Thinkpads Forum

Guys/Girls ,

I`m looking for a notebook for several weeks now and it seems that my quest has come to an end. To make sure I dont miss any important ponits im asking you for your advice about the following T60:

Specs:

14,1" SXGA+ TFT (1400x1050)
Core Duo T2500 2x 2.00GHz
1024MB RAM
100GB HDD
DVD+/-RW DL
ATI Mobility Radeon X1400

What do I need it for:

- First and foremost, MS Office (mainly Excel and PP, some Access)
- other Office Software
- Traveling around with me in Trains and Cars (I´m not driving so I want to use it) for about 2 hours a day, sometimes significantly more.
- Minor game activities like WoW or other MMORPGs

What do I expect:

- Superior product quality
- Superior customer service
- Maximum reliability
- Ability to handle the games named above at a acceptable level
- High mobility

I read a few (at least) concerning posts about this T60 and I hope you can help me with my decision by answering the following questions:

- Are there still issues with the fan going non stop (at 3000+ RBM) even in idle or MS Office?

- I read in a post that the IBM T60 series caused the highest (relative) amount of complaints about product quality of all Thinkpad series. Is the quality of the T60 still as good as it was before Lenovo stepped up ?

- I heard many descriptions for the display (varying from poor to outstanding). Is the display able to perform good in an evironement with changing lightning conditions? Since I will get the 14" I cant get a Flexviewdisplay. Are the SXGA+ displays bright enough or are the considered too dark ?

Did I miss any Points?

I would very much appreciate your answers. Help me become a proud member of the T60 family



Regards

Peter

The T60 is an awesome system, very tough, very well built.

Problems usually arise when people DON'T use the factory preload. DO NOT reinstall XP, except with the factory recovery CD's

For games that do a lot of 3d rendering, consider getting a T60p...a little more expensive due to higher speced graphics card

New T60's with Merom processors announce mid Oct.

Look at both the 15" and 14" T60p's...although the 15" weigh more, the bigger screen panel is very nice...especially the ones that can do 1600x1200....

specs on current Thinkpads are here (not the Oct ones, though):
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitu ... tabook.pdf

take a hard look at pg 43 of 130

I recommend finding a T60 to look at in person before making your purchase.

The 14.1" SXGA screen on the T60 is the worst part of the system. I am using mine now, and right next to me is my friend's Sony S660P. The Sony screen is much nicer to use, even though it has a slightly larger pixel size, and even though the Sony system is a generation behind. My T60's screen must be positioned at _just_ the right angle in order to get clear text--moving your head 15 degrees in any direction will result in blurry/thick text.

If I played WoW and other games, I would be concerned that the LCD might not have good enough response time, more than I would worry about whether or not the ATI X1400 is fast enough.

Similarly, I think that the T2500 is robably faster than necessary. I have a T2400 and it is fine for everything I do (software development), considering that there was a huge difference in price between T2400 and T2500 when I bought mine.

The T60 is not a particularly mobile system--it is not light or small, despite claims here to the contrary. When it comes to which one I would carry around, I would choose my friend's S660P over my T60, and the S660P isn't that light either. If I had to carry around a computer 2+ hours a day then I would get something smaller than both, like an X60.

My T60 does get good battery life for its size with the 9-cell battery. The T60 often lasts around 4 hours, 3 hours if i am really working, or 5 hours if I am hardly using it. The S660P often lasts just 2 hours, by comparison. If battery life was a critical factor, then I would probably go with an X60 instead. If you do go with the T60, I recommend getting the 9-cell battery since you mentioned that you will be using it on battery power for hours at a time. You might also want to get the combo power adapter so you can plug it into your car's cigarette lighter for power.

The best thing about the T60 is the keyboard. I tried to use the S660P to do some work (programming) and the lack of dedicated home/end/pgup/pgdn keys drove me nuts. The T60 not only has all the keys I need, they are located in great positions and the keys feel very nice to use. The keyboard is basically the sole reason I chose a ThinkPad over other brands.

The T60 is sturdier than some systems but it is not perfect. The back cover of the LCD flexes too much, and the main part of the system gives a little when you pick up the system with one hand. As far as flexing goes, the T60 is no better than my old Dell D820; the Sony S660P does not perceptibly flex at all.

