To err is human, but to really screw up takes a computer.

[dfumento]

To err is human, but to really screw up takes a computer.

Just so. And there is this joke. There are two scientists competing to be first to publish a paper. How does one slow the other one down? He buys him a computer.

The last thing you want in your life is your computer acting up on you. And it will, it is just a matter of when. Just as you must have health insurance, you must have “sanity insurance” regarding computers. I’m an MD with a undergraduate degree in electrical engineering and computer science. I worked in a computer chip design group. I have programmed a lot of software. An important rule in computing is to go with standards and systems with good support. Apples laptops are well built with good support, but they are not the standard. IBM/Lenovo is the standard, well built with good support. When I need support, I call 800-IBM-SERV and I talk with someone in Atlanta GA, not Bangalore, India and usually immediately. Things break, but when they do, I have the part by 10 AM the next day.

My brother bought a Toshiba laptop without asking me, confident in his selection. Well, he had trouble with his wireless at one airport and then at the next airport and thought to call me. I guessed that there might be a hardware switch for the wireless and that fixed the problem. But in the interim he went to an Internet kiosk in the airport and dropped his credit card in a crack and lost it. And so it goes….

Computers will give you trouble and headaches, but you can minimize it.

The sales people talk about TCO – total cost of ownership or this or that gadget or how well engineered the product is. I tell them, most people don’t care or understand that. Just tell them that it “minimizes hassle.” They know a computer will cause them headaches. Just tell them buying yours causes much fewer of them. That they care about.

It turns out that when the Intel wanted a Linux operating system on a laptop because most chip design software runs on Linux and not Windows, they turned to IBM/Lenovo. The guys that build the chips in the IBM/Lenovo buy that unit. Cisco, the people who build the switches that run the Internet, uses these Linux notebooks as well.

The cost? If you look at it on a daily basis for the life of the laptop, the cost difference is less than a dollar a day, sometimes much less. That's 1/2 a cheapest Starbuck's coffee. Isn't that "insurance" money worth having the assurance that when things go wrong, you will "minimize hassle?"

Why do I tell people to buy IBM/Lenovo? IBM/Lenovo don’t pay me a cent. Because the first job of a doctor is educating the public about public health measures to prevent them from having problems. Buying an IBM/Lenovo laptop is simply a public health measure. I want to alleviate pain and suffering whenever possible. I do this because I care about people.

[Kyocera]

I want to alleviate pain and suffering whenever possible. I do this because I care about people.

Well said, and very true. This forum is somewhat the "tylenol" of of thinkpad pain relief.

[gator]

Here at UF, the entire student community buys Dell for thier laptop needs. When I decided that I will be getting a Thinkpad paying almost thrice of what people normally pay for a machine of identical config, people thought I am insane, or have money to burn. Or both.

Not a single student I knew encouraged me - the most common respsonse was 'Dude, IBM sucks at pricing. We accept thinkpads are solid laptops -but why do you think Dell is #1 in sales? Its because they are very competitive in their pricing. Don't think that just because you pay low means you get a bad product - if Dell was so bad so many people won't be getting them. Wake up and dont waste your money.'

My primary work desktop at school is a Dell desktop. It did not cost much, and its an well configured machine. I won't say its crappy or bad, it actually does the job quite well. I have had trouble with it, but because of the UF contract, dell has been exceptionally good in service. I have also used my friend's inspiron e1405 extensively. Infact I used it exclusively for a month when he was away for a trip back home. It was a core duo laptop and it was fast and snappy. Bulkiness was the only major complaint I had with it, apart from the incredibly (insanely) bright glossy screen. It was good for entertainment and for work. Dell definitely has improved the quality of the materials used and the keyboard from the 600M inspiron days. So I completely understood the sentiments of the student community when I said I am going to buy a T60. I could literally get atleast 2 top-notch inspirons for the cost!

I have also used my advisor's T41 (I call it "the tank") when my desktop was out of commission for a week. While I had no complaints about the dell, this T41 was the first laptop I ever fell in love with. It did not have a top notch config, and though having a pentium M with 512 MB of RAM, it was as atleast as fast as the e1405. It was also *impossibly* thin and light, in a way that very few laptops are. While I had no complaints about dell, the T41 was a pleasure to work on. After using it for a week or so, I realized that I liked working on even better than my desktop.

It was then I decided that if I get a laptop, it was going to be a thinkpad, whatever the cost. No matter how much dell gets things correct (look and feel, quality, performance, price), I don't think they can ever match up to the thinkpad in terms of quality, build, performance and aesthetics. They can be #1 in terms of sales, but nothing, nothing will ever come close to thinkpads when it comes to reliability and build.

