thoughts on a "better built T60p"

[trevize]

I've only had my new T60p for a few weeks. I've already had to recover the O/S from the hidden partition twice now and then go through all the lovely updating and uninstalling of 90% of the crap that get's loaded. After reading much of this forum got me thinking....

Do most of you blow away the hidden partition and install a clean Windows XP SP2? What parts do you then install from a clean XP?

or.... My real thought is installing Solaris 10 x86. Anybody have any info on getting the wireless and video card working correctly on Solaris?

Another option is installing some flavor of Linux and running VMWare for Windows XP, but again wireless card config issues come to mind. And I would have to have the Windows XP O/S to be able to VPN to work.

And then yet, least desirable seems installing Windows XP as the host O/S and then VMWare for Solaris 10. Just seems wrong on so many levels to have Windows (very unstable O/S) be the host O/S to Solaris (very stable O/S).

Mostly I'm wondering what others have the best success with. I could just go dual boot but there's a distinct advantage to be able to having both O/S's running at the same time and being able to cut/paste between them. Basically work requires a Windows desktop for many apps, email etc and I'm a UNIX admin and running Windows really pisses me off.

[jdhurst]

If you have had to reimage twice in as many weeks, and if you think Windows (XP Pro) is unstable as you say, then you apparently do not know enough (1) to run Windows (2) to run VMware and (3) to run Linux.

I do all of the above, and my Windows XP Computers (two) run flawlessly. Neither requires rebuilding except under exceptional circumstances (new hard drive), the desktop runs 24x7x65 and has done for years on end, neither has ever blue-screened, both run the newest version of VMware, and both run Linux side-by-side without glitches. In addition, I use the PreLoad on both machines and while I remove 10 percent of the preload, to call 90 percent of it "crap" is to present one's self as unknowing.

Do as you wish, of course, but at least do so armed with the facts.
I apologize if you think I have been excessively blunt, but we have seen all this stuff before in here.

... JD Hurst

[atomMan]

Do most of you blow away the hidden partition and install a clean Windows XP SP2? What parts do you then install from a clean XP?

this is something i'm interested in as well (as a prospective T60 owner).

And then yet, least desirable seems installing Windows XP as the host O/S and then VMWare for Solaris 10. Just seems wrong on so many levels to have Windows (very unstable O/S) be the host O/S to Solaris (very stable O/S).

i'd be the LAST person to defend MS as i have all kinds of issues with the company, their ethics, government influence, monopolies, etc., however, in defense of the various flavors of NT, i'd submit that they are not at all unstable as long as you configure them right and watch what you install. i use NT5 and i'm not sure i can even remember when i last saw a BSOD or had it lock up. it just doesn't happen. i attribute my success, in part, to REMOVING a lot of the security hole riddled bloatware that MS thinks i need with nLite. and then i use an alternative browser, email client, media player and office apps. without IE, OE and WMP, just by themselves, the need for "critical windows updates" is reduced dramatically and, if i choose, i can still auto-scan my system for updates using Firefox. my last beef with Windows is not so much with MS as it is with s/w developers that insist on relying on IE. if it wasn't for that i'd root out IE completely.

my installs are ~1/2 the size of a vanilla XP install and i end up with a much faster, more secure, reliable OS that uses fewer resources.

oh, and i lied; the only other major gripe with windows is the registry and s/w dev's that don't know what it's for and write crappy installers that leave hundreds of entries behind at uninstall time. even MS admitted that they dropped the ball on that one because they didn't spec it right and didn't control who could write what to the registry.

[kulivontot]

In the process of playing around with Vista/XP/OS X/Linux, I broke my service partition like 30 times. I found it really hard to keep working and not really all that useful since R&R takes up too much space for me to use. So yes, I got rid of the hidden partition, but kept a ghost backup of it on a separate computer just in case I do need to restore it.... Even though I could have just as easily ghosted the windows partition instead...

[trevize]

If you have had to reimage twice in as many weeks, and if you think Windows (XP Pro) is unstable as you say, then you apparently do not know enough (1) to run Windows (2) to run VMware and (3) to run Linux.

Wow. didn't come here for personal insults.

