Laptops galore - 5 Thinkpads in for evaluation

[tomh009]

That's a bad habit?

Oh yeah, it's really bad to the motherboard.

I actually do know that ... but with the X31, there is little enough weight and chassis flex that it has been known be picked up by a corner from time to time.

[WPWoodJr]

Nonsense, not bankrupt.

BOE (one of the largest LCD manufacturers of the world, based in China) bought Hydis (mainly for the patents), transferred a lot of work to BOE China and refused Hydis the money to continue in their niche market with specialized displays.

Not nonsense at all, here is the announcement from the company:
http://www.boehydis.com/eng/07_mis/news_view.asp?idx=79

"In response to a petition for corporate rehabilitation filed by BOE HYDIS on September 8, 2006, the Seoul Central District Court has made a formal decision on September 29 to begin the company's rehabilitation process."

Since (you say) IPS displays are on the outs for laptops, what's replacing them? I haven't seen anything as good.

[WPWoodJr]

OK, I've made the big decision - T60p with 15" 1400x1050 Flexview screen wins the day! I like the bigger text, the gorgeous saturated colors, the wide viewing angle. I've tried profiling this screen with Monaco OptixPro and with Argyll and amazingly I could not improve on the unprofiled screen, in fact it got worse.

I don't really need widescreen and it sticks out of my bag too far. Don't get me wrong, the T60 1680x1050 widescreen is really nice, its just not for me.

[jlr18]

OK, I've made the big decision - T60p with 15" 1400x1050 Flexview screen wins the day!

This has been a very helpful thread, thanks...

BTW, did you notice any weight differences between the 15.4" and the 15" IPS? I'm trying to decide between those two models (or the light n' trusty T60, although it's a bit dim for my taste), and I'm trying to get the brightest screen in the lightest package.

[WPWoodJr]

BTW, did you notice any weight differences between the 15.4" and the 15" IPS? I'm trying to decide between those two models (or the light n' trusty T60, although it's a bit dim for my taste), and I'm trying to get the brightest screen in the lightest package.

I didn't really notice the difference. Actually, I've decided to get the 6 cell battery to cut back on 5-6 oz of weight and reduce the size in my bag. I can always buy the 9 cell if needed.

[Growly]

Hey guys,

I'm super excited about getting a new T60 - I've wanted one for years and have only just come up with the money for one.

Luckily, that means that money is no object for this purchase (within reason).

This thread started to concern me, as I was set on the T60p (model 20078JM), which has a 14.1'" SXGA 1400x1050 display. From what I'm reading, it's absolute crap.

Live in New Zealand, and I'm checking the NZ Lenovo site, and this is the only model with the 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo chip, and I see no potion to change the display type...

And if I've missed out on 1600x1200 Flexiview because I took to long to order, then dammit all!! DAMMIT!

*sigh* Someone console me.

Is there a model with the best of everything? I thought the t60p infront of me was it. Is there a model with a better display but the same specs otherwise?

Forgive me my ignorance

[tomh009]

There never were any UXGA T60s/T60ps with Core 2 Duo. It's one or the other ... The UXGA models can still be found on eBay, if you prefer that to Core 2 Duo.

[Growly]

There never were any UXGA T60s/T60ps with Core 2 Duo. It's one or the other ... The UXGA models can still be found on eBay, if you prefer that to Core 2 Duo.

Oooh, I was under the assumption that - but of course. Silly me.

Very silly.

Can I hope for better quality displays then? I know that it's pot luck really, but was kinda hoping for something a bit more concrete to base my hopes on.

[beeblebrox]

Nonsense, not bankrupt.

BOE (one of the largest LCD manufacturers of the world, based in China) bought Hydis (mainly for the patents), transferred a lot of work to BOE China and refused Hydis the money to continue in their niche market with specialized displays.

Not nonsense at all, here is the announcement from the company:
http://www.boehydis.com/eng/07_mis/news_view.asp?idx=79

"In response to a petition for corporate rehabilitation filed by BOE HYDIS on September 8, 2006, the Seoul Central District Court has made a formal decision on September 29 to begin the company's rehabilitation process."

Welcome to globalisation!
Some friends of mine recently lost their job at Philipps Displays in Holland. Philipps Displays went legally into bankruptcy. Funny things is, that a brand new factory will be opened soon in the Czech Republic. For one Dutch engineer you get a bus full of Czech engineers.

