T60p: Problem with Flexview display

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gibbs · #1 Post by **gibbs** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:47 pm

After much deliberation (and many hours reading the helpful advice from the members of this forum), I purchased my first Thinkpad, a T60p with the 15" UXGA Flexview display (Model 2623-DDU). When it arrived, I encountered a problem with the display. When the display was set to black, I noticed a dark band along the bottom edge of the display that curved upward at each corner to form a smile. The bottom half of the display also contained persistent ghost images of the windows and images that appeared on the previous screen (particularly those that are white or lighter in color). The effect is similar to that observed on an old CRT monitor with an image that has been burned-in.

I spoke with IBM service and they suggested sending it in for repair. It appeared to me that I had received a defective display so I decided that rather than sending it in for service, I would return it and order a replacement. I received my replacement T60p this weekend and, to my dismay, find that it behaves identically. I spoke with IBM service again, and they indicated that this is not a commonly reported problem. They offered to examine it and repair it if necessary, but if this behavior is normal for this display, I need to find a different computer (or at least a different display).

Have others observed this behavior? It can be seen whenever the display is set to black. For example, I observe it with the default screen-saver (the WindowsXP icon appears at random locations against a black background). I see a persistent ghost image of my desktop on the lower portion of my screen in addition to ghost images of the WindowsXP icon wherever it has appeared. I also observe a dark smile at the bottom of the screen. The effect can also be observed using a video or pixel testing program and setting the screen to black. I only observe the problem when the display is black (this is often the case for me due to the nature of the software that I use). I have noted other problems with the Flexview displays in other posts, but could not find one that describes a similar effect.

I have limited experience with Thinkpads and with Windows so I am uncertain whether I have exhausted all of the troubleshooting possibilities. The problem is independent of the resolution that I specify. I do not observe the problem on an external LCD display. I thought that the problem might be related to the bios problems that others have observed, so I downgraded the bios from 1.07 to 1.04, but that did not help. The smile effect at the bottom of the screen may be a problem with the seating of the display or the backlight, but I think that the dark pixel response has a different origin, perhaps related to the Flexview technology. Is this a common issue?

I am uncertain whether to

(1) Return this machine and try yet again with the same model.

(2) Send this machine in for service.

(3) Return this machine and purchase a Thinkpad with a different display (XGA or XGA+ without Flexview) if it is the Flexview that is causing my problem.

(4) Return this machine and drive to the Apple store and buy a MacBook Pro.

I really want to LOVE this machine, but right now I am leaning towards (4).

In any event, thank you all for the patient and helpful advice posted on this forum.

own6volvos · #2 Post by **own6volvos** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:59 pm

I have the same model arriving wed/thurs of this week. I will make a few 1600x1200 GIF images with black background, and large white circles in various spots. If anything, this should make the problem very apparent. I just hope this isn't the case. The 1400x1050 Flex screens I have used didn't show any of this, but those are also made by a different company. In any case, I will let you know and snap some pictures if I see any of it occur on mine.

gibbs · #3 Post by **gibbs** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:02 pm

Thank you for agreeing to provide feedback, own6volvos.

On my display, if I cycle between an image similar to the one you describe (white circles on a black background) and an image that is entirely black, the circles will appear as darker areas on the black image. The darker areas appear to fade over the course of about 5-15 minutes, giving the display a blotchy appearance in the affected areas.

I do not have a digital camera, but I will see if I can borrow one so that I can document this as well.

I hope that you find your new display does not exhibit the same behavior.

#4 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:14 pm

no such afterimage on my T60p 200794U model..
though it was running with the display blanked and i touched the trackpoint and now see the windows logo screensaver..

now i have opened a couple of white windows and i'll wait it out for the screensave to take over..
and i'll report back..

EDIT: nope, no such "smiling" effect..
nothing but a black display with the windows logo pooping up here and there..

gibbs · #5 Post by **gibbs** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:13 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Bill. It makes me more optimistic about the possibility of obtaining a functioning display.

When my screensaver turns on, I can read "WindowsXP" afterimages on the display at the positions where it has appeared. I can also make out afterimages of the red and orange panes on the Windows logo. I also see dark afterimages of lighter windows. This is more apparent in the lower half of the display. I can even make out the longitudinal lines on the default Thinkpad desktop wallpaper near the bottom of the screen (this was also the case with my original T60p).