I recommend getting the RAM as 1x1GB instead of 1x515MB if possible, so you can upgrade it later.

I'dconsider purchasing an x60. I used to own T series but X60 is much nicer to carry around, especially if using in car/train/etc. Only thing to check is performance of graphics processor for your games.

QQs wrote:Guys/Girls ,
What do I need it for:

- First and foremost, MS Office (mainly Excel and PP, some Access)
- other Office Software
- Traveling around with me in Trains and Cars (I´m not driving so I want to use it) for about 2 hours a day, sometimes significantly more.
- Minor game activities like WoW or other MMORPGs

I just got T60 SXGA+ for the same reasons that you just described above. Notice that Office applicatoins will run well in almost any laptop as they are not very resource demanding. I don't travel in trains but i go to lectures for 2-3 hour a day and take my computer there. I also do minor gaming. The T60 SXGA+ that i got fulfills all of these expectations very well. It's light enough to walk around, campus ( notice i have a huge campus). I never ran out of battery life when i took it to my lecutres. The 1400 ATI gives you 128MB and up to 512MB total of hypermemory. This is good enough for my gaming needs but that depends on your taste. 128MB will play almost all games that are in market right now at least on minimus requirements.

QQs wrote:Guys/Girls ,
What do I expect:

- Superior product quality
- Superior customer service
- Maximum reliability
- Ability to handle the games named above at a acceptable level
- High mobility

I read a few (at least) concerning posts about this T60 and I hope you can help me with my decision by answering the following questions:

- I read in a post that the IBM T60 series caused the highest (relative) amount of complaints about product quality of all Thinkpad series. Is the quality of the T60 still as good as it was before Lenovo stepped up ?

t60 is my first thinkpad. The build quality is very good compared to other notebooks. I had a apple notebook which had leaking screen on all four coreners, sticking out battery and space key, the screen was detached from the screen frame, it flexed whenever you touched it and it was a true heater. Before apple i had toshiba which also had some flexing but a LOT less, the screen did not leak at all and the keyboard was just OK. Now that thinkpad i just got right now has:
1. screen is bright and leaks very very lightly in one corner (this oculd be only single case in my machine). The SXGA+ give you a lot of space when browsing the web and it is good for typing when you increase the font size. I also downloaded ClearType from microsoft to improve the font quality on my T60.
2. customer service is far from superior in lenovo from what i have experianced. you tend to get reps who are either rude and unprofessional or who are very very polity and know what they are doing (notice i only talked to 3 reps)
3. the quality of my T60 compared to my toshiba and apple is supperior in almost every respect. The tinly leak on the right corner is the only factor that distinquishes it from toshiba, but again this could by only my computer. The leak is also nothing compared to the bleeding screen that i had on ibook. the keyboard is very good but everyone knows that already. The screen flexes when you punch it with your hand. Otherwise it is very strong. The buttons on the T60 seem kind of cheap when you look at them but they are nothing like that when you use them. They actually feel firm.

QQs wrote:Guys/Girls ,
- I heard many descriptions for the display (varying from poor to outstanding). Is the display able to perform good in an evironement with changing lightning conditions? Since I will get the 14" I cant get a Flexviewdisplay. Are the SXGA+ displays bright enough or are the considered too dark ?

The screen type is nothing but your personal choice. Personally i can't stand the mirror kind of glossy screen. It hurts my eyes. I would recommand you go to some store and compare different types of screens and see which ones you like the most. Also read a little bit about them beforehand and don't get lurked into buying glossy just because it looks good, make sure it doesn't hurt your eyes.

Thank you very much for the link john, i checked it and found out that the 14,1" SXGA+ has only 150 nits compared to the 200nits of the Flexviews. Thats bad news for me

I will have to check that in a Thinkpad Center asap to see if it has a chance in hard lightning conditions. The 15" Displays are no option for me though, i would switch the brand before changing the screensize. 14" is just about perfekt for me with a res of 1440x1050.

Brian, your post convinced me to go to the Thinkpad Center tomorrow and check them out myself Thanks for giving me tips what to check and what to ask for. Funny thing is i thought about buying an Apple aswell, thats history since I heard they are having serious issues with their intelMacs. Rumors have it though that a new series of MBPros is on the way to the stores.

