Thinkpads Forum

I am a long time t40 series user, and just purchased a t60p.

The weakness and flex of the wrist rest has gotten worse. Should be more beefy and stable.

The new round silver volume buttons and power on button is cheap looking and not as classy or businesslike like the t40 series.

The front end should be even more blunt (it is now less pointy than the t40 series but should be even more so) especially if it means accomodating larger 2 watt speakers, which is the industry standard and the one area where the thinkpad does not compete, spec wise.

The upper left case area near the esc and F1 key does not fit right and often snaps in and out when pressed.

Also 9 cell battery is rated at 6.5 hours but it is more like 3.5 hours, perhaps there needs to be a battery option like the HP or like the full bottom case battery for the x40 (which also provides a pitch for typing).

I expected to see the t60 series as an improvement and there was with duo core, but little else in my opinion as compared to the t40 series.

The T60 is better than the T40, there is no doubt in my mind. That said I'm not a fan of the silver buttons (although its not life or death for me) and I would like to see every angle on the system at 90 degrees so it is completely bento box shaped.

Not seen the clicking in and out issue you are reporting, there is more flex in the palm rest but I believe the reason for this is that the palm rest no longer needs to provide any strength to the system due to the roll cage so its actually a result of the system being more robust.

If your only getting 3.5 hours from the battery while typing then there is something far wrong, remember there is the ultrabay battery as well but I think you need to look at your settings/usage to optimise battery time.

I have lost enthusiasm about Thinkpad laptops after Lenovo changed the Up/Down/Mute volume keys to the silver cheap looking ones.
I disliked also that the trackpoint buttons do not have the red stripes anymore.

Hope my T42p last at least 4 years. I could make a switch to the Z series, but why good stuff always have to turn the other way around

granted, the silver buttons look absolutely ridiculous.

However, the rest of the machine is engineered A LOT better than the T4X series.

My T42p was bowed up in the rear and the fit was shoddy in many places.

My T60P looks more sturdy in comparison and the fit and finish is top notch.

The T60 is also a whole lot easier to upgrade, whereas it was a chore to swap out the T42 HDD.

benottomex wrote:I have lost enthusiasm about Thinkpad laptops after Lenovo changed the Up/Down/Mute volume keys to the silver cheap looking ones.

really.. ?
you judge a computer on whether the buttons are round or rectangles..?

for me, square or round, they perform the function..
personally, i like the round ones..

but to make a purchase decision on the shape of the button..?

such a trivial complaint seems to me to prove the overall quality is still there and has improved if you need to complain about buttons..
or, like kennethlbryant who complains about the shape of the frint edge..

benottomex wrote: I disliked also that the trackpoint buttons do not have the red stripes anymore.

a steady hand, a little practice and a couple of bottles of walmart nail polish and you can have any color trackpoint buttons you want..

benottomex wrote: Hope my T42p last at least 4 years. I could make a switch to the Z series, but why good stuff always have to turn the other way around

having had all T series, the T60p is superior, period..

if you want to judge ibm vs. lenovo on the product as represented by the T60 and X60, so far lenovo is, IMO, the winner..

********************

kennethlbryant wrote:I am a long time t40 series user, and just purchased a t60p.

The weakness and flex of the wrist rest has gotten worse. Should be more beefy and stable.

you must have a 14 inch T60p..
on my 15 inch T60p the palmrest is stiffer than on my T43p 15 inch..

kennethlbryant wrote: The front end should be even more blunt (it is now less pointy than the t40 series but should be even more so) especially if it means accomodating larger 2 watt speakers, which is the industry standard and the one area where the thinkpad does not compete, spec wise.

speakers have, since the 770, been poor on thinkpads..
you got THIS one right..

kennethlbryant wrote: The upper left case area near the esc and F1 key does not fit right and often snaps in and out when pressed.

its one piece on the 15 inch models..
so i can't comment on your problem..

have you tried removing and replacing the keyboard bezel and palmrest to check that the screws and little snaps are all working together..?
and nothing is restricting the bezel from fitting all the way "donw" so as to snap in place correctly..?

kennethlbryant wrote: Also 9 cell battery is rated at 6.5 hours but it is more like 3.5 hours, perhaps there needs to be a battery option like the HP or like the full bottom case battery for the x40 (which also provides a pitch for typing).

try running with an ultrabay battery AND the 9 cell main battery..

also, make your settings more battery friendly..

kennethlbryant wrote: I expected to see the t60 series as an improvement and there was with duo core, but little else in my opinion as compared to the t40 series.

see my remarks above..
T60 is way better than the earlier T40 series..
more "polished" in everything..
the only [censored] i have is all the bloatware..
there should be an easy way to remove all the optional stuff and retain the utilities and apps you want to keep..

