Thinkpads Forum

I recently picked up a 15" MacBook Pro, mostly because of the screen. I chose the "glossy" screen because it was so bright and had excellent color. I'm taking it back because of really excessive heat (hot enough to be very uncomfortable sitting it on your lap).

Anyway, what I wanted to ask people was how the 15" T60p's screen compares to the screen on the MBP. The things that really stood out for me on the MBP's screen were:

- glossy finish, which reduces the "shimmer" that sometimes affects LCDs
- very bright (as bright as a desktop LCD easily)
- excellent color reproduction, some LCDs look faded or washed out
- deep blacks, even at full brightness (not washed out or gray)


The MBP (Core Duo 2.16GHz) is a really, really fast machine (almost 2x faster than my 3.2GHz P4 desktop at work, at least for running development builds). I mostly got the MBP because I could run OSX for photo stuff and because I could run Linux for development. Now I'm thinking that maybe a T60p is a better bet (can still run photo apps in Windows or via VMWare, etc) and it won't burn my legs and has a two-button mouse (a real annoyance with the MBP). I assume that the T60p would be just as fast given they use the same CPU.


I read this review ( http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2864 ) of the T60p and the screen looks pretty nice, but I wanted to ask other people, especially if they have side-by-side comparisons of the MBP and the 15" T60p.


thanks for your input,

A few notes since I was looking into similar options recently:

Some people may tell you that you are comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended). I actually came pretty close to buying a MacBook pro myself but decided that for my needs, the ThinkPad was better and probably more reliable. I am sure that the Apple is a fine machine and if I had money to burn I would have one of those just for the heck of it and use it for movie editing and some music application.

Then again: I needed a laptop for serious business and not for play (which the ThinkPad does surprisingly well on top of everything else).

Mac OS is non-standard. I am sure there are ways to make things work, but that takes time and may cost additional money. We may hate Microsoft and some of the flaws of Windows but then again, there is no way around it. And: it is really not THAT bad. I actually like XP. Call me crazy. Native Linux is an alternative though still a pain also - especially so on a ThinkPad it seems, at least for the average user who can't get rid of Windows and wants to keep the RescuePartition. VMware does that job pretty well, though Mac OS is not really an option there. It works but is slow and just something to show that, yes, it's possible.

As far as the hardware goes, you are looking at two differnt animals indeed. I actually did not like the Mac screen really, especially not the glossy one. The screen, the heat and battery issues, the dumb Mac keyboard, the absence of a PCMCIA slot and the still existing problems with running XP were the deciding factors.

I would not say that the ThinkPad screens are the best ever, but they do the job. I actually even went with the 14" SXGA+ because of the nicer form factor. The size difference between the 15" and 14" felt so marginal that I liked the lower weight and smaller size better. The resolution is much higher than on the Macs which takes a little while to get used to but is very pleasant and useful. I am certainly not a fan of the widescreens and the TP is one of the few remaining alternatives with a "professional" screen size for work and not for watching DVDs

Well, a couple comments:

- MacOS certainly is non-standard. I hadn't used a Mac in years, and it's come a long way. However, there are some really glaring usability issues there (at least for me). The one thing they do very well is pay attention to color calibration, etc. The only thing I am using it for is running Aperture (a "pro" photo management app), and it does that quite well.

- I've used Linux almost exclusively for the last 10 years, at work and at home. I really, really prefer it to Windows -- XP just bugs me. Also, I doubt running Linux on the ThinkPad would be an issue, given that Lenovo recenly committed to shipping Linux on the T60p ( http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7778908329.html ) I've been able to run Linux on every laptop I've owned (various Dells, a few Sonys, the MacBook Pro, etc, etc).

- OS virtualization is actually *very* fast on the new Core CPUs from Intel. They have the new "VT" feature, which means that the virualization work is almost all done in hardware, making for a very minor speed decrese compared to dual-boot, etc. However, I would probably still configure a dual-boot instead of running XP inside a VM (generally better driver support that way).


