Brand new T60p, dead

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esmithf_ts · #1 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:39 am

Around the 17th of June I bought a T60p from CDW.com and have been using it everyday since. I own a consulting company and so it is critical that I have working computers - part of why I bought a ThinkPad was their strong reputation.

This evening, while I was working on something due for a client tomorrow, the machine froze - no mouse/keyboard response (neither from external USB devices, or on the actual trackpad/trackpoint, or laptop keyboard).

I pressed the power button to shut the unit off, and then waited about 10 seconds and then pressed the button again to start it up. It came to the Windows XP boot screen, but the slider never bounced back and forth, it just sat there with an empty box in that spot.
I let it sit for about 5 minutes while I worked on some other things, and then I restarted it and tried again - still no go.
Then I looked for the boot disc it came with... oops, didn't come with one.

The next time I restarted it, it gave me various Safe Mode options and the "Last Known Good..." - I tried all of those - the Last Known was exactly the same as the regular boot, and all of the Safe Modes stop at mup.sys.

I have no boot CD, so I used my MSDN subscription and downloaded XP Pro and I am burning that to a disc now - I am going to try the Recovery Console and see if this really is a mup.sys issue, or something larger (in my experience, it is rarely actually the mup.sys - especially on a brand new unit like this).

I phoned the customer support number and it just bounced me through menus and occasionally restarted. I eventually got tired of that and pressed the option to hear how to get support online, and it literally hung up on me - great!

I tried to find something online at the http://www.lenovo.com/think/support that is listed in the manual, but everything there assumes your machine will at least boot. Mine boots in the theoretical sense, but then never gets past that one screen.

The information on that HD is absolutely vital to me - I can limp along and get work done on other laptops that I have here - but what steps can I do to get this machine back?
I am in Cambridge MA - are there support places here where I can walk in for support?

Please help, any suggestions would be great - this has me pretty unhappy with Lenovo right now. When I bought the laptop from CDW, they even phoned me to say that if this thing breaks, they don't cover it under their replacement policy. I thought this was odd and asked if they have been having issues with it, and he said quickly that no they hadn't - but perhaps that was a warning.

Worst case scenario, I'm going to have to open this thing up and take the HD out and then mount it in an external USB enclosure and then mount that into a separate machine.
I absolutely have to have the data on there.
My backup software and drives are on their way - this of course HAD to happen today of all days.

esmithf_ts · #2 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:15 am

Just to add more info here:

1) One of the times I was trying to bring it back up, it didn't even get to a boot failure, it just was dead and it beeped at me in a 1-3-3-1 pattern. I looked that up here: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-46018 and I see that it says to check DIMM and then System Board.

I had recently bought more RAM and had been meaning to put it in, but had just been too busy to get to it, so when I saw that perhaps the RAM was an issue, I followed the instructions in the manual and replaced the RAM. I put it back together, same issues as before - and I still occasionally get the 1-3-3-1 error beeps.

Since it doesn't appear to be the RAM (it is totally replaced and properly seated - I even took it apart once more to make sure), it now would appear to be the "System Board" which I can only assume is the motherboard, which then means that this system is hosed.
(but on the good side, it would theoretically mean that if I had a duplicate system like this, the HD could be swapped out and it should boot and still have files accessible on there)

2) When I regular boot, it doesn't succeed. When I boot and do the ThinkVantage button, it doesn't succeed.
I just started up the XP Pro SP2 CD and it won't even boot on there, it hangs.
So again, it really appears that there is an issue with the machine that is breaking the boot process, and it isn't anything with the HD.

3) On this page: http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=204131 they mention that they boot with a Linux CD and it gives them more specific details about what is causing the boot failures - so I suppose that is going to be my next path to try.

So can anyone tell me what the proper course of action is for me to follow with Lenovo in that:
1) my T60p is brand new and clearly still under warrenty
2) I desperately need the data on that HD
3) the motherboard on this very much appears to be done for

Cultural_Broker · #3 Post by **Cultural_Broker** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:20 am

There is a service center located at the basement of the Science Center, Harvard Univ.

More detailed info:

Phone: 617-496-8324

E-mail: dispatch@harvard.edu

Walk-in depot centers:

Technology Services
219 Western Avenue
Allston, MA 02134 (past Harvard Stadium on the corner of North Harvard and Western Ave.)
Free parking in lot. Enter through door at side of building.

Business Hours:
Monday to Friday 8:30 AM to 5 PM

Computer Product and Repair Center
Science Center B11
Cambridge MA, 02138

Business Hours:
Monday to Thursday 11 AM to 7 PM
Friday 9 AM - 5 PM

On Site Service Hours:
Monday to Friday 9 AM to 5 PM

Hope that the people there can resolve your issue.

