Thinkpads Forum

No, you misunderstand my statement. I am not saying that having the fan off is illogical. I personally prefer that the fan is off. What I think is illogical is to simply say "the fan shouldn't be on because it is very very bad design, because it is battery draining". I disagree with this line of reasoning. I'll leave it at that.

I am sorry for misunderstanding. The fan must have driven me crazy I sincerely apologize.

drblue wrote:I am sorry for misunderstanding. The fan must have driven me crazy I sincerely apologize.

Nah, don't apologise mate -- these kind of misunderstandings happen all the time around here...

Cheers,
A.

drblue,

I think it's also quite possible that different fans (copies) make different amounts of noise. My memory is that just about every T43 I've worked with had a loud fan. I don't think they ran more than on a T42 necessarily, just that the fan had an acoustically poorer design.

There are many, though, that swear their T43s are quiet. I don't think hearing alone could make up the difference and I don't count my hearing as particularly exceptional anyway so I have to think that there are different fans in different T43s -- some that are intrinsically louder than others. This could be a difference in sourcing or it could be a variance in manufacturing.

So consider that perhaps getting your fan switched out would take care of the problem. I don't know if that's a CRUable item or not - can it be removed with the keyboard out? If so, I expect customer service would be happy to send you a new one to see if it sounds better.

I'll also second what astro said. Changing the fan control mode in power manager and applying the change can have an immediate and profound change in the operating level of the fan and power consumption. I've seen this when switching the mode, regardless of what I'm switching to or from. This doesn't seem to affect things of late, but when I first received my T60p the difference was obvious. Perhaps an update to the power manager changed the behavior.

Good luck in getting to a solution!

-darren

Dear Darrenf,

Thank you for your insight. I agree with your points. I also agree with Astro about the power consumption (I also don't care much about the power consumption as I tend to work mostly on AC).

As you noted, I think there are 4 variables in this whole fan noise issue:

(1) Intrinsic fan quality (i.e., how loud a fan operates at a certain rpm)
(2) The level of heat generated by the machine (as this determines how often or how fast the fan runs)
(3) The owner's tolerance to accoustic annoyance
(4) The level of ambient noise (quiet vs. noisy room)

All these affect our peception of the fan noise, and how much we are botthered by that. I agree with you that (1) can be the source as there could be some variance in the quality of fans. I don't think the fan on my T60 is particularly bad. I have T42p, which is generally considered to be the best in the accoustics department. When the fan on my T42p runs, it makes comparable noise (albeit slightly softer) as the fan on my new T60.

What I am really bottered by (2). Aside from the "fan noise" issue (and the power issue), it simply does not make much sense to design a laptop whose fan must be on all the time. All of my previous 8 ThinkPads had adaptive fan settings ("on" when needed and "off" when not). To me, it is a problematic design if T60's fan is indeed supposed to be on all the time. A good thermal control design could have avoided this mashap. Someone mentioned that Lenovo try to be on the safe side by running the fan all the time, but, in my humble opinion, this is not a good reason because there are certainly many trade-offs to this.

Also, I am more concerned by the fact that some owners of T60s reported in this and other threads that they do not experience this constant-on fan (or high GPU temperature). For example, one person reported his/her x1400 does not generate more than 65 at idle while mine (and some others') consistently generate 74-80. This means only one of the two things: (1) I (and others who have the same problem) have a defective (or poor quality) product; and/or (2) the quality control is not good; hence, higher variance in the product quality/performance.

I am sending this in for repair/inspection, and report what happens afterward.

Thank you for all your advice.

drblue wrote:What I am really bottered by (2). Aside from the "fan noise" issue (and the power issue), it simply does not make much sense to design a laptop whose fan must be on all the time. All of my previous 8 ThinkPads had adaptive fan settings ("on" when needed and "off" when not). To me, it is a problematic design if T60's fan is indeed supposed to be on all the time. A good thermal control design could have avoided this mashap.

My T42, currently running at 600 MHz CPU, has its fan on, but it's very quiet. I must put my ear up to the exhaust vent to hear the fan. The CPU speed is 1/3 of the max 1800 MHz speed because I have it set to "automatic" mode.

I don't think it is "problematic" if a laptop runs its fan all the time. My laptop dissipates about 14 watts at 600 MHz and it is not at all unreasonable to use a fan to move air to avoid overheating under those circumstances. Having said that, certainly a fan should be *quiet* when the laptop is not working very hard.

