ergonomics vs. flexview

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allen · #1 Post by **allen** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:17 am

i recently stopped by the RCS computer experience in midtown manhattan, they actually have a more up to date selection of thinkpads than i expected. anyhow, i had been highly considering one of the 15" T60 w/ flexview, mainly for the flexview, for photo work, half the time travelling, half the time w/ external CRT.

anyhow, i'd seen the 14" T series before, and think they're a great size, but the 15" one... much larger than i expected, which also made me realize how boxy, heavy, and un-ergonomic they are.
practically right next to the thinkpad area at RCS, were the only other option i'm considering, 15" macbook pro, thinner, more comfortable to handle, say on your lap in a car/bus/train/plane. and it made the 15" T60 look that much worse.

at this point it looks like it's going to be a purchase of ergonomics vs. flexview. my guess is most here are pro thinkpad over macbook pro, but it's been bothering me over a week now, so i thought i'd try and get some thoughts here. i'd rather not spend $2500+ on a something that might leave me with cognitive dissonance. why would thinkpads not be made slightly more ergonomic? and plenty of travelling photogs do work on laptop screens, it can't be that bad can it? maybe someone will make a 14" flexview?

thanks for reading,
allen

#2 Post by **gator** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:12 am

Thinkpads are indeed ergonomic. A boxy T60 might not appeal to some people's aesthetic senses, but a large percentage of the population simply appreciate the plain, black no-frills look.

With a top notch screen (flexview) and the best, most comfortable keyboard on the market, thinkpads are more functional than any laptop out there. Form should follow function and that is where a Thinkpad exels. They are at the max 0.1" thicker than a macbook. I don't understand how you can say thinkpads are not ergonomic

.

allen wrote:...15" macbook pro, thinner, more comfortable to handle, say on your lap in a car/bus/train/plane. and it made the 15" T60 look that much worse.

If you think the 15" is too much to use on your lap, I don't see how you consider a 15" widescreen more ergonomic.

marlinspike · #3 Post by **marlinspike** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:18 am

Yeah, what he said, plus I like the T60's palmrests more and the keyboard and mouse setup. Also, remember that PS CS2 for mac is not optimized for the mac intel chips, so it runs in emulation and is slower. PS CS3 will fix this, but thats a little bit away. It really doesn't seem all that hard to handle to me. Mine is a 15" flexview, I use it on my lap in the park sometimes when I get bored with editing photos at home.

nelson · #4 Post by **nelson** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:10 am

I wish there was a 14" Flexview too. I have a 14" T60 and the one thing I really hate is the LCD. If I don't get the angle just right, it's dim. Bah. So go for the 15" Thinkpad with Flexview. It's more ergonomic to have a good bright screen you can use from wider angles. Yeah, it's a boxy beast, but we love our Thinkpad ugly.

#5 Post by **gator** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:47 am

nelson wrote:Yeah, it's a boxy beast, but we love our Thinkpad ugly.

I'd say Black beauty

SFR75 · #6 Post by **SFR75** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:43 am

I must agree - the design of thinkpad is less than thrilling. It's
definetely not sexy or pretty. However ergonomically - it turned
out to be very-very good. There are no annoyances, so that
means that everything has been thoght through. It's very
comfortable to work with and that's what it's about. Also the
customer service is top-notch.
Who cares about the hype - it's all about what you can do and
not what your computer looks like. I do illustrations/drawing and
animation and my work is a result of my skills and to some extent
to the tools I use. But definetely not to the design of the notebook
I work on.

allen · #7 Post by **allen** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:01 pm

gator wrote:They are at the max 0.1" thicker than a macbook.

thanks for all the responses, much appreciated.
as far as i can tell comparing tech specs, and also seeing them in person, it's 0.4" difference, nearly half an inch is quite noticeable. CS2 would only bother me on mac for another half year, or even if it were a year, i'd like to think i'd be using this laptop for 5 years. so it's not that big a problem.

i didnt think it was too much to use on your lap, i thought the sharp edges would be a pain in the hands and lap. i mean i guess it's not that big a deal, but for $2500+ for me, i dont want to constantly think, man this thing is big.