#4 Post by **Kyocera** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:53 am

Put the HD in an enclosure connected to another machine and see if you can get your data off that way. You might try obtaining the recovery CD set and see if you can boot into the recovery env that way. Other than that can't offer much. There is a repair diskette available for the mbr to help machines boot into the recovery env also, available on the ibm/lenovo web site.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-54483

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26847

yves · #5 Post by **yves** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:54 am

1)It is mays be a power supply issue.

I dont think it is the HDD

2) I am using my T60P 24h00 / day . All my life, personnal and proffessionnal, is on one 100 Go SATA HDD

My biggest nightmare is that something like your TP faillure happen to me

I back up my 100 Go HDD regularly (once a week)

I will also try to purchase another T61P in order to have another machine ready in case of faillure

Since 1992, I never had any TP faillure (HDD, motherboard, etc)

Until now, no problem at all

esmithf_ts · #6 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:20 am

Thank you so much for the quick replies. I didn't know about this site, but now I am happy to be here and will have to stick around as (hopefully) I get this resolved.

I have emailed the Harvard site and will call in a bit once I put a few other fires here this morning.

As to the person who said it might be a power supply issue - I wondered that too, but I have tried this on the wall power and also on just battery power, same result - so perhaps you mean the converter on the insided of the device after either the battery/line interface, I don't know anything about it after that.

I had otherwise been happy with this machine and was planning on getting a docking station for it since I wanted a DVI out and was also nervous that my frequent and essentially non-stop use of it would be bad for it.
I have yet to even travel with it - it just sits on my desk all day and I program and remote in to client sites with it.

I recently moved back to the US from another country and so not all of my things are back here yet - I normally like to have a fileserver with several redundant backups on there, and have the laptops talk to it - but I am still getting things up and going and this laptop died before I could finish the network setup here.

I will keep you posted as I learn more about this.

foodle · #7 Post by **foodle** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:56 am

As Kyocera said, if the data on the drive is so vital, then before you do anything else, pop the drive out, put it in an enclosure, and get the data off. Never know when you'll click through a bunch of menus as you re-install the OS and accidentally agree to reformat the drive. Getting the drive out isn't too hard.

If you can get to the XP boot screen, then you can drop into the Rescue&Recovery software using the ThinkVantage button before that. Unless your drive is hosed, you should be able to use the R&R partition (but get your data off first!).

One of the first things I do after getting a new TP is create the recovery media. It sure beats waiting for Lenovo to send them to you.

esmithf_ts · #8 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:07 am

I am going to try to get out and get an enclosure today. This is just such an awful time because I am booked non-stop and I am traveling soon as well to complicate matters.

As for the ThinkVantage button - I tried that during the boot process when you get the IBM spashscreen and then I went to F11 to go into the recovery, and it freezes in the same way that the XP boot does.
I don't know exactly what it does there, but it appears that it is loading its own kernel in which to do work, and that can't load either.

So the XP on drive fails to load, the ThinkVantage recovery fails to load, and the recovery on the CD for XP Pro fails to load - very much looks like a hardware issue and not a drive issue.

So if I can get that enclosure, I should be able to get to the data (fingers crossed). I just need to find somewhere locally here that has them. Hopefully Radio Shack or Staples will have something.

I had emailed that Harvard tech support, I will try phoning now. I am not a Harvard student, so it appears I might have some hassle - but as it turns out, my wife is a PhD Harvard Student, so even though she is traveling right now on vacation, I might still be able to get service using her ID.

#9 Post by **Kyocera** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:11 am

my thought was this, if you could try to fix the mbr with the repair disk, boot into the rescue and recovery environment from there you can access your hard drive to "rescue files from the current HD" also you can run pc dr. from there to possibly trouble shoot your hardware config. You can also try making a XP boot floppy, google that, it's very sipmple.

Good luck

esmithf_ts · #10 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:23 am

There is no floppy on this device, internal nor external. The boot process itself, regardless of the media used, appears to be failing, and it appears to be a motherboard issue.

Just for good measure, I tried booting from a Linux CD (Knoppix) and it too failed in the same way.

I phoned a tech support person at that Harvard number and they listened to what I had gone through and said that it definitely sounded like a shot motherboard and that it could just be replaced under warrenty.

So I am going to try and get out today and track down one of those external drive enclosures that will work with a laptop drive, and then take this drive out and get all of the important data off of it, then I guess put it back in and take it in tomorrow to get serviced. She said it should take a week (fingers crossed) if the part isn't on back order.

They say that they are not responsible for any data on the device, so I am tempted to just buy another laptop drive for it and put that in there and keep this one, and then when I get it back, swap this drive back in.
But I would imagine that probably voids the warrenty process or something.