As one other user said in another post, my T60 is one solid son of a [censored]. I have invested almost all the savings I had made till date in grad school to get this T60, and I am sure it will come till I complete my PhD (and long therafter). I initially was a bit unsatisfied when I saw some flex in my machine, but after I had the IBM technician replace it, my machine feels like a super tank, even better than the T41. It was an expensive purchase, but it is a long lasting one. Even staunch dell supporters who saw the machine after I got it simply could not resist saying 'Well, it IS a good machine, expensive or not'.

It is difficult to describe why I like my thinkpad so much. I extensivley looked in person at almost all brands before my purchase - Toshiba, HP, Dell and Sony. I used them for a while to see how they are and whether I like them. But there was none that had the same feel as a Thinkpad. None.

I will always recommend a Thinkpad if anyone I know asks me for a suggestion for getting a laptop. Not because I am a huge thinkpad fan, but because they are the best there is.

[EagleDevil]

Gator,

I agree with most of your post, except for the pricing difference. The premium for my T60 over an HP or a Dell consumer notebook was only $300-$400. That made it a no-brainer.

I assume you know that you can get Lenovo academic pricing even if your school doesn't have a special deal with Dell, right?

Chris

[dfumento]

It is a myth that T and X series Thinkpads need be expensive. First, at a school, IBM offers discounts, typically 25% at least on some models. Dell and Apple are pushed by Columbia University and the university has refused to put the IBM discounts on the "computer purchasing" pages, but students can still get 25% discounts if they know to call.

This is the cost of the entry level T60 for costcentral.com :

Lenovo ThinkPad T60 1951
Core Duo T2300 / 1.66 GHz - Centrino Duo - RAM : 512 MB - HD : 40 GB - DVD - Gigabit Ethernet - 802.11a/b/g - TPM - Win XP Pro - 14.1" TFT 1024 x 768 ( XGA )

$1256.71 tax free. With Dell, you have to pay taxes.


For the entry level SXGA+ on costcentral.com

Lenovo ThinkPad T60 2007
Core Duo T2400 / 1.83 GHz - Centrino Duo - RAM : 512 MB - HD : 60 GB - CD-RW / DVD - Gigabit Ethernet - Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g - TPM - fingerprint reader - Win XP Pro - 14.1" TFT 1400 x 1050 ( SXGA+ )

$1476.75 tax free.

I challenge you to look at similarly configured Dell Latitudes and you'll find them to be very close in price when everything is considered.

If they are considering Inspirions instead of Latitudes, then you must compare this with the R line (or perhaps the Z).

[pianowizard]

I agree with most of your post, except for the pricing difference. The premium for my T60 over an HP or a Dell consumer notebook was only $300-$400. That made it a no-brainer.

With appropriate coupons, the cheapest Dell Inspiron laptops can be had for around $450. That's about a quarter of the price of a T60.

[dfumento]

With appropriate coupons, the cheapest Dell Inspiron laptops can be had for around $450. That's about a quarter of the price of a T60.

But in that case you should compare Inspirion with a 'R' or 'Z' laptop.

Besides, for college, chicks dig a guy with a T60. Not only do they look cool, they make you stand out from the crowd over those guys with their ugly Dells as someone special.

[EagleDevil]

With appropriate coupons, the cheapest Dell Inspiron laptops can be had for around $450. That's about a quarter of the price of a T60.

First of all, I've played around on the Dell site and have never seen anything like that. You must be talking about Celeron-based machines or something. I was talking about a comparison of similar-spec'ed Core Duo machines.

As I'm sure you would agree, there is no comparison possible between the "cheapest Dell" and a T60.

Chris

[pianowizard]

chicks dig a guy with a T60.

I will buy one as soon as I have the money!

[pianowizard]

First of all, I've played around on the Dell site and have never seen anything like that. You must be talking about Celeron-based machines or something.

Yes, I was talking about their entry-level laptops, usually Celeron-based.

[christopher_wolf]

Actually, it is natural for systems to err, but for most of the users to screw up on grand levels. That is one of the functional premises of IT pretty much everywhere.

There really is no good way to compare a T60 and one of the "cheaper" Dell laptops as, not only are they made for different things, but the quality and robustness on the T60 is simply far out of the league of such Dells. Granted, you could compare to a top-of-the-line Dell laptop, but then the differences in cost would get very narrow. At that point, you will be dropping a large amount of money on either of the systems; so the other metric that comes into serious play will be the total cost overhead incurred throughout the lifetime of the machine. Given that much of the cost of a Thinkpad is part of the Warranty and Support category, and also that Thinkpads have a legendary reputation for being professional business machines that last for a long time, it would eventually turn out to save money by going with the T60. Buying an expensive system once should be enough, not again and again and again when it either sopts becuase of a problem with it or was simply not robust enough enough to meet future demands.