The 14.1" screen you've got has a much lower contrast and brightness than the 15" -- at least according to manufacturer's specs. Your mileage may vary, but according to the specs the 15" is "better"

Also, no offense, but a screen that "gets the job done" is really not what I'm looking for if I'm going to spend $3K on a laptop. I'm a semi-serious photographer and am very picky about screens.

Anwyay, thanks for the info.... I do agree that the 14.1" form factor is more appealing than the 15", but given the 15" screen being brighter and having a higher contrast I'd go with that.

I think the resolution is what got me. I own a now outdated 15" T42p, but the IPS screens may be somewhat similar, 1600x1200 ....

Regardless, ill never buy a laptop with less resolution than this IPS screen, I absolutely think they are fantastic. I have my T42p running Ubuntu now and had Gentoo in the past (Gentoo took too long to release network manager, grrrr...) and everything has worked flawlessly under both distributions.

I use VMware to run internet explorer to watch my classes and everything else is peaches Contraversly, I was inches from buying a 17" mac but then realized I could not one mouse button and barfy video drivers (no ati-fglrx for PPC, this of course has changed now).

You're absolutely right. It is all a matter of what your needs are. As a semi-pro photographer I would ceratainly look at other computers too.

What you are referring to as far as the "brighter"and "better" 15" screen is concerned, you probably mean the "flexview" technology. It's slightly better but does not reallt make that much of a difference when compared directly. But since you are a pro photographer, I am sure that every bit of a quality increase counts. It's also a question of the work environment. The glossy screens are nicer in a neutral or darker room. Under neonlights or similar lightsources, I find them painfull because of the reflexions.

The other thing to make sure is that you are actually getting a flexview screen. I noticed that there is a lot of misleading and conflicting information floating around. Some people may tell you that all 15" screens have "flexview" technology others may tell you it's not available at all anylonger. Both does not seem to be true. Since I was buying mine through an academic program, the package with the 15" did not come with "flexview" anyway. However, on the T60p models it should still be available.

The other issues: if you are very familiar with Linux, you should be able to set it up right. It certainly works for the most part from what you can read here. But it is tricky to install a dual boot system due to some of the specifics of ThinkPad machines depending if you want to keep some of the machine's features functional or not. I played around with it for a while and then gave up because I don't understand Linux well enough yet.
In VM ware Linux runs nicely. OS X does not. It's slow at least with the known cracked version for VMware.

Based on what you seem to look for, I may suggest having another look at some of the upscale Sony machnines. I liked those too only the academic discount was not really an option there.

Good luck.

thinktank wrote: The other thing to make sure is that you are actually getting a flexview screen. I noticed that there is a lot of misleading and conflicting information floating around. Some people may tell you that all 15" screens have "flexview" technology others may tell you it's not available at all anylonger. Both does not seem to be true. Since I was buying mine through an academic program, the package with the 15" did not come with "flexview" anyway. However, on the T60p models it should still be available.

...

Based on what you seem to look for, I may suggest having another look at some of the upscale Sony machnines. I liked those too only the academic discount was not really an option there.

Good luck.

Interesting... I had not heard that the FlexView wasn't on all 15" screens. Is there any way to tell from the model number? I was looking at the 200793U.

I agree with your comment on the lighting and glossy screens... I usually work in fairly low-light environments, but there's still noticable glare.

The Sony machines are really nice, but unless you get the 17" ones, the screen is (I think) 1280x800 which is too low a resolution for development work. I'll have to take another look at those.

thanks,

thinktank wrote:As a semi-pro photographer I would ceratainly look at other computers too.

What "other computers" are of interest?

thinktank wrote:What you are referring to as far as the "brighter"and "better" 15" screen is concerned, you probably mean the "flexview" technology. It's slightly better but does not reallt make that much of a difference when compared directly.

What is this statement and judgement based on? Direct comparison to what?

