001** » Sun May 21, 2006 2:36 pm

Dont get me wrong, I absolutly like the Thinkpads, my first one was a T20 several years ago and until than i only bought me the t-series and I am satisfied. Also I had other notebooks from different companies but not one ever came close to the thinkpads.

not one. and i didnt even think about buying another brand as i ordered my t60.

BUT I think in the last years, especially with the new T60 the design of the ibm/lenovo products really falls down. Of course Notebooks are to work, but still a good design belongs to a good product. period. and it has to be designed anyway, so why not doing good than?
Of course this is my personal opinion but everyone I ask agrees with me saying that the designs getting worse.

<<to function and that is where the new ThinkPads shine.
what functions ? the technique inside ? seriously, today isnt a big difference anymore if you buy yourself a sony, samsung, toshiba or ibm; same chipsets, same cpus, same graphic cpus....and the optical drives, soundcards, touchpads, network adapter etc.. they are all from the same companys anyway. And I think this was always a part where ibm was a bit late, including the latest technology, for example with the graphic cards; the t60(exp.t60p) has the x1300/x1400 which are low class Cards !!! (x1600 is mid class, x1800 is up class) but ok, this is acceptable coz it is business machines, but the design ?

i mean didnt wanted lenovo to buy the pc/notebooks to sell them more than ibm ? to make them more attractive to the public ?

more new costumers you dont get with a cheap design in times where the innerlife of notebooks gets more the same anyway...

pphilipko · #7 Post by **pphilipko** » Sun May 21, 2006 5:31 pm

meditate2001 wrote:Dont get me wrong, I absolutly like the Thinkpads, my first one was a T20 several years ago and until than i only bought me the t-series and I am satisfied. Also I had other notebooks from different companies but not one ever came close to the thinkpads.

not one. and i didnt even think about buying another brand as i ordered my t60.

BUT I think in the last years, especially with the new T60 the design of the ibm/lenovo products really falls down. Of course Notebooks are to work, but still a good design belongs to a good product. period. and it has to be designed anyway, so why not doing good than?
Of course this is my personal opinion but everyone I ask agrees with me saying that the designs getting worse.

<<to function and that is where the new ThinkPads shine.
what functions ? the technique inside ? seriously, today isnt a big difference anymore if you buy yourself a sony, samsung, toshiba or ibm; same chipsets, same cpus, same graphic cpus....and the optical drives, soundcards, touchpads, network adapter etc.. they are all from the same companys anyway. And I think this was always a part where ibm was a bit late, including the latest technology, for example with the graphic cards; the t60(exp.t60p) has the x1300/x1400 which are low class Cards !!! (x1600 is mid class, x1800 is up class) but ok, this is acceptable coz it is business machines, but the design ?

i mean didnt wanted lenovo to buy the pc/notebooks to sell them more than ibm ? to make them more attractive to the public ?

more new costumers you dont get with a cheap design in times where the innerlife of notebooks gets more the same anyway...

Everyone agrees with you that the design is getting worse?! I disagree.

If you don't like the thinkpads anymore, why come to a thinkpad-biased message board to bash and complain?

gunston · #8 Post by **gunston** » Sun May 21, 2006 6:23 pm

well,
i totally agreed with you,
my cousin just bought a T60.
design looks cheaper than mine one, mediocre battery life and other button design. i.e. thinkvantage blue button, volume button..

i started to use my thinkpad on 1998.

foodle · #9 Post by **foodle** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:04 pm

No offense, but your complaints seem very superficial. The button colors are not to your liking?!? Don't know about you, but I use my machine for work. And that it does, very well. I really couldn't care less if there's a red stripe on the trackpad buttons, what the shape/color of the "ThinkVantage" button is, etc. These are very minor issues compared to the problem that the MacBook(Pro) are facing.

#10 Post by **archer6** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:15 pm

foodle wrote:No offense, but your complaints seem very superficial. The button colors are not to your liking?!? Don't know about you, but I use my machine for work. And that it does, very well. I really couldn't care less if there's a red stripe on the trackpad buttons, what the shape/color of the "ThinkVantage" button is, etc. These are very minor issues compared to the problem that the MacBook(Pro) are facing.