by ergonomics i mostly meant how it fits in your hand, like an ergonomic mouse, or a hasselblad v series vs. canon slr, not comparing those cameras, just the feel in your hands. i never had doubts about my bro's mom's or dad's 14" T4x's, but i was actually shocked at the form/shape of the 15", i'd think they'd lose quite a bit of sales on that alone.

call me crazy, and ocd, and please let me know if i have some numbers wrong, but comparing length width depth, and then volume:

img]http://www.allenying.com/SBP/LaptopSizeScreenShot.jpg[/img]
is that a 50 cubic inch volume difference b/t 15" T60p and 15.4" MBP?

i'm still very on the fence about it, but your enthusiasm makes me think i'd just get used to it... until i see wall my peers on their slim round edged mbp's and powerbooks.......

marlinspike · #8 Post by **marlinspike** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:09 pm

Will the store let you try using it in ways that test the ergonomics? For me, a big thing about Flexview adding to the ergonomics is that when it's on my lap, it doesn't matter if I move my legs the image stays fine (where a non-flexview image would require me to readjust the screen).

allen · #9 Post by **allen** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:25 pm

well, as professional and well dressed as the sales person there was, he actually wasnt very knowledgable or helpful, i was trying to explain to him flexview, and he hadnt heard of it, nor widescreen T's, which is seems like people here are told about by their sales rep's

they have working laptops on display, tethered, to use, type, etc. like most computer stores. i'm definetly going to have to make another trip back there.

i read a rumor of a 14" widescreen T60 with flexview on here... i think i'm somewhat indiferent about widescreen vs. 4:3, so if it's 14" flexview, and similar size weight and shape of the 14" T60, i might have to wait another month...

marlinspike · #10 Post by **marlinspike** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:31 pm

I think the widescreens are pretty official at this point and if you call them at 1-866-96-THINK they'll tell you if there will be a 14" widescreen with flexview.

iatacs19 · #11 Post by **iatacs19** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:48 pm

I am the rare kind of person that does not want flexview. Since I am always sitting right in front of the screen i don't need wide viewing angles, in fact I hate wide viewing angles. At work I rather have people not be able to see my screen from across the room. The incresed brightness and contrast also draw more attention to the screen more than anything. I rather have the privacy of the 14in screen, it's not like it's horrible, just not as refined as the 15in flexview. It is intersting to see the volumetric comparison between the different sized laptops. The 14in seems just right for everything.

Scratch · #12 Post by **Scratch** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:08 pm

I find in traveling with both types of machines that I prefer to carry the Mac over my T60p. I like the lack of sharp corners and I find that in actual lap usage the display of the 15" T60p overbalances the base and it's a bit tippy. It is also not as easily used on certain planes' tray tables.

Things I like about the T'Pad:

Trackpoint, Fingerprint reader, access connections (though the OSX equivalent is as good), 3 button mouse, Flexview image quality, battery life. tray type DVD, non-flashy basic black, keyboard, keyboard, keyboard, running temperature

Things That I dislike:

The aforementioned imbalance, overall size with a 9-cell (think longer and narrower), all the color management conflicting with ATI junkware, lack of auto screen/keyboard brightness controls, sharp corners & squeaky plastic, lack of firewire, crappy trackPAD buttons

So I guess my ultimate ThinkPad would be a black anodic hardcoated round-cornered aluminum housing, 15.4 WUXGA w/Flexview, trackpoint only with larger 3-button layout, 400 & 800 FW, backlit keyboard, fingerprint reader, 4 RAM slotted motherboard and full length 9-cell LI Battery and keep it to one inch overall thickness.

Is that too much to ask?

claudeo · #13 Post by **claudeo** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:05 am

Scratch, you nailed it. Lenovo, listen to Scratch

#14 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:53 am

claudeo wrote:Scratch, you nailed it. Lenovo, listen to Scratch

Somehow I don't thing an anodized housing with rounded corners is in the plans. If you think of the ThinkPad design language, it just doesn't fit.

Some of the other things Scratch mentioned hopefully are. I don't know why IBM/Lenovo dropped Firewire, for example, unless they figured that USB2 was going to be uniquitous and fast enough that they could save costs by not including it.