If you had read my other post you'll see that I've been having some not so fun hardware issues. But feel free to jump to conclusions.

[trevize]

Anyway.. windows and my comment as to unstable. It's not in so much as unstable.. what really get's me is:

#1 - make a change, any change and it has to reboot!
#2 - my favorite. install some simple software and it has to reboot!
#3 - uninstall something. lol. does any developer actually know how to remove their own software?
#4 - why oh why does 90% of the software out there have to run as administrator.
#5 - crappy applications that crash the O/S. No matter how crappy the app is the O/S shouldn't crash.

I could go on and on. But the main issue is I've been using SunOS for an incredibly long time and I *LIKE* to use that OS. It's what I am comfortable with and it works for me. But working for a large financial company leaves me stuck with some Windows APPS. Namely Lotus Notes.... Sure I could get the Linux version but we're not licensed for it and they refuse to buy it. Then of course there's little things like corporate standards that require all pcs/notebooks to be built with all their "standard" crap. Logging into our network is a real treat. Login scripts that check and automatically install more Symantic products then I could name and well.. you get the idea. Basically I'm to the point where I have 2 bootable partitions. 1 for work and 1 for me to be able to do work... Because where I work being able to do your job has very little importance so long as your pc meets all the corporate standards. Some fool got it it in their head that the standard that works for the office secretary will also work for the UNIX admin team... Pretty cool when my pc is locked out of the network for having invalid software installed such as, Veritas Enterprise Adminstrator and Veritas Cluster Manager.. oh and a really good on is ECC!

[dfumento]

You'll be happy to know that Windows XP Pro 64 bit is much more stable than the Windows XP Pro 32 bit because it is built off of 2003 Server 64 bit.

That means you'll see that Vista 32 and 64 bit will be much more stable than the current XP. Another reason to upgrade.

[atomMan]

#1, 2 - often, even though s/w prompts to reboot, you don't need to in order to be able to use it. other times you can just kill the explorer process and restart it. if the s/w is installing some sort of low-level driver, then you may not have a choice.

#3 - i agree 100 PERCENT WITH THAT ONE!!! that's why i try desperately to find FOSS alternatives -- they usually script far better installers and there's generally a lot less unneeded bLOAt.

Regarding your problems at work, i'd suggest getting to know your system admin(s) rather than fighting them. they have a tough job and rules HAVE to be followed because of less knowledgeable people on the network.

[RUSH2112]

Welcome to the forum, trevize. I'm right near you, in Medford, and its always nice to see another Bawstonian here.

Anyway, I prefer Linux, but dual boot on my laptop for various reasons. I do not feel that VM is quick or stable enough, plus it can get quirky. I have pretty bad luck with Windows (we dont get along too well), but nothing that bad. I get rid of whatever I dont need, and usually run ~ 50 processes idle.

As for the IBM RnR partition, I called Lenovo and requested the restore discs. They overnighted them, no problems, no questions asked (you can also burn them yourself, but its nice to have the printed ones), so I just wiped the recovery partition. The only problem, id say, is that it takes a little longer to reover since it has to copy the files over. Note, too, that if you recover from the discs, it will restore the partition, so you'll have to delete it again after.

[jdhurst]

<snip>
Wow. didn't come here for personal insults.

If you had read my other post you'll see that I've been having some not so fun hardware issues. But feel free to jump to conclusions.

I allowed, in the part you didn't quote, that I knew I was being blunt. I am not insulting you (and sorry if you think I did). You are blaming your troubles on Windows and on the ThinkPad software, and I know, from long experience, that your blame rests elsewhere.