Well Said

rocketman · #11 Post by **rocketman** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:06 pm

archer6 wrote:the Sony corp is famous for making their products obsolete within a very short period of time. An example of this is I have a VAIO SRX which is about 5 years old. It's the best VAIO model I've had and the only one which did'nt fail. It's smaller than my X60, just 2.2 lbs. Yet they were made obsolete in just 6 months. I also have a 505 series which was one of their longest running series only to be killed off (probably because they were so successful )

I'm just curious what you mean by "obsolete" in 6 months. Do you mean that Sony upgraded the components, changed the model completely? As far as I know almost all PC's are upgrade/changed within 6 months or less including Thinkpads.

Website · #12 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:23 pm

rocketman wrote:
archer6 wrote:the Sony corp is famous for making their products obsolete within a very short period of time. An example of this is I have a VAIO SRX which is about 5 years old. It's the best VAIO model I've had and the only one which did'nt fail. It's smaller than my X60, just 2.2 lbs. Yet they were made obsolete in just 6 months. I also have a 505 series which was one of their longest running series only to be killed off (probably because they were so successful )
I'm just curious what you mean by "obsolete" in 6 months. Do you mean that Sony upgraded the components, changed the model completely? As far as I know almost all PC's are upgrade/changed within 6 months or less including Thinkpads.

I believe what archer means is that Sony and other completely abandon some of their systems almost completely after a matter of about 6 months. IBM/Lenovo continues to offer support and accessories for LONG after the system's demise. For example, i can still buy TP600 batteries from IBM, as well as many other parts. I was just working on a 2 year old Dell for someone. The LCD and the keyboard needed to be replaced. I couldn't get the keyboard from Dell. I tracked down the LCD elsewhere, so I cannot state for certain that I couldn't have gotten the LCD from Dell.

#13 Post by **archer6** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:37 am

rocketman wrote:
archer6 wrote:the Sony corp is famous for making their products obsolete within a very short period of time. An example of this is I have a VAIO SRX which is about 5 years old. It's the best VAIO model I've had and the only one which did'nt fail. It's smaller than my X60, just 2.2 lbs. Yet they were made obsolete in just 6 months. I also have a 505 series which was one of their longest running series only to be killed off (probably because they were so successful )
I'm just curious what you mean by "obsolete" in 6 months. Do you mean that Sony upgraded the components, changed the model completely? As far as I know almost all PC's are upgrade/changed within 6 months or less including Thinkpads.

I mean abandoned the model & form factor completely. It has been my observation that in nearly every case (at least 70%) of Sony VAIO models are not improved or upgraded, they are killed off & replaced by a completely different model. While it's true that PC technology moves very rapidly, Sony is the worst at bringing out a new model, then discontinuing it just as rapidly. A very recent example is the all new, thin & light 100% carbon fiber model that was posted on their web site for a month or so with the option to "preorder" only to watch it disappear from the site altogether. A few sources such as CNET, PC Mag, etc noticed and first reported the new model, then later offered the same observation about it's disappearance. A friend of mine preordered one, and once he noticed it was no longer on the site he called Sony. They responded by offering some double talk and shortly thereafter a check appeared for the amount they had charged his credit card! (true story).

This is what they are rarely used in a business environment. Corporations and large enterprise customers want a computer that represents a good investment and will perform reliably, be supported properly, and provide a trusted platform. A computer that has a history of stability, an established model. Sony does not qualify in any of these areas. They are more like a consumer electronics product subject to the whims of the engineers and of the uneducated public. A large part of the following stems from the strength of the Sony brand name. Not the proven functionality or reliability of the product. I believe that because Sony is such a huge company that perhaps the biggest challenge they face is communication and understanding the market here in the US.

meditate2001 · #14 Post by **meditate2001** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:51 am

pphilipko wrote: If you don't like the thinkpads anymore, why come to a thinkpad-biased message board to bash and complain?

If you have read my post carefully you would know that i like the thinkpads. I just think the design gets worse. So why shouldnt I say so ? Thats bashing to you ? So here is no complain allowed or what are you talking about ? relax dude...

meditate2001 · #15 Post by **meditate2001** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:59 am

foodle wrote:No offense, but your complaints seem very superficial. The button colors are not to your liking?!? Don't know about you, but I use my machine for work. And that it does, very well. I really couldn't care less if there's a red stripe on the trackpad buttons, what the shape/color of the "ThinkVantage" button is, etc. These are very minor issues compared to the problem that the MacBook(Pro) are facing.