P.S. No, I'm not completely deaf. When I'm in a conference room with a colleague who has a T43, and that machine's fan kicks into high gear, I can hear it. And so can the rest of the room.

P.S. No, I'm not completely deaf. When I'm in a conference room with a colleague who has a T43, and that machine's fan kicks into high gear, I can hear it. And so can the rest of the room.

Ha Ha Ha.

Yes, you are right in that the fan quality could make a big difference. My Sony VAIO RA desktop is quieter than T60 (seriously) thanks to its good thermal design. I have a T42p. As far as I can tell, when the fan on my T42p is on, the noise level is not that different from the fan noise of T60 at the same rpm. Also, there are many people who swear that their T43 is quiet. Maybe there is some huge variance in the quality of ThinkPad fans?

There has to be some variance; simply from the fan noise of several Thinkpads I have heard, there must be. My T43 ended up being quieter than a T41 at a meeting once; various similar events occured as well to make me wonder just exactly what is the difference between the fans. I do know that the T4X Series has two fans available for it, the a short one and the M10 Long fan. What fan comes as default with what model I am not quite sure of.

There has to be some variance; simply from the fan noise of several Thinkpads I have heard, there must be. My T43 ended up being quieter than a T41 at a meeting once; various similar events occured as well to make me wonder just exactly what is the difference between the fans. I do know that the T4X Series has two fans available for it, the a short one and the M10 Long fan. What fan comes as default with what model I am not quite sure of.

I was also curious about the same thing. As far as I heard from the Lenovo tech support, there are 2-3 types of fans they use for T60. They referred them as "small fans" and "large fans." They said some T60s use a large fan, and the fan is louder. Interestingly, they told me that T60p uses a smaller fan (vs larger fan) than regular T60s, and that T60p tends to be quieter due to this (and the fan does not need to operate as often).

I don't know how accurate this information is (judging from their incompetency so far). But it seems true that different sub-models use different fan types/sizes.

I returned my T60 because of several problems. One of the problem was the high GPU temperature (77-82C idle). Many people responded it should not be a problem, but I found it strange that some others reported lower GPU temperature (2623D7U with x1400 128MB).

I received a replacement (new one) yesterday, and had a chance to observe the temperature of the new unit. Interestingly, I am yet to observe a temperature higher than 66C. Even after 30 hours on straight, the GPU temp remaines around 64-66C. This represents a significant difference from my old one (12-16C). The fan speed is same (3100-3200rpm).

I still don't know if both are in the normal range, but one thing I can tell you is that I like this new one that runs cooler much better.

I began to suspect that units that exhibit high GPU temp may be due to poor assembly (e.g., heat pipe or heat sink placement, etc.), or there could be faulty (or less tolerant) GPUs. At any rate, if you are concerned about your GPU being too hot, exchange is an option (the moral of the story).

drblue wrote:Thank you for all your comments. I enabled "PowerPlay." I even experimented with the setting by changing PowerPlay to "Battery Optimized." This, in theory, should reduce the operating temperature, but I don't really see much difference. The temp is always somewhere between 72-77. It is currently at 74 while the machine is not doing anything (except typing this).

Filter's comment made me concerned--he noted that I definitely have a defective GPU if the temperature is always in 70s. I trust his comment, yet I don't want to It is such a hassle to get it fixed. It is also possible that Lenovo does not see this as an issue, and refuses to fix it (or don't do anything).

Can anyone else confirm with the temperature of the GPU? Especially those with X1400.

It seems like a bit of funny business may be going on here. First you talked to a nameless technician who acknowledged that there are heat problems with the T60. If so, it's the first I've heard of it. You refer to the T60 having "many problems"-- wtf are you talking about? My machine is rock-solid stable and very cool and quiet. Now you're implying that Lenovo will screw you over if you try to get service.

I think you should be banned. I doubt that you have a Thinkpad at all.

jvarszegi wrote:It seems like a bit of funny business may be going on here. First you talked to a nameless technician who acknowledged that there are heat problems with the T60. If so, it's the first I've heard of it. You refer to the T60 having "many problems"-- wtf are you talking about? My machine is rock-solid stable and very cool and quiet. Now you're implying that Lenovo will screw you over if you try to get service.