I just have a lot of installs and licenses (Flash, Photoshop, Illustrator, Visual Studio, SQL Server, IIS .NET, Komodo, etc) on this drive that are going to be a hassle to redo - but I guess it isn't the end of the world.
The key thing is a folder of client data, and I can get that and pull it onto this other laptop and then get it onto a flash drive for now.

I will then order a spare ThinkPad backup, and a fileserver with Backup Exec and a few external drives (a single external drive and a Backup Exec were already on their way - it was like my laptop sensed it).
I will also get a docking station in case this issue stemmed from the essentially "always on" state I had it in. I don't know that the docking station would help with that or not - but at least then I would get a DVI connection for my monitor.

freakwave · #11 Post by **freakwave** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:18 pm

Hi,

just a suggestion for the future. If you are so dependent on this machine, I really would suggest to sign a on site maintenance. I am using these thinkpads since 5 years now and always have on site maintenance. For the T60 here in Europe the cost was like 200 USD for three years on site repair. I think this is an awesome price. I had a blown graphics chip last year. Opened a ticket, and the next morning a IBM technician was at my home and replaced the motherboard within 10 minutes.
For me this is the best investment I can do.

Regards

#12 Post by **Kyocera** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:48 pm

To add to what freakwave and foodle said, it is good to have a usb floppy laying around, they are less than $20 bucks on sale and can be a great help in a jam.

rockefella · #13 Post by **rockefella** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:30 pm

I own my own law firm, and if I can't get to my data, not only do I have angry clients, I get sued for malpractice.

I've been in your nightmare, so here's a few things I do now.

Continuous real-time backups of all hard drives using a networked server

Periodic manual backups of hard drive image using Acronis True Image

Backup Thinkpad T42 that is ready to go in case my T60p fails

Opted for on-site 5 year extended warranty on my T60p - screw the depot service, if my computer fails, I want a techie to come out to me the same day and fix my thinkpad

The above may sound extravagant, but trust me, if you simply cannot afford to lose access to client data, then all of the above is, in my opinion, necessary. I will never again lose data as I have in the past, and hopefully you won't either.

esmithf_ts · #14 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:01 pm

Thanks for all the help everyone. I have been a network admin in the past, so I know all of the procedures for proper backup and was in the middle of trying to implement them - I recently moved back into the US and am setting up a new office here - so while equipment was on its way in, this happened.

I definitely need to upgrade to on site service though, I don't know enough about the support options available. When I bring it in for service, I will ask them about it there.

I went to two places to get a USB external drive bay for the drive, but they only had them for large desktop type drives, and they were IDE.
I went to a third place that they suggested, as did the tech on the phone where I need to bring the ThinkPad, and this place indeed had enclosures for a 2.5" drive.

Except they were all IDE - some had firewire output, and some were USB 2.0, which I got, but I took out the drive and see that it is SATA, so now it looks like I don't have an easy way to get one of those locally here.

I am going to look online now to see if I can get something overnighted to me. It is so frustrating that I can look at my drive here and know that my data is likely perfectly happy sitting there, but I can't get to it

Scratch · #15 Post by **Scratch** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:23 pm

I do the Acronis thing also and backup to a network drive as well, but I've found it convenient and inexpensive to Briefcase Sync my working folders to a 4GB microdrive in the Cardslot at the end of the day. If I run into any problems it's available to me on any of my other systems at any time. Flash Drives are another obvious alternative, but are somewhat more costly and they're not always plugged in and waiting.

YMMV.

Best of luck with your situation.

foodle · #16 Post by **foodle** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:26 pm

Newegg has one SATA 2.5" USB enclosure:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817362001

The reviews of the product aren't great, but Newegg is very fast and dependable.

Google also dug up:
http://www.cooldrives.com/almiposa25in.html

No clue about the company or product.

sugo · #17 Post by **sugo** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:50 pm

esmithf_ts wrote: and then take this drive out and get all of the important data off of it, then I guess put it back in and take it in tomorrow to get serviced.

Don't waste time. IBM does not need your HDD. You can take out the hard drive and send the thinkpad in for service.

irfan · #18 Post by **irfan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:54 pm

strabge...IE7 detected the second link as a phishing site

#19 Post by **JaneL** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:04 pm

esmithf_ts wrote:So I am going to try and get out today and track down one of those external drive enclosures that will work with a laptop drive, and then take this drive out and get all of the important data off of it, then I guess put it back in and take it in tomorrow to get serviced.

Item #5 in the FAQ references EasyServ, but I would expect it to apply to the service depot as well.

esmithf_ts · #20 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:27 pm

Wow. I really appreciate all of the help you guys have given me on this. This is a great site.