[tomh009]

I agree with most of your post, except for the pricing difference. The premium for my T60 over an HP or a Dell consumer notebook was only $300-$400. That made it a no-brainer.

With appropriate coupons, the cheapest Dell Inspiron laptops can be had for around $450. That's about a quarter of the price of a T60.

$689 for a ThinkPad R60e, with no coupons needed. That's less than $250 premium over your Inspiron price above, and only $190 more than the "instant rebate" price for the Inspiron B130 on dell.com.

The T series should be compared with Latitude, Dell's business notebook line, not Inspiron.

[pianowizard]

The T series should be compared with Latitude, Dell's business notebook line, not Inspiron.

All right all right! My comparison wasn't fair, and I knew that. I was really just responding to Gator's earlier comment:

Here at UF, the entire student community buys Dell for thier laptop needs. When I decided that I will be getting a Thinkpad paying almost thrice of what people normally pay for a machine of identical config, people thought I am insane, or have money to burn. Or both.

I should have elaborated a bit more. What I was trying to point out was, when people (like Gator's schoolmates) think that Thinkpads are overpriced, they are comparing them with the cheapest Dell laptops available, which are sometimes as low as $450. I hope I have made myself clear this time!

[Kyocera]

I do a lot of networking which usually involves loading software on lots of pc's all day in businesses. The majority of Laptops on desks are dell's unless it is a large company with a full IT staff then I usually find thinkpads, but from my experience there are more dells.
I never pay much attention to the model because personally I would not pay any amount for one, have never owned one and every time someone hands me one I'm afraid it's going to fall apart. I always breath a sigh of relief when the thing does not freeze up while I'm on it. .

My point is with the dell you get what you pay for, nothing more nothing less and with the thinkpad you know what you are getting when you pay for it.

[3nigma]

It is a myth that T and X series Thinkpads need be expensive. First, at a school, IBM offers discounts, typically 25% at least on some models. Dell and Apple are pushed by Columbia University and the university has refused to put the IBM discounts on the "computer purchasing" pages, but students can still get 25% discounts if they know to call.

I just ordered my T60p, and I knew they did educational discounts, but I completely forgot to ask!

How much is the discount, or how much should I expect for this exact model? I go to school at a local commuity college, but it's been 1 or 2 semesters since I was full time. I'm going back full time in the Spring, but will this matter?

Will they apply an educational discount retro-active on my order?

Thanks
-3nigma

[Ruger]

There's no doubt that you can buy a really cheap Dell. But when you do a price comparison, you have to match all specs, warranty and also the form factor and mechanical. If you're comparing Thinkpads and Dell, you must look at the Latitudes...even for the R & Z. The R is most like the D520, The T should be compared to the D620 & the Z with the D820. The form factor (materials & engineering) of an Inspiron are just not comparable to the Thinkpad.

And when you compare the Latitudes to a Thinkpad with the same specs, you'll find that a Thinkpad is typically only 10-15% more than a Latitude. And as dfumento points out, if you ever have a problem with you thinkpad, you dealing with the best service & support in the business.

[tomh009]

If your comparing Thinkpads and Dell, you must look at the Latitudes...even for the R & Z. The R is most like the D520, The T should be compared to the D620 & the Z with the D820. The form factor (materials & engineering) of an Inspiron are just not comparable to the Thinkpad.

For that matter, Latitudes don't have the level of design & build quality that ThinkPads have. We have lots of Dells at our office (mostly C4x0, D4x0 and D6x0) and they are still cheaply built. Take a look at any year-old Latitude, for example, and casually check the play on the display -- often it's half an inch to an inch. The hinges are just of way too weak a design for anything more than once-a-week use ...

[christopher_wolf]

Take a look at any year-old Latitude, for example, and casually check the play on the display -- often it's half an inch to an inch. The hinges are just of way too weak a design for anything more than once-a-week use ...

I hate that, I really do.

Over time, I have seen it get worse and worse. Until finally it is either unusable, or something goes wrong with the screen of the Dell; at least one M60 and two D600s came to me like that as *new*. Had that happen on a few systems here that it really shouldn't have happened to given the amount we paid for them. One memorable incident was where the screen on one of them split down the sides and lost all the hinge resistance.

[gator]

I completely agree with Christoper_wolf ... its surrising to see people buy Dell knowing all its pitfalls, esp with keyboards and the display hinges. I know a bazillion people using their dells with an external USB keyoard because they simply hate the ones that came on the laptop - but they don't care because these keyboards are not expensive. I remember a particularly hot arguement with my friend who said that even with the new keyboard, dells cost way less than thinkpads. Finally eerything boils down to what you put of your pocket - lesser the greenbacks that go out, more happy the people, though they know that they are not getting a rock solid product. Why do you think Wallmart survives?