Again, I did not intend to insult you. But you might try not insulting those of us who know this stuff works. It is a two way street.
... JD Hurst

[jdhurst]

Anyway.. windows and my comment as to unstable. It's not in so much as unstable.. what really get's me is:

#1 - make a change, any change and it has to reboot!
#2 - my favorite. install some simple software and it has to reboot!
#3 - uninstall something. lol. does any developer actually know how to remove their own software?
#4 - why oh why does 90% of the software out there have to run as administrator.
#5 - crappy applications that crash the O/S. No matter how crappy the app is the O/S shouldn't crash.
<snip>

1. Not true. Lots of changes occur without rebooting. Certainly some changes do require rebooting.
2. Not true. I just re-installed Sun Java for example. Reboot not required. I updated UltraEdit along the way. Reboot not required. However, Adobe now makes you reboot for the 7.07 and 7.08 patches - even servers. Yuch.
3. Not true. Today, most uninstalls are clean. To be sure, some arent - for that there is Registry First Aid or some such
4. Absolutely and totally false. I know this. I do it for a living. I have fleets of machines running as restricted (most), power user (some) and administrator (none, zero, nada). I know what I am doing, too.
5. I use many applications and my clients use more. Our machines don't crash. If you are using a crappy application - change.

I think your complaints are at best gross generalizations, and more likely, unfounded. This is why my first post was as it was.
... JD Hurst

[3nigma]

Wow. didn't come here for personal insults.

If you had read my other post you'll see that I've been having some not so fun hardware issues. But feel free to jump to conclusions.

I allowed, in the part you didn't quote, that I knew I was being blunt. I am not insulting you (and sorry if you think I did). You are blaming your troubles on Windows and on the ThinkPad software, and I know, from long experience, that your blame rests elsewhere.

Again, I did not intend to insult you. But you might try not insulting those of us who know this stuff works. It is a two way street.
... JD Hurst

Whew, man...

I was going to post something, but I'm kind of scared of the possibilities...

I'll keep my mouth shut and leave it at that 0=).

EDIT:
nonny, another admin here on the forums, put it best:

Read the Rules of the Road paying particular attention to the part about no personal attacks.

Just a thought. Now I'll keep my mouth shut and leave it at that 0=).

[hary]

I agree with jdhurst,
I hear a lot about how microsoft products are crappy blah blah blah, but to tell the truth I've been happy with my win XP from the very beginning not to mention the one on my thinkpad.
I hardly reboot my system ant it's on 24/7 + sleep mode when transporting.
And it's not that i'm some kind of freak that spends 90% of my time taking care of my system, it just works.
I know a lot of people who dont follow simple rules when it comes up to keeping the system in good shape and they have problem but then again they don't even read anything, they just press next all the time.

Besides don't think that anyone insulted you, it's important that people say what the think and share opinions, especially people that we can learn much from. I personally come here for information and not just to hear kind words no matter what.

Thanks,
Kris

[christopher_wolf]

*sigh*

I have been through countless OS flamewars, and every single OS isn't as bad as it is made out to be...especially Windows if only due to the amount of impulsive rhetoric it receives. Yes, it has its problems, as do *all* OSes and software packages. The big problem is the user and when they mistakenly use one type of software or OS when another would really do the job better in a given situation. That is one of the most common, large failure when it comes to most users. Use whichever one is best for the job.

Yes, Nonny put it the best (Nonny is apt to always do that); yes, it made sense. No, posts don't need to be edited after the fact to reflect the exact same, common sense, phrase either.

*silently hopes that "0=)" does not become the next emoticon*

[jdhurst]

<snip>
or.... My real thought is installing Solaris 10 x86. Anybody have any info on getting the wireless and video card working correctly on Solaris?

Another option is installing some flavor of Linux and running VMWare for Windows XP, but again wireless card config issues come to mind. And I would have to have the Windows XP O/S to be able to VPN to work. <snip>

Please allow me to try this one again

With VMware, you can run the base system of your choice and the guest systems of your choice. I run an XP host, VMware 5.52 and a bunch of guests including several flavours of Linux. VMware also comes for Linux (not every flavour) and you can run XP as a guest within that.

The only situation I see with a Linux host is the VPN access. So far as I know (for example) the VPN client I use (Juniper Netscreen) does not come in a Linux flavour. It doesn't yet come in a Vista flavour either, so I cannot run Vista anytime soon. Unfortunately, this may be a knock out issue for you. Before this, how did you access your Corporate network with Sun OS?

So if you solve that issue and elect a Linux host, Lotus Notes should work fine in an XP guest. If you set the guest up with NAT networking to the host, then your guest doesn't need wireless, just your host. I think Linux has wireless drivers for some kinds of wireless NIC's. Once you have a connection inside the guest, Notes shouldn't care.