I find it incredible that I would have received two laptops with this problem.

ramian · #6 Post by **ramian** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:41 pm

no after image on my SXGA+ screen as well (2007-72A). It might be a problem with the UXGA screens...

own6volvos · #7 Post by **own6volvos** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:50 pm

Could both of you guys check the online IBM installed parts guide, and find out what part number display is installed in your laptops? Currently only 1 manufacturer is listed on IBM's site for the 1600x1200 display, but they might have added one in the mean time.

The image persistence almost sounds like what was happening on some Dell handheld and desktop LCD screens from voltage regulators being a bit off, and overdriving the display.

#8 Post by **archer6** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:27 pm

gibbs wrote:I find it incredible that I would have received two laptops with this problem.

I checked a couple of T60p models at the office and they are not affected in any way. I too find it incredible that you received 2 back to back. My suggestion would be to call for an RMA to return it and get yet another new T60p, my bet is that one will be just fine. The odds are in your favor and this is not a widely known problem.

Good Luck and keep us posted...

ramian · #9 Post by **ramian** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:30 pm

According to the parts index [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 62806.html], there is only 1 manufacturer for the UXGA screen (BOE-Hydis) with FRU number 13N7076.

gibbs · #10 Post by **gibbs** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:05 pm

own6volvos wrote:Could both of you guys check the online IBM installed parts guide, and find out what part number display is installed in your laptops? Currently only 1 manufacturer is listed on IBM's site for the 1600x1200 display, but they might have added one in the mean time.

My serial number indicates that the display in this machine is manufactured by BOE-Hydis (FRU Part # 13N7076).

gibbs · #11 Post by **gibbs** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:25 pm

archer6 wrote: I checked a couple of T60p models at the office and they are not affected in any way. I too find it incredible that you received 2 back to back. My suggestion would be to call for an RMA to return it and get yet another new T60p, my bet is that one will be just fine. The odds are in your favor and this is not a widely known problem.

Thank you so much for taking the time to check and for your advice, archer6.

(Up to this point, I thought that my biggest problem would be finding a case that would accommodate it.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=23144

Based on your advice, I decided to go with Crumper--I wish I could afford Coach).

gibbs · #12 Post by **gibbs** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:47 pm

I uploaded some pictures of my display that show the smile effect in the lower right corner of the screen. The dark band extends approximately halfway up the screen (though it fades with time). My prior T60p showed the same behavior so I am uncertain whether or not this is within the specification for this display.

The images are taken with the entire display set to black using PC-Doctor. I apologize for the poor image quality.

[Warning: Links to images]

http://tinyurl.com/zlzkc

http://tinyurl.com/pv9cc

http://tinyurl.com/jj3ks

http://tinyurl.com/gfwz8

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you.

own6volvos · #13 Post by **own6volvos** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:03 pm

Your smiley's are looking a heck of a lot like a distorted LCD from bent hinges or almost like someone sat on the thing. Are you using any sort of case with these laptops? If so.. is it overly tight fitting?

Also, are those pictures inverted in color?

gibbs · #14 Post by **gibbs** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:19 pm

own6volvos wrote:Your smiley's are looking a heck of a lot like a distorted LCD from bent hinges or almost like someone sat on the thing. Are you using any sort of case with these laptops? If so.. is it overly tight fitting?

This laptop has never been in a case (nor was the previous laptop). It has been sitting on my desk since it has arrived. I would estimate that I have only opened and closed the lid 12-15 times since it has been in my possession. I have treated it pretty gingerly. The external shipping box that it arrived in was in rough shape, however the internal box appeared to be intact.

own6volvos wrote: Also, are those pictures inverted in color?

The pictures do not have the color inverted. The "smile" is darker than the background color. The pictures were taken in low lighting conditions without a flash (this seemed to provide enough contrast to convey the effect). I am not much of a photographer and I had to borrow the camera from a colleague. If anyone has any suggestions for taking a better image, please let me know.

own6volvos · #15 Post by **own6volvos** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:40 pm

gibbs wrote:
own6volvos wrote:Your smiley's are looking a heck of a lot like a distorted LCD from bent hinges or almost like someone sat on the thing. Are you using any sort of case with these laptops? If so.. is it overly tight fitting?
This laptop has never been in a case (nor was the previous laptop). It has been sitting on my desk since it has arrived. I would estimate that I have only opened and closed the lid 12-15 times since it has been in my possession. I have treated it pretty gingerly. The external shipping box that it arrived in was in rough shape, however the internal box appeared to be intact.

own6volvos wrote: Also, are those pictures inverted in color?
The pictures do not have the color inverted. The "smile" is darker than the background color. The pictures were taken in low lighting conditions without a flash (this seemed to provide enough contrast to convey the effect). I am not much of a photographer and I had to borrow the camera from a colleague. If anyone has any suggestions for taking a better image, please let me know.