Same at Siemens in Germany. The (suddently!) legally separate entities of Siemens (which were part of the large conglomerate before) went into receivership when BenQ shut off the money supply. Funny thing is the new cell phone factory in China. A Chinese engineer is as good as European, and costs $ 3,- a day.

Hydis is located in expensive Korea. Guess what... the patents and customer relationships are now with BOE, which is ... in China.

The only good news is that capitalism follows the cheapest labor. In 20 years China will be replaced by Vietnam, maybe followed by African countries by 2100?

[WPWoodJr]

Live in New Zealand, and I'm checking the NZ Lenovo site, and this is the only model with the 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo chip, and I see no potion to change the display type...
...
Is there a model with the best of everything? I thought the t60p infront of me was it. Is there a model with a better display but the same specs otherwise?

The US site allows you to configure the T60p with a 15" 1400x1050 Flexview screen:
http://shop.lenovo.com/

[WPWoodJr]

Here's my quote from Lenovo:
T60P - 15" SXGA+ Flexview Display with Wide Viewing, Intel Core 2 Duo T7600 2.33GHz, 2GB Memory, 100GB 7200rpm HD, ATI MOBILITY FIRE GL V5250 256MB, DVD RECORDABLE 8X MAX DUAL LAYER, Intel a/b/g wireless, Fingerprint Reader, Bluetooth, 3 year onsite warranty, 3 year ThinkPad Protection warranty.

Cost: $2,493.00

[WPWoodJr]

I had a chance to test a Mac Book Pro over Xmas and must say the screen is very nice. Brightest screen I've tested at 237.51 cd/m2! Angle of view is pretty good, but not as good as Flexview. Color is very blue like the other non-Flexview laptop screens. I've updated the second post in this thread with its stats.

The MBP is a very nice machine, small for its size (15.4") and elegant. Sound is good from the speakers placed next to the keyboard. But it is difficult if not impossible to replace the hard drive, and there is no ultrabay and no Trackpoint mouse.

[pianowizard]

The MBP is a very nice machine, small for its size (15.4") and elegant. Sound is good from the speakers placed next to the keyboard. But it is difficult if not impossible to replace the hard drive, and there is no ultrabay and no Trackpoint mouse.

Also, the highest resolution is only 1440x900.

[WPWoodJr]

Here's my quote from Lenovo:
T60P - 15" SXGA+ Flexview Display with Wide Viewing, Intel Core 2 Duo T7600 2.33GHz, 2GB Memory, 100GB 7200rpm HD, ATI MOBILITY FIRE GL V5250 256MB, DVD RECORDABLE 8X MAX DUAL LAYER, Intel a/b/g wireless, Fingerprint Reader, Bluetooth, 3 year onsite warranty, 3 year ThinkPad Protection warranty.

Cost: $2,493.00

I got my T60p with Flexview display last week and I must say that I love it! Here are its statistics as measured with Monaco OptixPro:

T60p 15" Flexview 1400x1050
Black 0.25 cd/m2
White 172.80 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 691:1
Avg dE: 3.89

Slightly better than the evaluation T60 I had in late last year. I have done extensive comparison of this monitor with images printed on my Epson R800 and have decided that this monitor does not require profiling -- I have set my default monitor profile in Windows to sRGB. Any attempt at profiling this monitor just makes things worse in some little way.

[allen]

have decided that this monitor does not require profiling

really? what about the high contrast and saturation?
and you dont set it to the thinkpad flexview profile that it came with? what brightness/backlight level do you set at?

i used the spyder2, at 2.2 gamma and native white point, brightness/backlight at full, and i think it's slightly better than no calibration at all...

[Puppy]

Some friends of mine recently lost their job at Philipps Displays in Holland. Philipps Displays went legally into bankruptcy. Funny things is, that a brand new factory will be opened soon in the Czech Republic. For one Dutch engineer you get a bus full of Czech engineers.

This is typical for banana countries like here (Czech Republic)

[WPWoodJr]

really? what about the high contrast and saturation?
and you dont set it to the thinkpad flexview profile that it came with? what brightness/backlight level do you set at?

i used the spyder2, at 2.2 gamma and native white point, brightness/backlight at full, and i think it's slightly better than no calibration at all...