... JD Hurst

[carbon_unit]

trevize,
Do you use IPsec ot PPTP for VPN?

The first thing I would do is create a set of recovery disks in case you corrupt the service partition. Then you can remove the service partition if you wish.
I have been using Xandros linux on my T42 with very few issues. The wireless works fine even using WPA.
They will be releasing Version 4 Professional soon and it includes a VPN client along with a citrix client, remote desktop and NX client. You will also be able to install VMware or Parallels if you want to.

[trevize]

Making progress....

First off. By no means was it ever my intent to start yet another O/S battle. Suffice it to say I'm a unix bigot and that's not going to change. The NT admins at work and the UNIX team I lead at work have a very lively and friendly "slam dunk" O/S war going on as is. We keep it pretty friendly but even as such the NT admins do conceed the point that Solaris we patch once a year and for most our systems that the one and only reboot a year.. and they patch... well a lot! heheh anyway....

For me personally I'm trying to find my own happy medium of running the windows apps that I'm forced to and spending most my working day in the O/S I get most my "real" work done in. The trick is I have a need to be fairly mobile and presently bringing 2 laptops everywhere is obnoxious. I'd like to carry just 1. The T60p is my hope for success.

My initial issue was bad memory. Created all sorts of havoc trying to trouble shoot that.

I've made some decent progress at this point. Presently using Windows XP as a host o/s and have Solaris 10 and Ubuntu running. So far so good. Got my VPN client working as well and working with the vmware sessions as well.

I pretty much gutted the Lenovo install and removed (as suggested) all their "extra" software. Nice difference in performance that makes.

I tried to install clean from an OEM Windows XP Pro cd but it won't take the windows key on the sticker on the bottom of the laptop. Rather annoying. If I request from Lenovo a set of rescue cd's does that include a generic Windows XP cdrom or is just a set that installs all their crap again? Anyway, no matter. Pretty much have the machine too 100% they way I want it I'll be making an image backup here real soon.

[dfumento]

This might help you with a fresh XP install:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=3827

With Solaris 10, do you have all of the laptop features working such as power managment, dimming the screen, wireless, etc. If so, it would be useful if you wrote up what you had to do for the install.

[jdhurst]

Sounds like good news overall. Thanks for posting. The OEM keys are a pain because OEM licenses live and die on one machine. However, sounds like you got things the way you want.

I have no experience with Solaris, but I do have an Ubuntu 6.06 machine running on my Desktop computer as a guest (4.1Gb) and Ubuntu 5.05 machine running on my Laptop as a guest (2.9Gb). I am not yet willing to give up another 1.2Gb of my 19Gb remaining on the drive just yet, so I keep the two different versions. Ubuntu seems to work quite well and fits my (somewhat limited) Linux needs at this point.

I tried installing Sun Java on Ubuntu V6. That works and checks out on the Sun site as good. I tried to run an IRC session at another forum. It works in Windows XP (same Sun Java version) in IE 7, but the session collapses and the browser closes in Ubuntu using Firefox 1.5... I don't know yet whether a Firefox problem or a Sun problem and I am still working on it. Otherwise, Ubuntu is working.

I use Bridge Networking on my Desktop and NAT on the Laptop. I notice that automatic updater frequently quits on the Laptop and I have to run it two or three times to get all the updates. No such problem with Bridge Networking on the Desktop. Not a major issue however.
... JD Hurst

[jdhurst]

<snip>
For me personally I'm trying to find my own happy medium of running the windows apps that I'm forced to and spending most my working day in the O/S I get most my "real" work done in. The trick is I have a need to be fairly mobile and presently bringing 2 laptops everywhere is obnoxious. I'd like to carry just 1. The T60p is my hope for success.
<snip>

In theory, that should work (1 Laptop I mean). I have a client that does radio dispatch programming. All of the Tech's have Laptops, mostly T30 (which has a serial port). Some of them have VMware and a Windows 98 legacy machine. That combination does most of the radio programming software. But there is some software so old that not only does it run in pure DOS, but needs a slow machine because of software timing loops. For that, they need another computer.

I hope you succeed with one. ... JD Hurst