I think you should be banned. I doubt that you have a Thinkpad at all.

Dear jvarszegi

I read this thread from end to end and i find drblue's comments to be well thought out, well written and to the point..
he had a concern and came here for help..
he found that help and made an informed decision to return rather that repair his T60..
my only question is what was the exact model number and s/n of his T60..
knowing this would enable a check to see which fan he had..

i was going to comment that my T60p is AFAIK DEAD QUIET even in the "library"..
i have not loaded or run the fan control since selling my T43p (Q2U) which had the well known T43 fan issues, so i don't know the temps this T60p is "running"..
now, after reading this thread, i will load it just to see whats up..

also, while you might have an opinion as to whether some member should or should not be banned, I (and the two other admin's here) are the only people with that power and whose opinions on that subject, matter..
your suggestion of this is not fair IMO and might be construed as an unfair attack on drblue..

i did not see anything about lenovo trying to screw drblue out of anything at all..
though

drblue wrote: (judging from their incompetency so far)

is a bit of a strong statement..

i can't understand your attack on drblue as all your other contributions in this community do not seem to be similar..
maybe you had a bad day..?


Dear drblue
i think you did exactlywhat you should have done..
send it back..
if you had not already done so i was about to strongly suggest that you do so..
[censored] happens (i get to say that, here ) and it happened to you this time..
thats why there is a 30 day return priviledge when buying from lenovo/IBM..
i would like to say that your fan WAS way too loud if your wife could hear it from the distance you described..

as i said above, your comments were exactly what we like to see here (except for that "incompetency" thing) and i hope that you continue to contribute..

as an aside, if i tried to list EVERY thinkpad i have owned, the list would start with the 700C, through the T60p..
and include, but not be limited to:
(memory is the 2nd part to "go")
700C
750C
755CE *
755CD
755CDV *
760CD *
701C
760ED
770
770ED
770X *
770Z
A30p
A31p
R50p
T41p
T42p
T43p
T60p
X40
X41
X41 Tablet
Transnote *
(all of the above i have used)
570 *
the 860 * (power PC) i have not used..
* = still have it or a similar one in the museum

jvarszegi wrote:Now you're implying that Lenovo will screw you over if you try to get service.

I think you should be banned. I doubt that you have a Thinkpad at all.

When I read the above post, a few things come to mind.

1) The author is unloading significant anger in the wrong place.

2) The author apparently does not appreciate the value of this forum, nor respect it's members contributions, whether they be posts asking for assistance or posts offering assistance.

3) This is not a place to chose to attack other well educated people, who are taking their valuable time to participate in a community of well intentioned members that have a lot of time invested in the quality and usefulness of this very educational forum.

On a positive note, this is a wonderful opportunity for the author to look in the mirror and positively identify the problem.

BillMorrow wrote:
I read this thread from end to end and i find drblue's comments to be well thought out, well written and to the point..
he had a concern and came here for help..
he found that help and made an informed decision to return rather that repair his T60..

I concur. In addition I have read many of drblue's posts on this forum and find him a to be a valuable member of our community.

Archer6

First of all, I TRULY APPRECIATE archer6 & BillMorrow's kind comments. I recently joined this forum, and all I've been doing here is asking for help. So, I think my contribution to this forum has been unbalanced to say the least, but I hope I could reverse the situation sometime in the near future. I found this forum to be incredibly valuable.

As far as I understand, this forum is not a place where ThinkPad "fanatics" gather to worship how beautiful ThinkPads are. It is my understanding--like any other forum--that this is a place in which people who own ThinkPads exchange their ideas/expertise to enhance their experience with ThinkPads. Obviously, there is at least one person who has different thoughts.

I read the comment by "jvarszegi", but was not compelled to respond to him/her. I enjoy debates with informed/courteous people, and wouldn't mind having some "heated" conversation as it could be educational, interesting, and even helpful. I don't expect everyone agrees with me, and expect others to correct me when I am wrong. That's why I come here, and everytime I come here, I learn something new.

However, I simply could not find a way to respond to jvarszegi's rather unorthodox comment. More importantly, I could not find any reason to respond to him/her because there is not much prospect that I could learn from him/her. I just hope he/she does not use a word like "wtf" in this forum again.

back on topic...

