A Little Whining about Lenovo

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KawaiDon · #1 Post by **KawaiDon** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:20 pm

Well, everyone, I have had my T-60P for 5 months now, and I feel the need to whine here a little, and see if others have similar impressions. If not, I'll have some cheese with my whine and shut up . .

After having a few different brands of laptops in the past, I have owned 2 thinkpads before this, a T-20 and a T-40 (guess I like the even numbers or something). The T-20 sold me on IBM, and the T-40 confirmed my previous feelings. The T-60 is changing my mind the other way.

The previous laptops always had issues - from failed display hinges to cracked case parts to poor quality switches and jacks to cheesy keyboards and displays. Although all got me through 2 - 3 years of use, all were replaced because they were failing in one way or another.

My 2 previous thinkpads were replaced due to the need for more performance and hard disk space primarily, plus new features (such as 3G internet access in the T-60). Both computers were still very functional when replaced, and had no failures and no need to repairs during their lives.

In addition to my own computers I have assisted others in buying 4 Thinkpads over the years. All have had similar experiences to mine, and all had many trouble free years from the computers.

I have never had so many things cause second thoughts as with this T-60P. I travel extensively and use it for presentations (amongst other things, of course). I am extremely careful with my computer generally, and my old Thinkpads have never had any issues at all. This one, though, has come up with a few issues that point to poor design and/or manufacturing:

- Trackpad button popped loose during normal use, became more and more loose with time. The entire palm rest was replaced by IBM. The new button now squeaks, and the design looks the same as the original - meaning it will likely become loose again.
- Ethernet port looses connection when the cable pulls a little in one direction.
- Battery fits loosely, and sometimes looses connection, causing the computer to think it is not charged. Removing it and replacing it fixes this.
- Case parts do not fit solidly together - when I pick up the computer it creaks and clicks all over.

I will have to see if these issues continue to be a problem over the life of the computer. I would like to get 3 years out of it as I did with my previous Thinkpads, but I am having doubts if that will be the case.

I know, I should contact Lenovo and address the ethernet and battery issues, but they always want me to send the computer in, and I rely on it.

When I called support about the palm rest I was glad to get an American service person on the phone, and he agreed to send the new part to me as soon as they came back in stock. He was sounding exceptionally harried, though. Maybe it was just a bad day . . .

I have read here that, well, the same staff is still designing the computers - but be that as it may, there are clearly differences between the T-60 and my previous Thinkpads, for whatever reason. Perhaps it is motivation on the design engineers parts, management style from China, or just the changing company culture,

Well, the performance is great, the display is great, the keyboard is great, so it is by no means a low grade computer. But I am becoming more and more convinced that the old Thinkpad quality standards are gone, and we are going to have to either accept a lower standard on future Thinkpads, or we will have to hope that one of other computer makers step up and make a quality leader to replace them.

I'm interested in what others think.

pianowizard · #2 Post by **pianowizard** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:44 pm

I was wondering whether Thinkpads had been going downhill in another thread, and was assured that that's not the case:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=30734

SkiBunny · #3 Post by **SkiBunny** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:29 pm

My experience is the opposite... The quality on my X60 exceeds the quality on my T41 and T43. (the T21 and T20 were solid as a rock tho, but the X60 is better so far).

I had 2 hard drive crashes on my T41, and the LCD on my T43 blew. Also the T43 creaked.

I agree it sucks to have to send in your laptop for servicing.

If you travel a lot, you might consider an X-series. I almost bought a T60, but I do love the weight & size of the X (at 71 cubic inches, it's half the size of the T and 2.5 pounds lighter). Plus I get over 7 hours of real use on one battery. And the quality, at least of my model (17097-97U) is excellent.

foodle · #4 Post by **foodle** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:00 am

So my T60p doesn't feel as hewn-from-a-single-stone as my 760XD did, but the T60p is also a lot lighter/smaller. It has the occasional creak, but nothing like any of the Dell machines I've had. My T41p was fairly solid, except for when it died from motherboard flex. So I'd have to say that the T60 series with the internal Magnesium frame is a decided improvement.

My X60s does have that hewn-from-a-single-stone. No creaks or squeaks at all.

freakwave · #5 Post by **freakwave** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:20 am

Hi KawaiDon,

I had also the T40p before and can just say that this T60p for me is so much more solidly build than the T40p. But since you have problems and you are dependent on your computer, why do you not purchase the onsite support for 3 years?
I also never want to give my computer out of my hand. I had 2 requests with my T40p and the technician fixed the problems the next day, just awesome. It is so much better swhen you can to talk to the guy that is at your home and in my cases these techincians have been always very helpful. For my that is one of the best investments one can make.