Perdu · #15 Post by **Perdu** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:21 pm

I looked into buying a Mac Book Pro but they run extremely hot. Apple's own site says they are not laptops and not suitable to be placed anywhere but a flat hard surface. They call the the Pro a "portable Computer." This is a lame excuse for not being able to manage internal temperatures on their macBook Pros. There cool looking, but to cool.

#16 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:19 pm

tomh009 wrote:Some of the other things Scratch mentioned hopefully are. I don't know why IBM/Lenovo dropped Firewire, for example, unless they figured that USB2 was going to be uniquitous and fast enough that they could save costs by not including it.

Following up to my own post ... the R60 does still have Firewire, although X60 lost it. And I think the T series never had it -- or did it?

paulyosh · #17 Post by **paulyosh** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:39 pm

Perdu wrote:I looked into buying a Mac Book Pro but they run extremely hot. Apple's own site says they are not laptops and not suitable to be placed anywhere but a flat hard surface. They call the the Pro a "portable Computer." This is a lame excuse for not being able to manage internal temperatures on their macBook Pros. There cool looking, but to cool.

I haven't used the first generation MacBook Pro, but do have a Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro, and it runs much, MUCH cooler than any of my T43's. I did have a standard MacBook for a while too, which also ran cooler than my T43's...

Scratch · #18 Post by **Scratch** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:52 am

I'm fortunate, too, that my MacBook has run cool. I use it in my lap when on battery and doing general browsing, mail, etc. If I'm working on something with enough heavy lifting to get the temp up, I'm probably sitting at my desk anyway.

I did note that I like the thermal qualities of T'Pads. If they did a high end box with an AL enclosure, I'm sure they'd do a good job on the heat. I'd even take a <.10" height increase if it would help the cause.

They really might have a unique product for a "niche" market if they put something like this together.

The last T'Pad that I had that had Firewire capabilities was my A31p.

claudeo · #19 Post by **claudeo** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:33 am

My wish list
- Anodized black, of course, not anodized silver, in a scratch resistant black on black finish that does not absorb and show body oil as much as the current finish.
- Tasteful rounded corners could still say "ThinkPad" while softening the handling and carrying a little bit-- by rounded I mean something like 1/4 inch radius, 1/3 inch at most, not the Mac's big eye candy kind of rounded corner.
- IEEE 1394. Silly to not have that in a modern system.
- LCD with wider viewing angle, no question. But no reflective surface to pollute the image with a reflection of every light in sight.
- A clear statement and guarantee that the system can be lifted by a corner without stressing and damaging the motherboard. This is a professional machine, not a toy to be handled delicately.
- Cleaner segregation of the ThinkVantage utilities so that one can be disabled or remove without undocumented side effects on the other ones.
- Recessed USB port to allow plugging in a small USB device that does not stick out. Vista users might use that for boot flash. Others might use that for a third party bluetooth adapter or a flash drive for backup of critical data.
- Built-in lojack or equivalent that works even if Windows cannot be started (a big problem with the current version of lojack -- it doesn't do any good does it do if you have a BIOS + HD password since Windows cannot be started and therefore lojack cannot be started and call home)
- Keep the infrared port -- I use it all the time for my Palm
- Non-destructive overload protection, user-resettable circuit breakers, or even user-replaceable fuses for the USB ports
- Stereo line in jack (or ability to switch the mono mic jack into a stereo line in)
- Speaker volume sufficient for a small conference room or to hear GPS navigation software while driving in a car (I miss my T42 there...)
- Ability to control the volume of the power/standby beep (not just the two current settings of either very loud or off)
- Keep total travel weight under 5 lbs
- Minimum battery life 3.5 hours, guaranteed for at least 365 discharge cycles.
- Keep bottom cool as in my current T60
- Reduce noise level, especially fan, to silent or nearly silent. To me and many other people, quiet operation is much more valuable than extreme performance
- Better end user documentation of R&R and CSS, with scenario-based examples.
- Warranty that works and guaranteed immediate parts availability for at least the longest offered warranty period.

allen · #20 Post by **allen** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:56 am

isnt it amazing that in this day and age, products are made lacking some of the most obvious things? and effort is put into some of the most ridiculous fancy bells and whistles. i always notice this when comparing things like computers, software, XP and OSX, digital cameras, consumer and professional, cell phones, etc. etc.

dont they listen to us?
they should, especially to those of us that are seriously particular.