Dfumento sad to say but the X Series is not an option for me. But thanks for you advice!

Matt i was stunned when i read your experiences with IBM Customer Service. Thats one of the main reasons why I want an IBM and am willing to drop a lot of $$$ when i could get the same hardware for almost Half the price. Concerning the glare displays, I absolutely agree. Glare is nice for Movies or Games, but i want to work on it so i prefer a non glare display. For example the sony displays look really great if you look at Vids or Pics, but after working in Excel for 8 hours you have a new tan. They are WAY too bright!

Thanks for your tips guys! They are very much appreciated!

Since you are going to be using your notebook often in moving vehicles, the X-Brite-type screens will probably not work out well. I don't think that the T60's screen has enough brightness or contrast to work well in that kind of environment either. I tried using my T60 outside, and sometimes it was okay and sometimes it almost totally washed out.

If you can really get a computer that you are happy with for close to half the price of the T60, and the only differentiating factor is build quality and support, then I recommend getting that other computer.
Even if it totally falls apart in one year, you will still have the other half of your money to buy another cheap one then.

That said, I think it is quite difficult to find a laptop with a 14" screen, a T2500, and discrete graphics for less than $800, whereas a T60 like that can be purchased for less $1,600 quite readily. When I priced the Dell D-series against the T60, the T60 was only about $200 more expensive.

briansmith wrote: whereas a T60 like that can be purchased for less $1,600 ...

More like 2.000 € aka $ 2540. i dont know how cheap IBMs are in the US but they are very high priced in Austria/Europe

QQs wrote:Matt i was stunned when i read your experiences with IBM Customer Service. Thats one of the main reasons why I want an IBM and am willing to drop a lot of $$$ when i could get the same hardware for almost Half the price.

notice that i only talked to 3 reps, but one of them literally insulted me lol he started making fun at me for being a student and not being able to afford a tinkpad lol. what a guy. i actually did a poll about lenovo/IBM customer service, you should search for it and check it out yourself. most people are either quite satisfied or very dissatisfied (more happy customers thou). and the one rep that i talked to and that was very polite and professional actually apologized for the others mistakes and hooked me up with express shipping at no cost. Really what seems to me from what i read around here is that there is a lot of great reps and few rouge reps. and if you want to buy a cheap notebook go for it but you will have to sacrifice built quality. personally i am perfectionists but there are some people who don't care and buy the cheapest notebook for $400, throw it away and buy another one a year later. Notice that every year they get good enough notebook to keep up with basic needs and that a year from now their cheap notebook will be probably faster than T60 2400 right now. But if you are like me and built quality is very important and you get attached to things then thinkpad is the way to go (from what i've read since i had my T60 for only 1 month now).

mattbiernat wrote: i actually did a poll about lenovo/IBM customer service, you should search for it and check it out yourself. most people are either quite satisfied or very dissatisfied (more happy customers thou).

Almost every customer service poll is like that. Nobody seems to think of their customer service experience as "so so"--people tend to think that "so so" basically means bad, based on the studies I have seen. Your poll had way too few responses to be statistically significant, but it is not surprising that more voters on your poll claim to be satisfied, because there are lot of people in this forum that sell/support ThinkPads and benefit (profit) from having Lenovo's customer support look good. It is hard to see in an anonymous poll, but it is easy to see when you look at, e.g. Christopher Wolf's responses of any ThinkPad criticism.

...the one rep that i talked to and that was very polite and professional actually apologized for the others mistakes and hooked me up with express shipping at no cost....

Lenovo seems to ship all ThinkPads express, whether you paid for it or not. It kind of made me feel like a sucker for paying $50 for it after I learned that everybody was getting it for free.