Regards,

Wolfgang

SkiBunny · #6 Post by **SkiBunny** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:44 pm

freakwave wrote:I also never want to give my computer out of my hand. I had 2 requests with my T40p and the technician fixed the problems the next day, just awesome. It is so much better swhen you can to talk to the guy that is at your home and in my cases these techincians have been always very helpful. For my that is one of the best investments one can make.

I want that too, but the vast majority of service requests require depot service. So with onsite support, in most cases the tech just sends it in. They're forbidden from doing much other than replace a limited number of parts, most of which many of you could replace too by following the service manual.

That's why onsite support is so inexpensive.

When the LCD on my T43 blew, IBM sent me a new replacement machine, minus the CD RAM battery and optical. I moved those from the old shell to the new machine, and returned the old one.

nxman · #7 Post by **nxman** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:15 am

I used a T42 before and now T60 and Quality of built is the same.

fbrdphreak · #8 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:09 pm

Is your T60p a 15" or 14"? I've always noticed a little more creaking and flexing in the 15" personally.

KawaiDon · #9 Post by **KawaiDon** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:47 pm

fbrdphreak wrote:Is your T60p a 15" or 14"? I've always noticed a little more creaking and flexing in the 15" personally.

It's a 15" display (my specs are in my signature).

It's not only the creaking - the cover panels on either side of the keyboard are loose fitting, the display bezel does not seem all that tight on the display, etc.

Are most people's 9-cel batteries loose fitting like mine? By the way, I cleaned the contacts carefully and, although still loose fitting, the incorrect battery status has stopped happening.

nxman · #10 Post by **nxman** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:04 am

9 cell battery is loose on my T60 and i remeber before when i used T42 for a while battery was loose too and so was on my friends T43!
It normal.

QQs · #11 Post by **QQs** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:14 am

I´ve got my first T60 a few weeks ago and as far as built quality is concerned im pretty happy with what I´ve got.

There are 2 things i don´t like though:

My "Fn" key makes some weird noise when i press it. It´s sounds like there was a piece of paper or something between the "Fn" key and case.

The right part of the case which is directly above the ultrabay drive is pretty loose and moves about 1mm when I push on it. Is that normal?

In addition, the ThinkLight LED could definately use a bit more power, its usable as it is now but a brighter LED would be a good idea.

After I partitioned my HDD I faced issues with the RnR hidden partition when i tried to reset my T60 to factory settings. I got an error saying "Missing operating System". I called Lenovo support to send me the Recovery Discs. The agreed to do so but told me that it will take 9 business days to ship them to my adress (which is around 50km away from the lenovo service center). I´m a bit dissapointed with the 9 days for shipping but at least I don´t have to pay for the CDs (Support is in Austria)

I checked many notebooks before I bought the Thinkpad and I can say that even with the problems I mentioned above, the T60 is far better than every other book I tested when it comes to build quality.

Regards

Peter

#12 Post by **gator** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:18 pm

I totally agree with KawaiDon. I am a PhD student at UF, and I used my advisor's T41 for a short while. I loved the machine so much that I decided to get a thinkpad for myself. The T41 is an amazing feat of engineering - compared to it, my T60 feels quite cheap in build.

I expected the T60 to be as good as the T41, and I must say that I am disappointed. It creaks here and there (esp over the secrity chip on right edge of the laptop), the LCD does not "completely" close, the hinges don't feel as solid. I accept the T60 is way better than any other lappy out there, but the IBM touch is lost. Wish I had a T43 sometime back!

dfumento · #13 Post by **dfumento** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:34 pm

My Thnkpad X60s is superbly built as have been all the other Thinkpads that I have owned. I use these units a lot (the Windows sticker has fallen off) and they are wonderful. Sorry you're having troubles.

#14 Post by **Kyocera** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:00 pm

gator, do have the 14 or 15" model.

gearguy · #15 Post by **gearguy** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:40 pm

Calling the T60 better than any Laptop out there is a bit of an over statement I'd say...

There are plenty of non IBM laptops that are at least twice as durable as a T60... (Panasonic Toughbooks anyone?

)

nxman · #16 Post by **nxman** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:30 pm

gearguy wrote:Calling the T60 better than any Laptop out there is a bit of an over statement I'd say...

There are plenty of non IBM laptops that are at least twice as durable as a T60... (Panasonic Toughbooks anyone? )

Panasonic Toughbook is not a normal notebook so its not fare
To compare it with Thinkpads however the T60 exceeds all other Notebooks dell apple hp acer etc.
In terms of durability & quality of built.

My T60 1951-CTO is rock solid and made of concrete!