#21 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:08 am

claudeo wrote:- Anodized black, of course, not anodized silver, in a scratch resistant black on black finish that does not absorb and show body oil as much as the current finish.
- Tasteful rounded corners could still say "ThinkPad" while softening the handling and carrying a little bit-- by rounded I mean something like 1/4 inch radius, 1/3 inch at most, not the Mac's big eye candy kind of rounded corner.

I actually prefer the current edgy design. I may be atypical for a ThinkPad buyer -- or it may just be personal preference in general.

- IEEE 1394. Silly to not have that in a modern system.

With USB2, this is, I think, much less critical. I have Firewire on my X31, and I have used it exactly once to try it out. What compelling (business) application requires Firewire? (And it is available on the more consumer-oriented R6 and Z6 series.)

- LCD with wider viewing angle, no question. But no reflective surface to pollute the image with a reflection of every light in sight.

Available today on selected models.

- A clear statement and guarantee that the system can be lifted by a corner without stressing and damaging the motherboard. This is a professional machine, not a toy to be handled delicately.
- Cleaner segregation of the ThinkVantage utilities so that one can be disabled or remove without undocumented side effects on the other ones.

Nice, yes, but I don't think these two will sell more ThinkPads. So I wouldn't count on those.

- Recessed USB port to allow plugging in a small USB device that does not stick out. Vista users might use that for boot flash. Others might use that for a third party bluetooth adapter or a flash drive for backup of critical data.

The SD slot (already on the X6 and Z6 series) is the right way to go here. Takes much less space, allows a permanent flash memory install for those who want it, and also enables camera users to take data off a CF card without an adapter.

- Built-in lojack or equivalent that works even if Windows cannot be started (a big problem with the current version of lojack -- it doesn't do any good does it do if you have a BIOS + HD password since Windows cannot be started and therefore lojack cannot be started and call home)

Now this would be a nice ThinkPad feature ...

- Keep the infrared port -- I use it all the time for my Palm

Mine is disabled! Too annoying to have it detect other iR devices in meetings.

- Non-destructive overload protection, user-resettable circuit breakers, or even user-replaceable fuses for the USB ports

This fits the ThinkPad robustness paradigm, and probably reduces service, too. Makes sense ...

- Stereo line in jack (or ability to switch the mono mic jack into a stereo line in)- Speaker volume sufficient for a small conference room or to hear GPS navigation software while driving in a car (I miss my T42 there...)
- Ability to control the volume of the power/standby beep (not just the two current settings of either very loud or off)

Nice, but again I think not much commercial benefit for Lenovo.

- Keep total travel weight under 5 lbs
- Minimum battery life 3.5 hours, guaranteed for at least 365 discharge cycles.
- Keep bottom cool as in my current T60
- Reduce noise level, especially fan, to silent or nearly silent. To me and many other people, quiet operation is much more valuable than extreme performance

The current models are pretty much there, depending on the performance level chosen and the usage patterns. T6 is just over 5 lbs, X6 is well below. With the right battery and reasonable usage, 3.5 hours is no problem, and will be easier yet once hybrid hard drives are available next year. (And my X31 still has 79% battery life, over 3 hours, after almos 700 discharge cycles.)

For the silent operation (as well as heat and battery life!), it would be nice if Lenovo added NHC-like functionality to the utility set. But I personally don't have an issue using NHC.

- Better end user documentation of R&R and CSS, with scenario-based examples.

See above ...

- Warranty that works and guaranteed immediate parts availability for at least the longest offered warranty period.

Warranty that works? Eh? But immediate parts availability cannot be guaranteed unless you keep massive spare parts inventory. Would you pay 30% extra (for the parts inventory) for that guarantee? I know I wouldn't.