If the "heat problem" is just a matter of poor assembly, then would it be possible to re-apply thermal paste on the GPU and heat-sink? I am also experiencing this "heat problem" with GPU temps in the mid-70s while idling, and I'd rather not return my unit.

If the "heat problem" is just a matter of poor assembly, then would it be possible to re-apply thermal paste on the GPU and heat-sink? I am also experiencing this "heat problem" with GPU temps in the mid-70s while idling, and I'd rather not return my unit.

I am not sure if re-applying thermal plaste on the GPU and heat-sink could lower the temp of your GPU. According to what I heard from various sources (Lenovo tech people, ATI tech people, etc.), the GPU temp (for X1400) in the 70-80C should be "normal". I was told that the range of the GPU temp for X1400 is between 62-82C. I know it is a wide range, and doesn't make much sense to me (How can the same chips run at such different temps?). But that is what I was told (so don't quote me on this). They told me that the temperature variance could arise from either (1) the chip itself (some chips run hotter than others due to manufacturing differences, etc.), or (2) assembly/construction differences/problem. Thus, if your GPU temp is high due to (2), re-assembly may lower the temp. But if (1) is the reason, that isn't going to do anything.

ATI people also told me that there will be no adverse effects when mobile X1400s run at a temp higher than 80-90C (for an extended period of time). So, it appears that the GPU temp in the 70s is NOT considered to be a problem. So, you may not need to be concerned about this, and I might have done something totally unnecessary (i.e., exchanging my unit)

drblue wrote:

If the "heat problem" is just a matter of poor assembly, then would it be possible to re-apply thermal paste on the GPU and heat-sink? I am also experiencing this "heat problem" with GPU temps in the mid-70s while idling, and I'd rather not return my unit.

I am not sure if re-applying thermal plaste on the GPU and heat-sink could lower the temp of your GPU. According to what I heard from various sources (Lenovo tech people, ATI tech people, etc.), the GPU temp (for X1400) in the 70-80C should be "normal". I was told that the range of the GPU temp for X1400 is between 62-82C. I know it is a wide range, and doesn't make much sense to me (How can the same chips run at such different temps?). But that is what I was told (so don't quote me on this). They told me that the temperature variance could arise from either (1) the chip itself (some chips run hotter than others due to manufacturing differences, etc.), or (2) assembly/construction differences/problem. Thus, if your GPU temp is high due to (2), re-assembly may lower the temp. But if (1) is the reason, that isn't going to do anything.

ATI people also told me that there will be no adverse effects when mobile X1400s run at a temp higher than 80-90C (for an extended period of time). So, it appears that the GPU temp in the 70s is NOT considered to be a problem. So, you may not need to be concerned about this, and I might have done something totally unnecessary (i.e., exchanging my unit)

Seems a bit wide to me too, perhaps they meant normal operating range from min to max when it gets loaded heavily; maybe they do mean that as a normal idle range though.

Bill,

A true fan would have an A21p on their list. I think it was one of the all-time greatest Thinkpads.

Greetings all,

I just received my T60 with an ATi x1300 GPU a couple weeks ago and immediately set about installing and configuring Debian GNU/Linux on it. So far, everything has worked extremely well. The only issues I seem to be having are with 3D accelerated graphics and it appears to be a temperature issue. I have the latest proprietary ATI drivers installed (version 8.25.18 .)

Even with simple 3D applications like glxgears and some simple games, the temperature spikes way up on the GPU to over 88 C in the 392/324 (core/memory) MHz powerplay mode of the GPU. In the other two powerplay modes available through 'aticonfig', namely 324/135 MHz and 128/135 MHz, the temperature of the GPU still gets above 80 C.

This would be fine, as I can handle an elevated temperature. The real problem comes when I try any type of game that is demanding of the video hardware. Playing Unreal Tournament 2004 at a resolution of 1024x768 with medium/low detail settings on all pertinent graphics options spikes the GPU temperature up past 90 C and several minutes into playing really nasty artifacts start to appear making playing impossible, crazy gray polygons exploding from center of screen, weapon models getting all spiny, other madness... Same thing for Doom 3 on the lowest resolution and graphics detail settings.

I sent in the machine for repair after logging all those temperatures under different conditions and received it back yesterday. The IBM Repair Center action report sheet stated that the "Planar Card" had been replaced as well as Misc parts, along with a BIOS / EC update, even though the BIOS and EC versions were older than when I received the machine brand new.