#17 Post by **gator** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:00 am

kyocera,

I have the T60 15" model (2613 EKU).

christopher_wolf · #18 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:47 am

The ToughBook, while good, still can't last forever; my friend has one that has, to its credit, taken a beating that any Thinkpad could. Although it is now in trouble because of various internal issues slowly incubating and getting worse. It doesn't lend itself to ease of maintenance as well as the Thinkpads do. In most cases, it is simply better to have a supply of parts on hand for a number of laptops so that, when they do need them, you can quickly supply them and get things moving. Not just have something that was extensively engineered to be a tank, but isn't as easy to repair and doesn't have an extensive user knowledge base like the Thinkpads.

There are good laptops here and there, but the key is that one has to build an "image" to get noticed in what has turned out to be a really competitive market where you have to fight tooth and nail against the latest media laptop clones being spewed out by the likes of Dell and HP's consumer line. In combination with directed marketing, that has elevated the Thinkpads to an image level in most people's minds that is directly linked to the word "Professional" all while having just about *all* of their models viewed as bein extremely robust and efficient and not just one single "ToughBook" from Panasonic. Bit of a tangent there, but that is why there is a significant difference between the two.

Unil_Lausanne · #19 Post by **Unil_Lausanne** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:54 am

The delivery duration of my T60 is tooooooo long... More than a half and two months... sighed....

perry_78 · #20 Post by **perry_78** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:57 pm

Only thing that bugs me with mine is the 9 cell battery, which screws any ergonomics infinitely over

fbrdphreak · #21 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:07 pm

perry_78 wrote:Only thing that bugs me with mine is the 9 cell battery, which screws any ergonomics infinitely over

Be glad you didn't get a Dell D420/620/820. Their extended batteries stick out the front

christopher_wolf · #22 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:05 pm

Wait, how does the 9-cell extending from the back affect ergonomics? Besides carrying it, which is actually slightly improved given that you can used it for more leverage.

#23 Post by **Kyocera** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:42 pm

I had a nine cell to start with, it really depends on what you use the laptop for. Mines always in and out of the bag in customers offices, carrying it around connecting it to their network here and there, the nine cell added to much overall bulk. If it sits on a desk or in your lap it really is not a big deal.

perry_78 · #24 Post by **perry_78** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:12 pm

I don't know about you, but I feel uncomfortable lifting the laptop by the battery, or holding it by the battery.

Not to mention, feels rather clumsy. I'd like the design of the six cell where nothing sticks out more. Guess that was a bad decision on my part.

christopher_wolf · #25 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:26 pm

I tend to be rather mobile with it, so I just cradle it and take it along. To me, the trade off of 3 extra cells for an extension out the back is worth it because I never know when I need to run a real-time FEA/CFD or SPT job, given that they suck up power for the CPU set on adaptive and then getting pegged at 2.0GHz, at a conference or meeting and I still have to manage to have the battery life afterwards to take notes/type up an abstract or synopsis before I even get a chance to see a wall outlet.

#26 Post by **gator** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:19 am

I got my palmrest replaced, and I must retract my earlier complaints about the creaks in T6 - they are non existent now. The machine is indeed solid. My lid also fits in really well with the base after the repair and I am **very** pleased with the machine.

rleo25 · #27 Post by **rleo25** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:05 am

Nice to hear that gator. I´ve just received my new T60 and if feels absolutely solid and compact, no flex on the keyboard, a little on the palm rest, the minimum possible if you consider it is a removable plastic piece mounted over the metalic roll cage. No creeks or weird sounds, no loose parts, except a 2mm light between lid and base, rattles a little, that´s normal if you consider it physicaly couldn´t fit perfectly, so to summarize a sturdy, well designed and manufactured machine.

As to the aesthetics I agree fully with Christopher_wolf, don´t you think this is a media and marketing creation on our minds? to me beauty equals function, form follows it, and is a more cultural than objective issue...

GXCross · #28 Post by **GXCross** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:00 pm

fbrdphreak wrote:Be glad you didn't get a Dell D420/620/820. Their extended batteries stick out the front

The extended batteries on the D820 are completely internal, though on the D620 they do indeed stick out in front. I actually kinda like the way Dell designed the extended batteries on the D620 - it's covered in a soft rubbery material and looks & works like a wrist pad. Personally I think it works better than the way the 9-cells stick out the back of the T-series.

wswartzendruber · #29 Post by **wswartzendruber** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:17 pm

I got my T60 about a month ago and it's one solid son of a [censored]. In fact, the keyboard's better installed on this thing than on my old T22. I'm still certain as to the ThinkPad's durability. The only thing I don't like is weekness near the volume keys. The rest of the system is SOLID. You got a defective machine.

pianowizard · #30 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:34 pm

Based on what you guys have said, it seems that the quality of Thinkpads is highly variable. Some units are sturdy like tanks, others flex and squeak. Does anyone know what's causing such variability?

A Little Whining about Lenovo

A Little Whining about Lenovo

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