CarrerCrytharis · #22 Post by **CarrerCrytharis** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:51 pm

Hmm, personally, although I like the MacBook's rounded silvery styling, I find my T60's matte black lid to be pretty sexy too. It has a sort of sparkly effect in it that I think looks really cool. Even on opening the laptop up, I don't think it looks bad at all.

Also, I was concerned about the weight of the 15" model, but it turned out to be just right for me. I guess I'm used to it, having carried a 15" Dell laptop, and before that one of those massive HP laptops that had a 15.4" widescreen and a desktop processor in it. Basically, I haven't had trouble with this machine's weight yet -- and that includes a trip to Berkeley and Chicago that I just did. On the bus ride back from Chicago, I was all hemmed in (I couldn't lean my seat back much because there was a woman with her baby in the seat behind me), and I had to peer at the screen from above. I really appreciated the IPS screen at that point, since I had no trouble reading or typing.

I will agree that the touchpad is kind of tiny and pathetic, especially compared to the MacBooks and MacBook Pros. But I've really grown used to using the TrackPoint -- properly customized, it's the perfect pointing device. I'm considering disabling the touchpad entirely, since I think the buttons are sometimes getting pressed by accident.

Also, I think this machine runs pretty cool -- I use it on my lap a lot, and it's never too uncomfortable.

Another very important factor is battery life. With the UltraBay battery and the 9-cell main battery, I can get tonnes of life out of the machine, which is especially useful while travelling. I haven't done proper testing or anything, but the battery meter says I can get up to 7 hours of battery life, and it definitely seems that way to me. This is one advantage over the Apple laptops that I would consider a deal-breaker, since the Apple laptops have no option for multiple batteries.

liquidous · #23 Post by **liquidous** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:13 pm

This was a nice email. Well written.

(I do not know if they do or not) but Im thinking, IBM/LENOVO would be silly not to take some of your peoples comments as serious as their next model front line profit.

I do not see any IBM/LENOVO commercials on tv. I don't watch that much any way, but ive never seen them.

The story about the overbearing laptop carrying soul out in the field or on the street , dragging their equipment with them travelling with crying baby on the bus all the way to Chicago was classic. IBM/LENOVO should make this into a commercial, showing a line of people carrying different brand computers walking into the bus, dragging their huge laptop and finding their seat. they all kind of fall into their seat , their stuff cluttered all over the place, paper and purse/wallet items scattering around the next seat, their whole life completely out of order, (cammera passing briefly each seat progressively down the isle, passing the IBM/LENOVO seat, coming to the next cluttered seat, then taking on a whole life of its own, returning quickly back to the IBM seat as if it just realized something) and shows a guy/woman (vice versa in subsequent commercials to capture both female and male professionals markets) with their hands behind their neck, a green tea, sprite or bloodymary resting on their spacious, uncluttered, Zen-like seat with their feet stretched out, and their 'stuff' neatly slid under the seat and packing spaces with room to spare , camera zooming in on this black-book looking object until the viewer starts to see a Green light -led on constantly , projecting an understanding in the viewer that the IBM/LENOVO machine (showing its brand name under the light of the green led) is no reliable force to reckon with or judge prematurely, until the next laptop you own starts to change your life and you realize that could be you in that spacious , organized, and peaceful bus seat. (obviously because of owning a ThinkPad - that i might add has a staminuous bright led on like the prudential Rock! ) forget mac like eye candy corners, our candy is light in the green spectrum.

(HEY MARKETING DEPARTMENT - IF YOU USE THIS IDEA, I GIVE YOU PERMISSION BUT YOU MUST GIVE ME A SHARE IN PROFIT (from all commercials related) EQUAL NEGOTIABLE TO BE THE AMOUNT OF THE SALES SPIKE DIRECTLY REPORTED AFTER THE PUBLIC VIEWING OF THIS COMMERCIAL. )

(I own a 17lb laptop with a 5pound powersupply, i WAS that person in the cluttered bus seat and a few airplanes around the world a few times and back again, can't wait to buy a ThinkPad t60p. meaning if anyone here wants a beautiful powerhouse of a desktop replacement practically new and with warranty PM Me, its in box and ready to ship.)