Some of the following might help: I bought a modest T60, 14.1", model 1953-D6U. I needed something overnight, so I bought a standard configuration machine from CDW rather than Lenovo. I also needed a workorse rather than a game machine. From a long experience with ThinkPads, I am happy with XGA resolution -- I can use my bigger external LCD monitor when I (rarely) need higher resolution. Higher resolution does not do much for me because I literally spend entire days working on this machine and below a certain character size the eyestrain is just too much. The screen is a bit old-fashioned in that the optimal viewing angle is very narrow. On the other hand, I use it all the time with my back against a window, and it remains very usable regardless of how much light there is outside, and even when the sun hits directly. With a shiny glossy screens I would not even be able to work 5 minutes in those conditions! This machine barely gets warm on the bottom, unlike my T42 that got quite toasty. The fan does run most of the time, as on the T42, and this is mildly annoying, but it is mercifully quiet--considerably quieter than most PC or laser printer fans. The hard disk shock protection is priceless.
Above all, the keyboard is very comfortable - I need that since I am touch typing almost all day. I also need high portability. The form factor is very convenient. The weight (5.1lbs with 6-cell battery and the 65W power supply) and the 12x10 inch dimensions are a good compromise. I looked at the X60 but once you add an optical drive the travel weight saving is not great, and you don't have the convenience of the built-in bay. Also, my understanding is that the X60 does get uncomfortably hot.
The frame is not as rigid as I would like, but that has always been an issue with all ThinkPads after the wonderful 600 series. I lost a T21 to flexing. When I need to lift my T60 with one hand, I have trained myself to grab it in the middle of the front rather than on a corner, with my thumb next to the touch pad and my fingers underneath the touch pad to avoid flexing the frame. That feels quite solid. The keyboard actually feels more rigid than the keyboard on my T42, which flexed a little on one side.
On the negative side, there is the now traditional ThinkPad lack of clearance between the screen and the keyboard. The back of the screen is very strong, but flexes enough that the screen can touch the top of the trackpoint. I can tell because finger oil from the trackpoint is neatly printed on the screen. Wipes off easily, easily remedied by the equally traditional trick putting a sheet of clean paper over the keyboard before closing the machine. It would be nice to have a firewire port or a SD slot (a bootable SD slot, or a recessed USB slot, would be hog heaven for me). The system software (security, etc.) is a bit overwhelming; the documentation is very well written but largely incomprehensible. Some of the preinstalled third party software is annoying. As others pointed out, if you try a bare metal XP installation trouble may ensue, but that is true for all major brands of laptops.

briansmith wrote:Your poll had way too few responses to be statistically significant.

. i know but it was still better than my sole opinion based on 3 calls to lenovo.

Note the sony's do not have a very good warranty...read the FINE PRINT on it....

I had one Sony customer who showed me how sony just decided that even though he had paid for an onsite 3 yr warranty, after about 10 months they decided they didn't do onsite anymore. Sorry. Tough. No refund. Mail it in. Because the terms of the warranty said they could change it at any time...which is like, NO warranty in my mind.

I bought a T60/X1400 for similar purposes to yours. Just logged off of WoW I'm happy with the machine. It's solid, reliable, simple. The X1400 is fine for games like WoW (30fps at max performance). The hardware is great. The 14" screen is not the best, but it's OK for me. Works fine if you're right in front of it, but it gets dark pretty fast as you move out of straight-on view.

BTW, if you're trying to save money you may find OpenOffice works well as a free MS Office replacement.

Guys!

I just returned from my local Thinkpad Center and I´m officialy in love with that notebook.

The Display is nowhere near of being "too dark" for my taste. I had the chance to check it with a window with direct sunlight in my back, works out fine for me.

Product quality looked perfect for me, the counseling (about 1.5 hours ) was perfect and they even offered me some discount

I´ll get the T60, no question

Peter

I'm using my T60 now what a great business machine go ahed
You wont be disappointed.

nxman wrote:I'm using my T60 now what a great business machine go ahed
You wont be disappointed.

great student machine as well.

QQs wrote:I´ll get the T60, no question

As a discerning ThinkPad user, I can assure you that you will not be disapointed. Having relied on ThinkPads as my mission critical computer over the last decade, I can attest to the quality and reliability of their T models, as I have had many.

The new 60 series are a nice improvement and I find the IBM/Lenovo transition to be a positive one. The depth and breadth of the support offered and the track record is legendary. No other laptop line has the history of support that is available for the ThinkPad lineup.

Welcome to the forum and enjoy your new ThinkPad...