#21 Post by **archer6** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:12 am

rockefella wrote: Backup Thinkpad T42 that is ready to go in case my T60p fails

The above may sound extravagant, but trust me, if you simply cannot afford to lose access to client data, then all of the above is, in my opinion, necessary.

Precisely! I've been doing the same thing for years now. I have always been good about backup, it's just that the backup is worthless unless I have something to run it on. After experiencing some painful downtime due to a crashed laptop, I immediately brought a second one into the picture. The benefits are numerous. 1) Removes all the pressure of having to drop everything and deal with the crashed machine immediately. 2) Leaves travel plans untouched. 3) Pays for itself in the amount of time & trouble saved. 4) Peace of mind is priceless.

Since I travel frequently I always carry 2 ThinkPads (mirror imaged) for that reason. In fact that was the one of the reasons for the new X60s this year. T60 @ 5.6 lbs + X60s @ 2.6 lbs. = 8.2 lbs. Just a bit more than your average Dell w/massive brick & extra battery. Now carrying 2 ThinkPads is actually easy...

esmithf_ts · #22 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:26 am

What software do you recommend to mirror image your machine? I haved used Ghost in the past, but perhaps you have experience with others that you recommend?

#23 Post by **archer6** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:18 pm

esmithf_ts wrote:What software do you recommend to mirror image your machine? I haved used Ghost in the past, but perhaps you have experience with others that you recommend?

I use Acronis with great success. Easy and fast. www.acronis.com

hoya · #24 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:26 pm

I've blown several system boards and found that this helped:

- unplug system and remove battery

- press the power button ten times repeatedly

- then hold down the power button for 25 seconds in order to completely discharge the capacitors, etc.

try plugging in the AC power and attempt to boot. if nothing, then repeat process but to run off the battery instead.

I was able to boot back into my system for a few minutes after following that procedure despite having a bad system board.

esmithf_ts · #25 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:37 pm

Thanks for the tip. I just tried that, but still no luck.

Not terribly surprising since it seems like what you suggest would probably work better if the unit was not even getting to any sort of boot screen.
Mine gets to the part where it starts to load things and then... just hangs. No matter the OS, no matter the medium you are booting from (well, I can't say that 100%, I haven't tried to boot from USB yet, but HD and CD both fail to fully boot).

I have two consecutive deadlines through Saturday, then I need to pick up a suit and fly to NYC for meetings next week and then I get back here late on the 12th.
By then all of my backup items will have arrived and I can pull the data off of this drive, and then I can take the whole unit to them to get fixed.

I phoned them and asked if I was positive that the motherboard was the issue, could I bring the unit in without a HD in it, and the girl said that they need the HD for testing. I said "Couldn't you use another one, you surely have them around? What if my HD had been the issue, you would need to deal with that right?"
She then got really snippy.

Would it be too obvious to try and track down a SATA 2.5 disk and swap that out with my current one which might not be broken at all?

I know you said in the FAQ that the HD isn't needed for a similar thing, but maybe they just have a policy of saying that it is.
Also, it came with 1GB of RAM, but I took that out and put in 2GB of RAM during this time - should I go back in and take that out before bringing it to them?

#26 Post by **Kyocera** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:44 pm

Are you talking about Lenovo tech support?

hoya · #27 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:52 pm

I've sent lots of machines to EzServ (Solectron), and each time I removed the hard drive, battery, AC adapter, optical drive, etc. I also removed any memory that didn't ship with the original system just to be on the safe side, though that shouldn't be necessary since there is a space on the form where you can mark the amount of RAM that you'll be shipping with your system.

also, take a few pictures of your machine to document the condition. they left several gashes in one of my T42's which required yet another trip to Memphis for a new case. I have nothing good to say about Solectron other than the fact that their turnaround has always been extremely fast.

unless you can image that drive, I would hang on to it and ship the system with no hard drive.

esmithf_ts · #28 Post by **esmithf_ts** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:09 pm

While I am in NYC, supposedly imaging software and new hardware is on the way for backups (I am also considering getting another ThinkPad as well), so I can get back, image this drive, and then the service is actually done nearby here in a place I can take it to that does support in house.
Something related to Harvard apparently (earlier in this thread someone posted email/phone numbers for it).

#29 Post by **Kyocera** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Definately heed hoya's advice, pictures and all, and if you do send in your drive be aware that they could re image it and call it trouble shooting, so i'd think twice about that.

#30 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:18 pm

esmithf_ts wrote:I know you said in the FAQ that the HD isn't needed for a similar thing, but maybe they just have a policy of saying that it is.
Also, it came with 1GB of RAM, but I took that out and put in 2GB of RAM during this time - should I go back in and take that out before bringing it to them?

Item #5 is in the FAQ for a reason. Your data; your call.

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