The picture itself is fine. Gets the point across about it, just weird colors.

Were both boxes in rough shape? Flex and tweak the frame of the screen, and see if the marks change.

gibbs · #16 Post by **gibbs** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:18 pm

own6volvos wrote: Were both boxes in rough shape?

The external shipping container for the second Thinkpad I received appeared to have been crushed and torn on one side. In both cases the internal boxes that held the Thinkpads were undamaged.

own6volvos wrote: Flex and tweak the frame of the screen, and see if the marks change.

Flexing the frame of the screen does not appear to noticeably alter the marks. The darker areas on the screen vary in intensity and fade over time (5-15 minutes) leading me to believe that it is something other than strain caused by the hinges.

The effect is subtle, but I have asked several other people to take a look at it and all agree that it is certainly noticeable. It is more apparent under low light conditions and when switching between light and dark images. I recently discovered that a white cursor leaves latent images on the lower half of the screen when the background is set to black.

Unfortunately I do not know anyone else that has a display with this technology. I have never encountered this behavior in a LCD before. I do not see it when using a 5-year-old Dell Inspiron with a 15" XGA+ display.

gibbs · #17 Post by **gibbs** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:37 pm

[UPDATE]

I think that the problem that I am experiencing is related to the (very) low ambient light levels in my primary work environment. The effect is not as noticeable in a brightly-lit environment. (Note: I took the pictures posted above with the lights off). Perhaps it is not a problem for the majority of users, though I have a hard time believing that others would not find it noticeable (and possibly irritating).

Thanks to all of those who read and responded to my original post.

own6volvos · #18 Post by **own6volvos** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:35 pm

Mine arrived today, and I will be playing with it in maybe 1-2 hours

I will have lots of high res pics up of whatever my laptop is showing on the lower half

own6volvos · #19 Post by **own6volvos** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:39 pm

Going over mine I think I might see what you are seeing. If you are looking at a downward angle on a dark/black screen, the LCD has somewhat of a discolored "halo" hue near the corners, and also extending upwards maybe an inch of so from the corner to the middle of the screen in direction. Side to side/up and down it goes maybe 2-3" right and up.

I think this might just be somewhat the grain of the display.

So far my impression of this laptop is "Why did I pay so much for this?". I know it is better than most of the competition, but it still has flaws I noticed from the last T60. The left hinge still has a bit of play you can feel with your fingers, and you can watch it "give" some when you open and close the screen. The intel wireless card is also a PITA with and without Access Connections. It is putting up a fight getting onto my wireless network, sometimes just hanging indefinately in the process of connecting. Mind you this is one floor down from the router, or 10 feet away in the next room. Heck, my dad's Palm TX connects better than this. And when it does finally connect, its signal strength is pretty bad.

I am almost tempted to go to the Apple store with this in hand, and see how it compares. Maybe if I see the macbook smoking from heat, and the discolored palmrests my views might shift a bit

gibbs · #20 Post by **gibbs** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:50 pm

own6volvos wrote:Mine arrived today, and I will be playing with it in maybe 1-2 hours I will have lots of high res pics up of whatever my laptop is showing on the lower half

I am glad to hear that your new laptop arrived and I hope you are having fun putting it through its paces. If you find time, would you mind taking a look at it under low light conditions?

I tried to capture the pixel persistence effect in a photo, but I found it hard to photograph a "black" LCD screen. Here is a photo of my display when it is set to black. The arrow points to the corner of a window that was open on the Desktop before the display was set to black. (The white crosshairs to the left of the arrow is just the cursor.) The picture is not very good, but I think it shows that there is a difference in color at the window interface. The effect is more dramatic in person, but perhaps I am being too picky?

[Warning: Link to photo]
http://tinyurl.com/g75l8

Right now, I am trying to decide if I wouldn't be happier with a 14.1" SXGA+ display. Your input would be appreciated since you have experience with both displays. I imagined that the Flexview was a no-brainer for me since the reported contrast is so high.

Thanks again for taking a look at this. I hope that your new laptop meets your expectations in every way.

#21 Post by **Kyocera** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:54 pm

own6volvos:

The intel wireless card is also a PITA with and without Access Connections. It is putting up a fight getting onto my wireless network, sometimes just hanging indefinately in the process of connecting. Mind you this is one floor down from the router, or 10 feet away in the next room. Heck, my dad's Palm TX connects better than this. And when it does finally connect, its signal strength is pretty bad.