I have (in the new 60 series models) every size, resolution and some ThinkPads with the IPS Flexview technology to compare to one another. I find the Flexview a significant advancement.

As far as I know, all the 15in SXGA (1400x1050) and UXGA (1600x1200) models come with a flexview panel. On the other hand, none of the 14.1in models nor the 15in XGA model have a flexview option.

Since I yet have to order my 15in SXGA T60, I can't really be certain, but all reviews I've read state that the flexview screen is far superior to the regular panels. I decided on the 15in model because of this difference (better colors, etc.)

archer6 wrote:

thinktank wrote:As a semi-pro photographer I would ceratainly look at other computers too.

What "other computers" are of interest?

If you really want the glossy screen, I would look at Fujitsu computers, but as a photographer as well, I would personally avoid glossy screens as they give me headaches from the glare and reflections

ischg wrote:As far as I know, all the 15in SXGA (1400x1050) and UXGA (1600x1200) models come with a flexview panel. On the other hand, none of the 14.1in models nor the 15in XGA model have a flexview option.

Since I yet have to order my 15in SXGA T60, I can't really be certain, but all reviews I've read state that the flexview screen is far superior to the regular panels. I decided on the 15in model because of this difference (better colors, etc.)

You are completely correct here. Once you see the Flexview you will be thrilled! I was very pleasantly surprized the first time I saw the Flexview on the 15" T60 I ordered, simply stunning.

beavo451 wrote:

archer6 wrote: What "other computers" are of interest?

If you really want the glossy screen, I would look at Fujitsu computers, but as a photographer as well, I would personally avoid glossy screens as they give me headaches from the glare and reflections

I was just curious what the author of the post had as an interest in other computers.

Myself, I am a very serious "amateur" photographer and _do not like_ the glossy screens. While I do agree under limited conditions there are times when they appear to display good color saturation, clarity and an impressive image, they simply reflect too much for my liking.

I have a 15" Flexscreen/IPS T60p, and I'm extremely happy about it.

On all the notebooks that seem to come out today they use a widescreen, mid-res, glossy screen. I think all these characteristics suck. I am soooo happy that my thinkpad and its 4:3, matte, 1600x1200 screen.

In terms of design I think widescreen notebooks are ugly, especially when the screen-frame is very large in order to fit the computer once you close the lid, you know, where you get more plastic than screen in the lid. A 4:3 laptop just looks better, it looks more compact and less bulky.
Agreed that widescreen is handy in Photoshop etc, but on a 1600x1200 screen the toolsbars aren't really in the way.

The 1600*1200 resolution totally rocks! I've used 1024*768 forever. This is actually my first machine with such a resolution. I cannot live without it anymore. I rarely maximize applicatons/screens anymore, just no need to, thus you can take more advantage of the 'window system' as opposed to always Alt-Tabbing your way through opened windows.
Fonts are very readable, and I have them set at normal size. I do a lot of AutoCAD/Maya/Photoshop, and I just cant live without this resolution anymore.

The matte finish is very comfortable. I truly dont understand why people would want to buy a glossy screen, its totally useless once you're close to a window or bright artificial ight,let alone outside. On bright monitor settings, and a not too bright sun, I can actually use my thinkpad outside (and with the 5hr+ battery time it's a blessing).
Another thing about glossy screens is, that I dont trust the colors. It saturates everything too much. Sure it looks awesome on your screen, but once you print it, or give your work to someone else, you see that you've been faked. And if you're a photographer, you know how important true color representation is.

But there are some sidenotes so these praisings. The most important is that I am not at all impressed with the deepness of the black of my screen. Altough you need an oldfashioned CRT for deep black, I've seen better blacks (mostly in glossy screens). The black is not grey at all, but not deep black either.

And on the bottom of the screen there seems to be some darker spots. Hardly noticable in black, noticable in white backgrounds, but only if you're looking for it. It doesnt bother me at all, and I'm picky.

There is very, very little light leackage, and zero dead/stuck/bright pixels. The whites are very white, and very bright, probably too bright in dark rooms.