I have the 15in screen and the fit and finish is not nearly as good as the T40, nothing is restricting or binding to prevent the fit on the esc and f1 function key area, just shoddy molding and case construction.

If the battery is rated at 6.5 hours I should be able to get that with max battery performance settings without having to revert to an ultrabay battery.

<insert over emotional ramblings of how Lenovo and IBM are the best things since sliced bread here>

Thinkpads are magic back boxes that come from outer space inside small silver pods with evil round buttons on the outside.

I think my T60 looks much better than my previous (my brothers previous actuley i used it for some time T42) and the silver buttons look great!

BillMorrow wrote: the only [censored] i have is all the bloatware..
there should be an easy way to remove all the optional stuff and retain the utilities and apps you want to keep..

its my main problem too - in the very next ThinkPad release (and preloads backwards compatible with current *60 systems, there will be a tool called ThinkPad Base Software Administrator which will allow you to choose exactly what parts of the system get installed when you recover the system, bye bye diskeeper.

kennethlbryant wrote: If the battery is rated at 6.5 hours I should be able to get that with max battery performance settings without having to revert to an ultrabay battery.

You would be able to get close to that, all battery quotes are based on specific test criteria which will be different from normal usage. You cannot possibly habe max battery settings right if your only getting 3.5 hours imho.

You might consider taking the buttons out and painting them black and putting them back in. And I think it would be pretty easy to "pimp up" you mouse buttons too with some fingernail polish.

My t60 is a lean mean, computin machine some suttle design changes are always going to happen, I guess it would be possible to keep a T40 going for many years to avoid these drastic changes.

Most of the issues you cite are absent/better in the 14" model, particularly the palmrest creak. I spent an hour with a roll of scotch tape trying to get the palmrest quiet on a 15" T60 and in the end never could get the area behind the fingerprint reader firm.

I'm glad my personal unit is a 14". They are tight.

-darren

It is the greatest laptop in the world but the new version could use some improvements, I hope the design team takes them to heart. I have a 200793U that I paid $3k for and it should be better than this.

For the battery issue...have you applied this hotfix:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918005

The battery life is low because of the V5200 GPU. It's a tremendous power hog. Compound that with a FlexView screen and you've got a $3k personal spaceheater!

-darren

I will look at the hotfix, but I don't really keep the computer idle and I am in max battery performance mode. As to Darren's comment and based on my experience with the T40 series, clearly there is a power issue with the T60. I hear the new Merom Duo Core processors coming out in the Spring (2007) should be better. Oh well, I guess I have a $3k paperweight.

kennethlbryant wrote:Oh well, I guess I have a $3k paperweight.

I could use a paperweight on my desk.
[Hint Hint]

The processor is actually pretty power efficient. I base that on the fact that the 2GHz processor with GMA 950 GPU gets great battery life, even with the 15" screen. The 2GHz and 2.166GHz CPUs (as well as all the T60 CPUs IIRC) run at the same 1GHz speed at idle -- the only difference between the dual-core CPUs is max multiplier.

The x1300 and x1400 use increasing amounts of power, but the V5200 is stratospheric by comparison. Underclocking seems to make little difference.

That's despite all the bluster at ATI about advanced power states built into the V5200.

I look forward to the day when ATI builds a GPU that runs cool in 2D mode (like the GMA chip) while letting loose the ponies in 3D mode. I wouldn't expect it to be a hard thing to do.

-darren

I love the black business look of my T60. Some kid in class said once, "was that thing like $500?" (meaning its not flashy like a Viao, so therefore its cheap).

Im like, "um, no."

My only complain -- I have a 14 inch model -- is that the palmrest is a little too flimsy over the card ports. Snap-creaks when I press on the edge. But that's nothing that could not get fixed with a tiny ball of "fun-tack". I *do* like the front taper of the palmrest. Definitely more comfortable. Frame rigidity is improved in general, and that's never a bad thing. My T21 was the worst on that count, my T42 was OK, but this feels good.

I agree - the palmrest over the cardslot is too flimsy, but if you compare it to a T4x it's actually slightly improved.

When the dust door is closed, that corner is plenty strong, but if a card is installed or if the door flips open a bit, it gets pretty squishy.

I get a little concerned carrying it around by that corner. I have a bad habit of carrying ThinkPads around by the left or right of the palmrest so that I can watch the screen while moving about. The corner is actually plenty strong for that since the roll cage carries the stress, not the palmrest. Still, it feels weak when depressed and one would expect more from a ThinkPad. Perhaps they will carry the rollcage over the cardslot in the next version.

-darren

....that I like very much.