I hear you on this. I switched my router to "G-only" and it helped a little. I also agree with the rest of your post, I think maybe we're spoiled from the quality of our previous thinkpads and were maybe expecting a little more? I definately like the overall look and feel of mine, the screen is fantastic.

gibbs · #22 Post by **gibbs** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:05 pm

Sorry, I missed this post.

own6volvos wrote:Going over mine I think I might see what you are seeing. If you are looking at a downward angle on a dark/black screen, the LCD has somewhat of a discolored "halo" hue near the corners, and also extending upwards maybe an inch of so from the corner to the middle of the screen in direction. Side to side/up and down it goes maybe 2-3" right and up. I think this might just be somewhat the grain of the display.

This makes sense to me. I think that I am just more sensitive to it because of my work environment.

own6volvos wrote: So far my impression of this laptop is "Why did I pay so much for this?".

I think that I would not not be so picky if I had paid $1000 less.

own6volvos wrote: I am almost tempted to go to the Apple store with this in hand, and see how it compares. Maybe if I see the macbook smoking from heat, and the discolored palmrests my views might shift a bit

I was actually trying to make a "switch" from Mac to PC. I bought this computer to fill the gap to give the Apple time to work out the bugs in their Intel transition. I felt that this machine would allow me to make a fair comparison.

Things I really like about the Thinkpad (and wish Apple would change):

(1) Hot-swap drive.

(2) Thinkpad Protection.

(3) >1 button mouse (Trackpoint/trackpad/take your pick).

(4) Availability of a dock.

(5) Much more configurable.

Things I like about the Mac:

(1) There are thousands of Mac users that will complain louder than I will if there is ANY type of problem.

own6volvos · #23 Post by **own6volvos** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:17 pm

gibbs wrote:
(1) There are thousands of Mac users that will complain louder than I will if there is ANY type of problem.

HA! They will just convince anyone that asks that it is perfectly normal, and it is supposed to act that way.

gibbs · #24 Post by **gibbs** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:39 am

own6volvos wrote:
HA! They will just convince anyone that asks that it is perfectly normal, and it is supposed to act that way.

Granted. (Though I doubt that many would be happy about applying black electrical tape to the batteries in their laptops to stop them from jiggling.)

I expected that the build tolerances for the Thinkpad would be much tighter than I have observed (especially for this model--it is loaded). Maybe I should apply black electrical tape to my display?

own6volvos, have you taken your thermal gun to the Apple store?

own6volvos · #25 Post by **own6volvos** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:37 pm

This weekend. I am thinking about buying a fleet of mac mini's for my house, and that will be one of the concerns. Key thing for me is low power, and low heat. Core Duo fits the bill, but no other company uses the laptop chips in desktop settings (does it in a way better than those AOpen ripoffs).

I wonder if they will make me leave the store though

own6volvos · #26 Post by **own6volvos** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:57 pm

I was going over the pictures I took of the first T60 I got, and noticed that where the backlight leakage was erupting from lower left corner, it is doing the same on the new T60p. Not as extensive yet, but almost identical pattern. It is like the hinge puts stress and pinches the screen in that area or something.

Here is the worse of it on the first laptop. This area you can see somewhat discolor and tweak when opening and closing the screen, so maybe the hinges put stress right in that spot?

Below are really compressed jpegs (6k and 8k) 56k friendly

http://www.uwm.edu/~keobrien/laptop/left_hinge.JPG

http://www.uwm.edu/~keobrien/laptop/right_hinge.JPG

gibbs · #27 Post by **gibbs** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:58 pm

own6volvos wrote: Here is the worse of it on the first laptop. This area you can see somewhat discolor and tweak when opening and closing the screen, so maybe the hinges put stress right in that spot?

Below are really compressed jpegs (6k and 8k) 56k friendly
http://www.uwm.edu/~keobrien/laptop/left_hinge.JPG

http://www.uwm.edu/~keobrien/laptop/right_hinge.JPG

Thanks for the photos, own6volvos. Does anyone know if this is a common issue with Thinkpads? I hope not. I really love the feel of the hinges. I have RMAed my T60p and am debating what to do next. I may just try to limp along until Apple and Lenovo release their Memron products. Its been over 2 months since I placed the original order anyway.

T60p: Problem with Flexview display

T60p: Problem with Flexview display

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