CarrerCrytharis wrote:

Also, I was concerned about the weight of the 15" model, but it turned out to be just right for me. I guess I'm used to it, having carried a 15" Dell laptop, and before that one of those massive HP laptops that had a 15.4" widescreen and a desktop processor in it. Basically, I haven't had trouble with this machine's weight yet -- and that includes a trip to Berkeley and Chicago that I just did. On the bus ride back from Chicago, I was all hemmed in (I couldn't lean my seat back much because there was a woman with her baby in the seat behind me), and I had to peer at the screen from above. I really appreciated the IPS screen at that point, since I had no trouble reading or typing.

I will agree that the touchpad is kind of tiny and pathetic, especially compared to the MacBooks and MacBook Pros. But I've really grown used to using the TrackPoint -- properly customized, it's the perfect pointing device. I'm considering disabling the touchpad entirely, since I think the buttons are sometimes getting pressed by accident.

Also, I think this machine runs pretty cool -- I use it on my lap a lot, and it's never too uncomfortable.

Another very important factor is battery life. With the UltraBay battery and the 9-cell main battery, I can get tonnes of life out of the machine, which is especially useful while travelling. I haven't done proper testing or anything, but the battery meter says I can get up to 7 hours of battery life, and it definitely seems that way to me. This is one advantage over the Apple laptops that I would consider a deal-breaker, since the Apple laptops have no option for multiple batteries.

marlinspike · #24 Post by **marlinspike** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:13 pm

I remember seeing the commercials a lot for a short period of time(that's how I found out about the airbag system) but they seemed to have stopped. It was a clever commercial I thought.

#25 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:24 pm

marlinspike wrote:I remember seeing the commercials a lot for a short period of time(that's how I found out about the airbag system) but they seemed to have stopped. It was a clever commercial I thought.

Lenovo has a bunch of their ThinkPad TV commercials on their web site. I don't watch enough TV (and especially not enough US TV channels) to have seen them though:

http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/media/notebook ... er_30.html
http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/media/notebook ... s_wmv.html
http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/media/notebook ... e_wmv.html
http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/media/notebook ... e_wmv.html
http://www.ibm.com/pc/us/media/notebook ... _spot.html

marlinspike · #26 Post by **marlinspike** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:58 pm

The one I saw wasn't any of those. It was these guys at a bar, one guy working on his laptop. I forget how it went exactly but basically one guy is like aren't you afraid of that falling and the guy with the thinkpad says no and explains the airbag, then the other guy knocks it over and the thinkpad guy gives him a dirty look, picks it up, and it's fine, or something like that.

allen · #27 Post by **allen** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:51 pm

i just want to say,
i like how thinkpads are serious professional business oriented machines, but sometimes everyone thinks that's all their for.

i was definetly happy to see on here that there are photographers using them for flexview. and, if you havent noticed, designers, video/film makers and photographers are business people as well, we have to sell our art right? so, although i dont need firewire, barely ever, some do, and line in audio, why wouldnt you have the option for that? especially a digital one. some of the other requests def made sense as well. i wouldnt want to see thinkpads(or the windows os) turn into a, "look how cool and fun we are," machine, (that's mac [censored]) but there are other people using 'em that arent your typical business person, that still are serious about getting their work done.

marlinspike · #28 Post by **marlinspike** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:14 am

allen wrote:i was definetly happy to see on here that there are photographers using them for flexview.

I'm one of them. I've never used firewire in my life (even though my last laptop had a port).

claudeo · #29 Post by **claudeo** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:33 am

Some of us do use firewire. For example, I used firewire last year in India (with a PC card plugged into my T42) to transfer some 30 hours of digital video clips from a couple of DV camcorders to a USB hard disk over 4 days. The PC card solution was less than optimal; it would tend to crash after about 30 minutes, which means that I had to baby-sit the process. Driver problem, of course. I really would have liked to have had a built-in port with ThinkPad certified drivers.

snessiram · #30 Post by **snessiram** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:59 am

I too use firewire for connecting a DV camcorder, however, long time ago I last did...

I never saw a thinkpad commercial...

ergonomics vs. flexview

ergonomics vs. flexview

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