Ok it is not a biggie the colours of the buttons, but this is still a part of the design. and it gets a biggie for me as i am musician and i am pressing the audio controls a lot, normaly on a t4x i can press them blind, now i always have to look. thats annoying and costs time. and for what ? that it looks worse....

christopher_wolf · #16 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:02 am

Meditate, so to speak, even....

I actually don't think the design of the ThinkPads have gotten worse; there are some who say it got worse after the T20.

Although the talk of "worse" is, by now, subjective at best. I know quite a few people who are just happy to have a Thinkpad and not get stuck with a Dell or some such. True, Thinkpads are premium laptops and come with such for a pricetag, but keep in mind that such is the beast of the market as to render certain forces *very* powerful when it comes to the design of systems such as laptops. Widescreen, those little LCDs and buttons on the front that control the CD player (I would kill myself before using something like that), etc. Some have caught on and generated a shift in the design space of long-running brands (Widescreen and the Thinkpad Z Series) and some haven't (The aforementioned little CD player LCD screen for one, thankfully).

astro · #17 Post by **astro** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:16 am

What is up with all this "ThinkPad designer" bashing? I think a previous poster said something along the same lines, but these little aesthetic changes you have raised are miniscule, IMHO. I would personally rather that a ThinkPad designer spent more time developing patentable technologies like laptop rollcages and HDD shock protection (and guess what? The other mfgs are all copying this now...) than worry about whether there are red and blue stripes on the trackpoint.

It is a testament to the engineering and focus of "ThinkPad designers" that these (IMHO) petty foibles are all we have to complain about on this forum.

From the keyboard of his lovely, lovely new T60...
Jason.

snife · #18 Post by **snife** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:38 am

Gotta agree with astro, the keyboards, the ultrabay options, the aps system are all examples of good design that will add to the usage experience of the machine every day.

Aesthetics are always a personal thing and, while it never really bothered me anyway, the more I use a T60 the more i like the silver bits and lack of colour on the trackpoint buttons. Again its a personal thing, but I never saw anything wrong with the T20 design, i wasn't a fan of the T30 but since T40 I think they are looking better than ever and if you like the T40 design then I cannot comprehend why you wouldn't like the T60 design other than a few very minor changes.

The volume buttons are actually easier to press imho but i do find the re-order of them a bit puzzling as I cannot think of a reason behind doing this.

Its easy for Sony to make nice looking notebooks as they pay no attention to consistency and as for the one that was linked to - it looks like a fingerprint magnet to me which is not something I want from something I use everyday - my PSP looked lovely until i touched it.

foodle · #19 Post by **foodle** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:45 am

meditate2001 wrote:Ok it is not a biggie the colours of the buttons, but this is still a part of the design. and it gets a biggie for me as i am musician and i am pressing the audio controls a lot, normaly on a t4x i can press them blind, now i always have to look. thats annoying and costs time. and for what ? that it looks worse....

How long have you had your T60? Are you sure this isn't just that you're used to your T4x and just haven't adjusted to the new button layout/size? It's not like the buttons are microscopic. They're actually reasonably sized and there are only 3 of them total. So it doesn't seem that hard to remember the ordering. If the button size/placement is really an issue, you could always remap three of function keys to do the same thing.

#20 Post by **archer6** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:50 am

astro wrote:What is up with all this "ThinkPad designer" bashing? I would personally rather that a ThinkPad designer spent more time developing patentable technologies like laptop rollcages and HDD shock protection (and guess what? The other mfgs are all copying this now...) than worry about whether there are red and blue stripes on the trackpoint.

It is a testament to the engineering and focus of "ThinkPad designers" that these (IMHO) petty foibles are all we have to complain about on this forum.

From the keyboard of his lovely, lovely new T60...
Jason.

Well Said

I feel the same way, the new _60_ series are really great laptops. I for one, am very satisfied and quite pleased with the upgrades and (IMHO) improvements.