Shouldn't the cooling solution in this machine be able to properly sink away heat from the GPU at its default settings (392/324 MHz)? If I request more of the card by using a crazy high resolution or something, the heat output should peak at a point where the cooling solution keeps it in a range where artifacts don't appear, but my frame rate will just suffer.

My BIOS and EC versions are 1.06 each.

So, to keep this from being any longer, I'll just ask if anyone has any insights into this problem. Has anyone out there done any gaming on a T60 with an x1300 in Linux? I wouldn't care if I just got crappy framerates with elevated graphics settings, but these artifact problems make me suspect that I am risking some kind of physical damage to the chip at really high temperatures.

Omou wrote:... I sent in the machine for repair after logging all those temperatures under different conditions and received it back yesterday. The IBM Repair Center action report sheet stated that the "Planar Card" had been replaced as well as Misc parts, along with a BIOS / EC update, even though the BIOS and EC versions were older than when I received the machine brand new...

Thanks for your comments. I am thinking of installing Ubuntu on a T60. I'm curious, did you get lower temperature readings with the replaced parts?

Thanks,
neomatrix

NeoMatrix,

I neglected to mention the outcome of the service call. The temperatures are identical after having the machine serviced and returned. Severe graphics artifacts still appear when gaming, even at modest resolutions and settings. As I haven't heard anything of this sort from those gaming on a T60 under Windows, maybe there is some problem with the ati-provided Linux fglrx driver. Either that or the cooling system is not doing its job. Perhaps the fan is not spinning as fast as it should, which if I am not mistaken should be handled by the BIOS, and not the acpi system under Linux, and so should in theory not be a problem since the entire mobo (planar card, yes?) has been replaced. I plan on investigating the ibm_acpi kernel module used in experimental mode to poll fan speeds and see if that sheds some light on things. I also updated the EC and BIOS versions to the latest (1.06) with no noticeable effect. It would be really swell to be able to do some gaming on this machine without worrying about damaging something or contending with the display going nuts.

I am bring my new quesiton here because perhaps it does belong here after all ... unlike some my problem is not that the fan is on all the time or that it is too load ... it is on all the time but it is so quite I cannot hear it unless I am very close to the machine ... I must be the only person who wants the fan to work more ... I know you are no doubt shocked ..... but I, like some find the temperature a bit hight and was thinking that perhaps when they put the graphic chip in they underestimated the heat and thus the fan ... I would ask IBM but I do not have much faith in them

c) here are the temperatures after a whole day of nonestop use ... including graphic applications and it is a warm day in Berlin are these temperatures normal:
CPU 58°C (0x78)
APS 42°C (0x79)
PCM 40°C (0x7a)
GPU 78°C (0x7b)
BAT 32°C (0x7c)
BAT 31°C (0x7e)
BUS 44°C (0xc0)
PCI 52°C (0xc1)
PWR 50°C (0xc2)

is this acceptable ... if so then I will leave it as is ... if not then could someone help me out with the question below....

O.k.
I have what I think is the latest tpfancontrol_v018b ... and have it in Bios mode ... but before I activate it ... a question: the default settings in the configuration are:
Level=47 0
Level=50 3
Level=55 4
Level=60 7
Level=70 128

a) is this good for the T60? and what have other people adjusted them to?

b) do I need to change these?:
IconLevels=50 55 60
IgnoreSensors=XXX,YYY,ZZZ




Thanks in advance

Sorry to start a new line on this... transfer it you like ... but I looked around at all the discussions concerning the fan and temperature but this was not discussed ...

Alright everyone, I've come to some conclusions on this GPU issue, at least for my hardware.

Since I sent the unit in, they supposedly replaced the planar card (can I get a confirmation from someone knowledgeable that the "planar card" = "motherboard?" Just curious.) and I am still getting severe graphics artifacts that make playing every first person shooter that I try at least mostly unplayable after a seemingly random interval after starting the game. I thought this was due to the GPU operating at a dangerously high temperature and thus freaked out and sent the thing back to be repaired. Once the new unit was returned, the same exact problems were evident. All this behavior was observed under Debian GNU/Linux, by the way.