There are two stages to applying a .ICM (color profile) file created by Spyder2 or Monaco OptixPro. As you know, the first stage (calibration) is to run the video LUT loader which sets the white point and gamma by modifying the video LUT tables. The second stage is to use a program like Photoshop or ACDSeePro which loads the profile and uses the color response information within to color correct the image before displaying it on the monitor. This second stage will greatly increase saturation on most laptop LCD monitors which don't have a good color response to begin with (unlike the Flexview screen which has good response to begin with).

FYI the native gamma of the 1400 x 1050 Flexview screen is about 2.05. The native white point is around 5800. The brightness with backlight on full (which is how I set it) is somewhere between 1.62 and 1.74 cd/m2. This as measured by Monaco OptixPro.

I found that the LUT-based gamma calibration (first stage) created by Spyder2 over-compensates the shadows making them too bright compared to images printed on my Epson R800; I found the same for Monaco OptixPro. In addition the Monaco software, even though set to produce a gamma curve of 2.2, actually produces a gamma curve of 2.4 when applied to the LUT. Both of these issues (too bright shadows and wrong gamma curve) are then corrected by Photoshop and ACDSeePro during the second stage of color correction.

So, when just applying the LUT-based first stage of calibration, the results were less pleasing/accurate than the uncalibrated monitor response. The default Flexview monitor response without calibration is actually quite accurate in the shadows.

During the second phase of color correction, I found that there was pretty much no difference between the profiled monitor response and the unprofiled monitor response on most images, and on those where there was a difference generally the "corrected" color was not as good as the unprofiled monitor response. For example, certain shades of blue ended up looking purple. The Spyder is worse in this regard than Monaco OptixPro (which uses table based compensation).

I tried the TPFLEX monitor profile supplied with the ThinkPad, and that creates horrible problems with blues turning purple during the second phase of color correction. That profile is awful.

So, I've decided not to use any monitor specific profile as the monitor appears to be profiled to sRGB already. I have made sRGB my default monitor profile.

[allen]

wow, thanks for the info, but, i guess i should've been clearer.

the flexview lcd, no matter what i do, is always too saturated and too contrasty... you don't feel that way too?

[WPWoodJr]

wow, thanks for the info, but, i guess i should've been clearer.

the flexview lcd, no matter what i do, is always too saturated and too contrasty... you don't feel that way too?

No, as I said in my post, the unprofiled FlexView LCD monitor appears to be accurately calibrated to sRGB already (except for the gamma which is a touch bright at 2.05). I don't know why you say it is too saturated; my guess is that you are used to LCD monitors which have poor color response.

[allen]

well, hmm, i was mostly judging off a sony external CRT, HMD A240, 17" trinitron, calibrated with spyder2 as well, gamma 2.2, 6600k, contrast all the way up, brightness at 60 according to being able to distinguish black squares... i thought that would be more accurate than the LCD... am i wrong?

[WPWoodJr]

I've calibrated at a number of different ThinkPad monitors and external ViewSonic monitors and the FlexView out-of-the-box looks the same or better than those monitors in their calibrated state. When looking at images on the Sony, are you looking at the images using a color managed program such as Photoshop or ACDSeePro with color management turned on?

BTW, you and I appear to have the same T60p configuration. My model number is 2008-ZWM - is that yours as well?

[allen]

well, i guess i should trust your judgement over my CRT's, i'm using PS CS2 to judge, my model number is 2613-CTO, which i think CTO stands for something that means customized or configured to order?

now that i've had the spyder2 profile installed, i can't seem to turn it off. i've taken the profiles out of the list of profiles associated, and turned off the spyder2 startup thing, and when it starts up, i still see it load the changes... i want to turn it off to compare.
when i just choose sRGB in the profile chooser i get an error that there is no calibration information attached...

[WPWoodJr]

You have to remove the Spyder2 loader from your startup sequence. It's probably under Start...All Programs...Startup.

Then go into Display properties...Settings...Advanced...Color Management and set sRGB to be the default monitor profile.

I don't know why the Sony looks less saturated than the FlexView. Photoshop determines which monitor profile to use by looking at the default monitor profile so you must be sure before running Photoshop that the default monitor profile is set to the one that corresponds to the monitor that you are using.