So to sum it up:

Pros:
- 4:3 screeen as opposed to 16:9 widescreen
- Matte finish is usable everywhere, not just dark area's
- 1600x1200 is amazing, and improves your workflow
- Flexview, no more adjusting the screen to fit your heads position
- Very bright white.
- No stuck/dead/bright pixels in my screen
- Very, very little light leackage.

Cons:
- Black isnt really black
- Some darker area's on the bottom of the screen (hardly noticeable).

Ok, thats my T60(p) screen review. I dont know anything about the MBP screen, so cant help you on that one.

Hey, thanks for all the comments... this has helped quite a bit.

I think at this point it's down to a 15" ThinkPad T60p, or an HP nc8430 -- both are 2.16GHz, 100GB, etc, etc -- the HP is a 15.4" widescreen at 1680x1050 and the ThinkPad is a 1600x1200. We'll see...

thanks again,

Speaking not as a photographer but as a human being - i would advise you not to get a glossy screen.

I do like apple machines but even the pro versions I get the impression that form is more important than function, if i was a home user I'm sure I would opt for one but as I use my system for work and play then the trackpoint, keyboard, battery options, removal drives, pc card slot and the screen (unless you do video or spreadsheets i'm still not convinced that widescreen is better) are all important to me so they rule a macbook out - i honestly don't understand why people have a dilemma deciding between widescreen and 4:3 systems, i'd definitely pick the format i wanted and then choose within that criteria.

Its worth noting that you actually have more screen space (pixel wise) on a UXGA thinkpad than the Hp one or even the 17" Macbook Pro. I admit that the 300 nit brightness is impressive but in all honestly the 200 is fine for me and seems quite bright (i've not actually seen a macbook pro screen)

Yeah, I definately get the same impression from Apple that function is not as important as form. Here's a couple things that bug me about the current MacBook Pro:


- extremely hard to replace the HD. You need to dismantle the machine to get at the HD, not just unscrew some panel. I think they will fix this (the HD in the MacBook is easy to replace) but at this point you're stuck.

- The screen does not open all the way, it opens maybe 120 degrees or so.

- One button mouse. I get the impression that Apple refuses to put a two or three button mouse on the laptops because they havn't in the past, and that adding one now would be like admitting defeat or something. They sell multi-button external mice, but they don't put them on the laptops. People say you can control-click to get the right button (which is true in OSX) but still, that's just lame.

- No ports on the back, everything is on the sides. I found this annoyting when I tried to hold the machine between my knees (could not put it on my lap because it is so hot)

- It's very hot. Very, very hot. There's a large vent on the back sorta under the screen hinge, but I assume they didn't want to put some "ugly" vent on the side. According to Apple, the case is "designed" to be a heat sink, but that doesn't seem like a very good idea. Even the keyboard and the handrest portion of the case got hot after an hour of work -- and that was on a desk (Apple suggests using the machine only on a flat surface because too little airflow on the bottom of the case can cause the machine to overheat (!!) -- so no using it on the lap or on a pillow or whatever.



I will say they do get some things very right. The "MagSafe" power cable is really cool. I had several motherboards replaced in Dell laptops years ago because the power socket damaged the board when the cord was yanked out.

For what it's worth, I just returned the MBP this afternoon and they were good about the return (charged me 10% restocking fee, but that's not too bad). They did say that a lot of people had heat problems and that their tech people were able to help, but I find that pretty hard to believe. In any case, the other nits mentioned above meant that keeping the machine was not really an option.

There's all kinds of rumors on mac fan sites that the MBP will get a case redesign in the next few months, but there's nothing concrete at all.

The whole "case is a heatsync" design is only suitable for Destop machines IMO, where you're not making yourself sterile by cooking your bollocks as you play Unreal Tournament.