One look at the other forums and user experiences with the various other brands reveals laptops with (truly) "serious problems". I'm sure those people would gladly switch places with us, and be happy to have a new ThinkPad.

From the keyboard of my lovely new Z, no wait... umm... X, no wait... duh... T60

Archer6

(yes I know....I told you they were great & I spoiled myself this time around....)

heiss · #21 Post by **heiss** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:02 am

Yeah, I kind of understand your complaints. I do agree they look cheaper. But do you think they were BUILT cheaper? I think the built quality of T60 is superb, at least better than T4x. I'll use this laptop for a long time; for me built quality is much important. To be sure, it would have been better to get both of them--traditional design built in this way.

The point is that there are many brighter sides of getting T60. I love my one so.

#22 Post by **archer6** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:22 am

heiss wrote:But do you think they were BUILT cheaper?
The point is that there are many brighter sides of getting T60. I love my one so.

When I upgraded the memory on my T60 I removed not only the palm rest, but the keyboard as well. Then I removed the keyboard on both my T42, & T43 models just so i could put them side by side with the T60 and compare. That proved very interesting. From my observation I believe the internal component quality and assembly quality is every bit as good if not better than that of the previous models.

Of all the earlier models I have had, the T42 was one of my favorites. I can now say that my T60 (X60s, & Z60m) are the new favorites. In addition, I have had them long enough now and put enough time on each of them to rate them as the best of the ThinkPads I have owned and used for over the years.

snife · #23 Post by **snife** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:48 am

archer6 wrote:
heiss wrote:But do you think they were BUILT cheaper?
The point is that there are many brighter sides of getting T60. I love my one so.
When I upgraded the memory on my T60 I removed not only the palm rest, but the keyboard as well. Then I removed the keyboard on both my T42, & T43 models just so i could put them side by side with the T60 and compare. That proved very interesting. From my observation I believe the internal component quality and assembly quality is every bit as good if not better than that of the previous models.

Of all the earlier models I have had, the T42 was one of my favorites. I can now say that my T60 (X60s, & Z60m) are the new favorites. In addition, I have had them long enough now and put enough time on each of them to rate them as the best of the ThinkPads I have owned and used for over the years.

Yeah archer6, the keyboard should be better quality - i believe that it was also improved so that the keys could be more easily reattached if they get knocked off which should help a lot of people who had missing keys on previous machines.

foodle · #24 Post by **foodle** » Mon May 22, 2006 1:23 pm

Speaking of build quality between the T4x and the T60, I'm on the side of the T60 and its roll cage as my beloved T41p recently died due to the dreaded motherboard (oh, excuse me ... planar) flex issue. I heard that the T60's not only have the roll cage for better stiffness, but have some play between the case and motherboard (floating ribs?) so that even if the case flexes, the motherboard is not stressed.

astro · #25 Post by **astro** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:02 am

snife wrote:Yeah archer6, the keyboard should be better quality - i believe that it was also improved so that the keys could be more easily reattached if they get knocked off which should help a lot of people who had missing keys on previous machines.

Really? I only noticed in the last hour or so that the "H" key is a little crooked on my keyboard. Not bad enough that it is unusable or anything (I only just noticed and I have been using it since yesterday) -- but enough to make me want to try and fix it...

How does one go about removing the keys and refitting them?

#26 Post by **archer6** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:37 am

snife wrote:the keyboard should be better quality - i believe that it was also improved so that the keys could be more easily reattached if they get knocked off which should help a lot of people who had missing keys on previous machines.

Over the years in my company we have used hundreds of ThinkPads and I have never, ever seen missing keys.

I can only imagine that if indeed there were a lot of people with "missing & knocked off keys" that was the result of a great deal of abuse.

snife · #27 Post by **snife** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:56 am

archer6 wrote:
snife wrote:the keyboard should be better quality - i believe that it was also improved so that the keys could be more easily reattached if they get knocked off which should help a lot of people who had missing keys on previous machines.
Over the years in my company we have used hundreds of ThinkPads and I have never, ever seen missing keys.