[allen]

i tried taking it out of startup and removing all the profiles except sRGB, it didnt work. i shall try again.

in photoshop, i set the actual working profile to stay at adobeRGB1998, but i should still make sure the option for monitor profile says the same profile as the one i've created with spyder2? that definetly gets confusing when setting my LCD as primary, but for the tool palettes, and the CRT for main editing screen.

by the way, everyone seems to think the profile chooser for spyder2 can't choose seperate profiles for the CRT and LCD when running extended desktop display, but my machine can...

[jjfcpa]

I had a chance to test a Mac Book Pro over Xmas and must say the screen is very nice. Brightest screen I've tested at 237.51 cd/m2! Angle of view is pretty good, but not as good as Flexview. Color is very blue like the other non-Flexview laptop screens. I've updated the second post in this thread with its stats.

The MBP is a very nice machine, small for its size (15.4") and elegant. Sound is good from the speakers placed next to the keyboard. But it is difficult if not impossible to replace the hard drive, and there is no ultrabay and no Trackpoint mouse.

Regarding the comment "there is no ultrabay and no trackpoint mouse".

I've got a T60 and a Macbook Pro and all I can say is that I invested a lot of money in ultrabay add-ons and loved the trackpoint, and what I should have done is invested in USB add-ons (because they are universally accessible by future laptops) and with the two finger scrolling on the MBP, I don't miss the trackpoint at all.

All in all, the LCD on the MBP is brighter and clearer than the one on the TP and I'd trade that for the trackpoint any day.

[WPWoodJr]

...what I should have done is invested in USB add-ons (because they are universally accessible by future laptops) and with the two finger scrolling on the MBP, I don't miss the trackpoint at all.

All in all, the LCD on the MBP is brighter and clearer than the one on the TP and I'd trade that for the trackpoint any day.

I need the ultrabay as I run with 2 100gb 7200rpm hard drives. And the MBPro screen can't compare to Flexview.

[WPWoodJr]

i tried taking it out of startup and removing all the profiles except sRGB, it didnt work. i shall try again.

in photoshop, i set the actual working profile to stay at adobeRGB1998, but i should still make sure the option for monitor profile says the same profile as the one i've created with spyder2? that definetly gets confusing when setting my LCD as primary, but for the tool palettes, and the CRT for main editing screen.

by the way, everyone seems to think the profile chooser for spyder2 can't choose seperate profiles for the CRT and LCD when running extended desktop display, but my machine can...

Like I told you in another thread, color management isn't simple.

1) Remove all gamma loader or LUT loaders from your startup including Adobe Gamma, the Spyder program, Monaco Gamma, etc
2) Reboot to clear the video LUT tables
3) Right-click the desktop and go to Properties...Settings...Advanced...Color Management.
4) Set the default color profile to be sRGB. You may have to click the Add button to locate it.

Now when you run Photoshop it will use sRGB as the monitor profile for your Flexview screen and also your second monitor. Your working space, Adobe RGB, is fine.

Photoshop can only manage one monitor profile at a time. It uses the monitor color profile that is the default for the system, as set above.

[WPWoodJr]

We just got the Dell UltraSharpTM 2707WFP 27" monitor and the Dell™ UltraSharp™ 2407WFP 24" monitor in at work. Both of these monitors are gorgeous and the 27" has a relatively large color gamut compared to the other monitors I've tested. So large that the profile produced by Monaco OptixPro actually has to tone down the colors somewhat! I've updated the second post in this thread with the stats of these two monitors.

[vision33r]

I had a chance to test a Mac Book Pro over Xmas and must say the screen is very nice. Brightest screen I've tested at 237.51 cd/m2! Angle of view is pretty good, but not as good as Flexview. Color is very blue like the other non-Flexview laptop screens. I've updated the second post in this thread with its stats.

The MBP is a very nice machine, small for its size (15.4") and elegant. Sound is good from the speakers placed next to the keyboard. But it is difficult if not impossible to replace the hard drive, and there is no ultrabay and no Trackpoint mouse.

The Apple MBP series is a consumer product not a corporate one. The reason Apple designed it is for styling and to prevent tampering and gives them service contracts to sell and service.

If you want to use MBP for office, prepare to have extras for loaners, they have issues as well so be prepared.

[hoya]

WPWoodJr - do you recall if your T60 Widescreen shipped with a LG or Samsung panel? according to this page both Samsung and LG Phillips are producing 15.4" panels:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-66977