Regardless, Main thing I dislike about Apple is QuickTime player... it really is useless. Sure the .Mov format is a pretty ok format... but that doens't stop QuickTime player from sucking.

auslander wrote:

thinktank wrote: The other thing to make sure is that you are actually getting a flexview screen. I noticed that there is a lot of misleading and conflicting information floating around. Some people may tell you that all 15" screens have "flexview" technology others may tell you it's not available at all anylonger. Both does not seem to be true. Since I was buying mine through an academic program, the package with the 15" did not come with "flexview" anyway. However, on the T60p models it should still be available.

...

Based on what you seem to look for, I may suggest having another look at some of the upscale Sony machnines. I liked those too only the academic discount was not really an option there.

Good luck.

Interesting... I had not heard that the FlexView wasn't on all 15" screens. Is there any way to tell from the model number? I was looking at the 200793U.



thanks,

I honestly do not know. You should double check with the store and if necessary with Lenovo. As you can see here, a lot of people believe that all 15" (SXGA+) are Flexview. That is not correct. I personally saw a T60 w/ a 15" in the store where I bought my 14" and it had had no flexview. I think it was a 200772U
I am not sure how common that is on various models. I am pretty sure though that the T60p ( 200793U) does have the screen you are looking for.

The 2007-72U which is equivalent to my 2007-72A (spec wise) does have Flexview, which can be confirmed in tabook.

archer6 wrote:[...]
What "other computers" are of interest?

[...]

What is this statement and judgement based on? Direct comparison to what?
[...] I find the Flexview a significant advancement.

No doubt, the IPS screens are very nice. And yes, I had a chance to compare a 14" SXGA+, a 15" SXGA+ (non flexview) and an older model 15" with Flexview. The Flexview is nicer. But it was not THAT much nicer that I wanted to forego the 14" formfactor.
Had there been a 14" SXGA+ Flexview I would have been willing to spend the extra bucks on that.

It comes down to personal preferences and priorities. The process of choosing a laptop was definately frustrating, as you have to spend a lot of money on something that in the end is always some sort of a compromise.

thinktank wrote:As you can see here, a lot of people believe that all 15" (SXGA+) are Flexview. That is not correct. I personally saw a T60 w/ a 15" in the store where I bought my 14" and it had had no flexview. I think it was a 200772U

I stand corrected, thanks for calling that to my attention...

I try and stay informed on not only my favorite: ThinkPad, but others as well as I'm simply a hardware geek...that likes laptops which brings me to the next question I asked. What other computers are of interest? This question because I like to hear others opinions and continue to stay open minded. Granted I am a hard core ThinkPad fan, as they have served me so very well in my mission critical work. That said, I also have PowerBooks', VAIO's, etc and hence a good appreciation for the enduring quality of the various ThinkPad components and the machine overall.

When 15" T60 ThinkPad models were first released they _ALL Had Flexview IPS displays_, however that has changed recently. Now all _entry level_ T60 models have non Flexview 15" displays and _all the upscale T60 & T60p_ models still have Flexview. So you now have a choice of either depending on the model of ThinkPad you choose.

thinktank wrote:It comes down to personal preferences and priorities. The process of choosing a laptop was definately frustrating, as you have to spend a lot of money on something that in the end is always some sort of a compromise.

I could not agree more! It really is about not only personal preferences, but the very challenging fact that one must compromise, and sometimes in areas that are quite important to the individual user and his/her needs. This is one of the reasons I continue to research and watch the laptop market closely, looking for the (sic) "perfect" laptop .......

Just reading through this thread and found it interesting. I've had several T series Thinkpads and several Powerbooks, now I have a Sony SZ160. Of all of the displays I've used I find the Xbrite display on the Sony SZ by far the best and most pleasing. I do quite a bit of Photoshop work on it and do not have a problem with the display being glossy. I've seen a couple of MacBook Pros with the glossy display at Apple retail stores and it seems like they might be even more glossy than the Sony Xbrite displays but it might have been the lighting.
As mentioned the T series displays are OK, if you don't compare them to anything else they are fine. It's when you see it side by side with better displays that you realize it could be better.