[pianowizard]

Finally eerything boils down to what you put of your pocket - lesser the greenbacks that go out, more happy the people, though they know that they are not getting a rock solid product. Why do you think Wallmart survives?

Americans like to own lots and lots of things, and the best way to achieve that is to buy the cheapest products available.

[gator]

Americans like to own lots and lots of things, and the best way to achieve that is to buy the cheapest products available.

And keep buying the same product every once in a while?

[Thinkpad_T43_Fan]

Yes the service and warranty is awesome.

But I like the Thinkpads the same reason most people love the iPods - they are simply the sleekest and most ergonomic in their class.

The Thinkpads are heads and shoulders above all other (Wintel) laptops, bar none.

Even the sleek Sony Vaio I was issued last year does not compare.

I love holding my T43. It feels like how a laptop is supposed to feel - lean, mean, and sleek. Not so with the chunky wide screen mass produced laptops on the marketplace today.

[pianowizard]

And keep buying the same product every once in a while?

Actually that's very true! I have bought the X20 three times, the 240 three times (four times if I include the 240X), the 600E twice (thrice if I include the 600), and the T23 twice.

[pianowizard]

I love holding my T43. It feels like how a laptop is supposed to feel - lean, mean, and sleek. Not so with the chunky wide screen mass produced laptops on the marketplace today.

I own a T43 but think that at 5.2 lbs it's still too heavy. As mentioned in another thread, I am now increasingly interested in the 3.4-pound Panasonic Toughbook Y4, which has a 14.1" SXGA+ screen and an internal optical drive. I will continue to use the T43 as a desktop replacement (just purchased a 2x1GB dual channel kit for it), but the next laptop that I will buy will be a the Y4, not a T series.

[Thinkpad_T43_Fan]

I love holding my T43. It feels like how a laptop is supposed to feel - lean, mean, and sleek. Not so with the chunky wide screen mass produced laptops on the marketplace today.

I own a T43 but think that at 5.2 lbs it's still too heavy. As mentioned in another thread, I am now increasingly interested in the 3.4-pound Panasonic Toughbook Y4, which has a 14.1" SXGA+ screen and an internal optical drive. I will continue to use the T43 as a desktop replacement (just purchased a 2x1GB dual channel kit for it), but the next laptop that I will buy will be a the Y4, not a T series.

If you go to any Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, CostCo, and look at the current available consumer laptops, you will see what I mean. 99% of the consumer laptops are hefty, large pieces of crap, compared the lean, thin feel of the T43.

Sure there are lighter weight laptops, but for me the T43 is the perfect combination of functionality and size.

I can really appreciate a lighter laptop like the X60, but I don't like to give up functionality nor keyboard size. My Sony Vaio laptop was tiny compared to the T43, but the screen size was hard to use, and the keyboard was not as intuitive.

[tomh009]

Take a look at any year-old Latitude, for example, and casually check the play on the display -- often it's half an inch to an inch. The hinges are just of way too weak a design for anything more than once-a-week use ...

I hate that, I really do.

Over time, I have seen it get worse and worse. Until finally it is either unusable, or something goes wrong with the screen of the Dell; at least one M60 and two D600s came to me like that as *new*. Had that happen on a few systems here that it really shouldn't have happened to given the amount we paid for them. One memorable incident was where the screen on one of them split down the sides and lost all the hinge resistance.

On my C400 (now happily a distant memory) I had the the screen replaced three (!) times under warranty for the hinge problem. A colleague wasn't so keen on dealing with Dell support and didn't get the screen replaced, and his hinges completely fell apart -- you could just lift the display out, it was only attached by a ribbon cable!

And, yes, the latest models appear to have the exact same problem still ...

[dfumento]

I can really appreciate a lighter laptop like the X60, but I don't like to give up functionality nor keyboard size. My Sony Vaio laptop was tiny compared to the T43, but the screen size was hard to use, and the keyboard was not as intuitive.

Thinkpad X60s keyboard feels the same as a 'T' series keyboard. Not smaller as far as I can tell. I used to be a T42 owner switched to X60s. Not certain as to what functionality you'd be losing, except graphics processing power and for me the X60s is enough graphics processing.

[pianowizard]

I can really appreciate a lighter laptop like the X60, but I don't like to give up functionality nor keyboard size. My Sony Vaio laptop was tiny compared to the T43, but the screen size was hard to use, and the keyboard was not as intuitive.

The Panasonic Y4 that I mentioned has the same screen size and resolution as the high-end T43 models, and the keyboard is also the same size. Nothing to compromise.