I broke down, and wiped the drive again in the interest of diagnostic investigation and used my set of restore disks to bring the machine back to its factory-installed software state with XP. And guess what? That's right, no problems gaming. No artifacts, no glitches. Smooth as silk. Using tpfancontrol, I monitored the temperatures during gaming and all the values were elevated in the same way as they were under Linux, sometimes well over 90C, but no visible problems. Thus, the x1300 was apparently not artifacting due to a temperature issue and all those things are apparently due to some deal with my linux install, the fglrx graphics driver or some combination of the two.

The extra kicker is that since I got the "repaired" unit back, I have noticed a VERY annoying high pitched whine that I am certain is from the fan as it goes away immediately when the fan is turned off and is modulated by a even more annoying 'ping' sound everytime the EC updates the fan speed. It's only apparent in a very quiet room, but given the fact that it is far more irritating than just the sound of rushing air, and the fact that before the service call my machine was nearly silent, this is a major bummer. I commented in another thread dealing with this issue if anyone is having the same experience... http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26346

Thanks to everyone who posted comments about GPU temps.

I thought I'd post my temps of my newly arrived 2007-72U.

My computer during some mild surfing on the net for an hour:

CPU 43°C (0x78)
APS 35°C (0x79)
PCM 37°C (0x7a)
GPU 57°C (0x7b)
BAT 50°C (0x7c)
BAT 30°C (0x7e)
BUS 39°C (0xc0)
PCI 43°C (0xc1)
PWR 41°C (0xc2)

After reading this thread, I'm surprise to find my GPU at 57°C, the fan is at 3046 rpms. Sorry, I'm not a gamer so I can't really test any heavy duty stuff.

JD.

It would be very helpful if you can also share your room temperature when you took the readings.

It's kind of difficult to compare when christopher_wolf runs his T43 in a 18-19'C room and say the fan is very quiet

Sure, my room temperture is 26 C.

drblue wrote:I returned my T60 because of several problems. One of the problem was the high GPU temperature (77-82C idle). Many people responded it should not be a problem, but I found it strange that some others reported lower GPU temperature (2623D7U with x1400 128MB).

I received a replacement (new one) yesterday, and had a chance to observe the temperature of the new unit. Interestingly, I am yet to observe a temperature higher than 66C. Even after 30 hours on straight, the GPU temp remaines around 64-66C. This represents a significant difference from my old one (12-16C). The fan speed is same (3100-3200rpm).

I still don't know if both are in the normal range, but one thing I can tell you is that I like this new one that runs cooler much better.

I began to suspect that units that exhibit high GPU temp may be due to poor assembly (e.g., heat pipe or heat sink placement, etc.), or there could be faulty (or less tolerant) GPUs. At any rate, if you are concerned about your GPU being too hot, exchange is an option (the moral of the story).

Can you confirm whether or not they sent you the same model back? I was considering the same model you sent in...but if upgrading for a couple hundred to the t60p is what i have to do for a quiet fan...I suppose i will have to.

young guy wrote:After reading this thread, I'm surprise to find my GPU at 57°C, the fan is at 3046 rpms.

I'm a couple of weeks from ordering a T60 , and thus somewhat concerned about the GPU temperatures (one of the big problems of my current dell is overheating).

Does anybody have an idea whether the high temperatures occur more often with the 14.1in models? As far as I know, the 2007-72U is a 15in model, and due to the increased bulk it should have more internal space available for the cooling system to work in a more efficient way.

Unfortunately I don't have any way to verify this suspicion, but the difference in size between 14.1in/15in models would explain some of the differences.

After reading through this thread, and actually owning a t60 I would not be to worried.

Here are my temperature readings. a t60 14.1 inch 2007-63G model. (Bios 1.09a)

CPU 45°C (0x78)
APS 37°C (0x79)
PCM 37°C (0x7a)
GPU 68°C (0x7b)
BAT 34°C (0x7c)
BAT 32°C (0x7e)
BUS 38°C (0xc0)
PCI 43°C (0xc1)
PWR 42°C (0xc2)

room temperature is around 23-26°C

On battery, the fan is running around 2913 rpm. Once it kicks in, it usually never stops unless I turn up the AC and the gpu temp. drops under 65°C. Once it reaches 66°C the fan starts again. Using tpfan control to turn off the fan, the gpu temp rises to around 71°C and stays there.

cheers,
flo