At the end of "Some Like it Hot", the old millionaire character played by Joe E. Brown has a famous line. He says in response to Jack Lemmon's character's admission that he is a man (in drag pretending to be a woman), "Well, nobody's perfect!"

This bit of movie history is meant as a lead-in to these comments:

All products (and people) have shortcomings, issues, problems, and imperfections. The real value of anything is in the eye of the beholder. More to the point, since the subject is a computer products, one might say that the shortcomings of the T60 are in the eye of the beholder. It's interesting that all of the people who have commented on the minor flaws of the T60 (a few of which I agree are less-than-deal designs) always make some sort of statement that compares the "flawed" T60 to their (presumably) beloved T40-series model. ("Ah, the T60 has nothing over my T43....it has a squeaky, flimsy palmrest!")

Well, to those who focus on such things, I'd like to say this:

Nothing lasts forever, nobody's perfect, and perhaps the proof is in the pudding (and sales). When a T99 or T1000 arrives, perhaps it will be "perfect". Until then, we have the realities of life to deal with, including the need to buy new laptops to replace older ones (in my case, my T60 replaces my beloved 600X which is still going strong as my "backup" machine).

Permit me one final word:

Of course, the joke at the end of "Some Like it Hot" is that there was nothing that the character played by Jack Lemmon (his name was "Jerry") would like more than to marry a millionaire (he says so in the film). For him to unexpectantly find a millionaire who would accept his "slight imperfections" seemed like a perfect ending to a nearly-perfect comedy. And an enduring commentary on the choices we make in life.

Don't you all agree?

(BTW, I hope this posting is taken in the spirit in which it was meant: not to offend, merely to comment on the realities of the choices--and the compromises--we all have to make in life.)

The mic sensitivity is also worse with the T60 than the T40.

In addition, the design engineers moved the mic closer to the speakers (almost on top of them) with the T40 series it was at the top of the keyboard away from the speakers. I question the judgment of the relocation when everyone is moving towards VOIP, now it is impossible to use the T60 without a headset (too much echo and feedback). With the T40 series, the mic worked great with the speakers (not over powering each other).

The problem is that all the old design features were better and there was no reason for the change other than to justify a new model and sell a new battery and mini dock style. It is a pure rip off.

You sound like a broken record.

If the design feature is not an improvement, LEAVE IT ALONE!

You are not getting the point.

I would prefer you not reply if you don't have something constructive to add.

kennethlbryant wrote:I would prefer you not reply if you don't have something constructive to add.

Fortunately, different people have different opinions and are allowed to voice them around here for the most part.

Having said that, let me share something that you might find constructive. The design team at Lenovo have a blog at http://www.lenovoblogs.com/design/ and are participating in dialogs with users. Are they really listening to what's said? Only time will tell, but a well-reasoned comment might pique their interest.

I did find that site, I don't know how to use a blog.

At the end of each blog entry, there's a line that looks similar to this one:

Posted in some category | xx Comments » | Link

Click on the Comments link, and you'll come to a page where you can read comments other readers have left about that particular entry and where you can leave your own comment.

While I was very fond of the look of the red trim on the mouse buttons and the shape of the power/volume buttons, that consideration is not as important as several other aspects of the machine.

Regarding T40 vs T60, as the owner of both, there is simply no contest. The T60 is so far superior that it's not even close. When one steps back and takes a look at the overall picture taking into consideration the entire computer, there is nothing out there that compares to the stellar design, materials, functionality, reliability, and performance of the new 60 series ThinkPads.

I just prefer constructive type stuff, of course this is a free country and people can just yack for the heck of it, but I view these forums as resources so I look for tips and techniques and constructive feedback.

Having said that, thanks for showing me how to respond to the blog, I entered everything in, and I hope the Lenovo design people take note.

Now that is constructive all around! For me, for you, and hopefully for them!

Thanks for your help.

kennethlbryant wrote:I have the 15in screen and the fit and finish is not nearly as good as the T40, nothing is restricting or binding to prevent the fit on the esc and f1 function key area, just shoddy molding and case construction.

If the battery is rated at 6.5 hours I should be able to get that with max battery performance settings without having to revert to an ultrabay battery.

<rechecking fit and finish of my 200794U>
perfect fit and wonderful finish..
nothing loose or "popping" in or out..
solid like my old 755CDV..

i suggest that you do not drop your thinkpad as this tends to make things a bit "off"..

perhaps we should set up a realtime test..?
invoke all power saving and let two thinkpads run down to 1% battery and time it..?

(do this on the soon to be recalled sony cell batteries so as not to prematurely age the sanyo cell battery)..


besides, anyone with any experience with ANY battery powered device will know that manufacturer runtime specs will almost always be overstated..