I can only imagine that if indeed there were a lot of people with "missing & knocked off keys" that was the result of a great deal of abuse.

most definitely - i don't think they ever just fall off of their own accord.

astro - i don't think there is an official process and I'm not really recommending that you pull any keys off but I can quite easily pull the keys of a T60 keyboard by just levering them up from the backside and they pop back on just with a press down again.

yao · #28 Post by **yao** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:47 am

Dear archer6

Please do not take this as offense, it is just a curious question from me.
I am truly astounded by the volume of your posts regarding the superior quality all the 60's. It is astonishing to see such volume of praise you put in every remote corner of this forum regarding all the 60's.

I am years long user of many different IBM Thinkpads, almost all of them I felt were superior to the competition in areas I was using them, and it is hard for me to comprehend where could all your glorification of all the Lenovo 60 series stem from - the latest Lenovo Thinkpads sadly remind me of some poor imitations, I try to deal with it, accept it, look for a positive points such as the very low price, processing power and speed, and I will still happily stay with the older thinkpads till they become completely obsolete. What I feel is, that not one of the older models from IBM that I used had such poor feel with them, there never was this untight, loose feeling of different parts such as I see in the 60's (I use X60 and testedthe T60 a lot before I went back to T40, I do not want to go to every little detail, but the cheap finish pops up to me from many parts and details as never before with any thinkpad.
So, such a volume of laudation you put on every corner of this forum regarding the latest models, their design and build quality strikes me when compared to my experience. Without having to look at the nicknames while reading threads allmost anywhere in this forum, your posts pops up like Lenovo advertisements of their latest 60's - do you consider some outstanding IBM models such as the 600's, 700's, or t40's during their prime, to come into believing that the new Lenovo 60's are such outstanding step in the direction of quality held by IBM for years? Or do you mainly base your good feel about the 60's on comparison with the non Thinkpad notebooks? In the later case I may agree that there still is something good to say, but taking into the account the development line of thinkpads I feel like leaving watching the last visible parts of Titanic.

Cordially

Yao

christopher_wolf · #29 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:57 pm

No, it is based on functionality, actually; I doubt it there are people here who simply like the latest models as they come out. If it works, it works; and that's the end of it.

I, for one, am not going to go complaining about how I liked to old models or what changed or how the quality went down, etc...To me, that is just useless whining;as thoughts they are fine, but it ends up useless as ever since the Thinkpads have always been, and always will be, business oriented machines. What matters when it comes down to the line is how well the job gets done. That said, Thinkpads (new or old) do this like no other system I have seen.

The older Thinkpad models are not perfect, nor are they that much better in most opinions as compared to what the T60 is used for. The build quality always varies from individual model to different Thinkpad. If one requires getting the Thinkpad that is right for the job, it doesn't end up being the 600 for a large render job with CAD or compiling massive amounts of code; somply doing that for nostalgia or because they were the "good old days" is of no sense and is not what the Thinkpads have been about; in fact, it may very well be the anti-thesis of what Thinkpads are about. It would be sad indeed to see auch an attitude take a hold as it amounts to, pretty much, shooting oneself in the foot when it comes to the real benefits of the Thinkpad.

If there is a problem with the newer Thinkpads that the older ones didn't have, I would like to see it; I have asked this many times and it ends up being something piddling or I get a gigantic, wandering essay about how somebody's favorite little bezel curve or corner rounding got taken out and how it spells the End as We Know It.

Lest we forget the old engineers' saying; form follows function.

yao · #30 Post by **yao** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:13 pm

I am recording engineer and my own biggest problem is the excessive sound emitting of X60 as well as T60, it cannot be used even with external sound card for my music purposes - it simply produces too much noise in silent room (it is too much even to take it to the silent library reading room as it bothers the other readers) and I tried dozens of methods to silent it - no way - so I had to return to t40 which is queitest of all thinkpads I ever had, even though much less powerfull for a music mastering purposes)
I posted a detailed description here

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=25132

The untight loose feeling of some parts especially of those that must move, and the ugly look of the design, colors etc.. is minor only if you feel the way you walk on, is nothing compared to where you will arrive (I am not of that opinion). I care to where I walk as much as I care about where I want to arrive. And using thinkpads untill the series 60, was always a beautifull walk to me, it made me truly enjoy all types of work I accomplished on it. Well, not all people are achievers, enjoying the functionality and aims only. Some like to enjoy the path as they walk it.

Cheers

Yao

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