Thinkpads Forum

My last post, which is unedited below, was deleted after being locked. I will be reposting this so others do not make the mistake of buying lenovo. While this site claims to be an open forum, my seemingly unbiased post was locked then removed.

Im sure this will be deleted soon as well. I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.

Original post
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I was going to post this as a reply to the discussion about ips or widescreen. Since the machine decided to turn off in mid-post I decided to make it its own thread.

If your thinking about buying a lenovo, save time and money and dont.

The ips display, while having a great viewing angle, is sub par. The brightness is noticably lower then any other equally priced laptop. It also seems that the ips's have a huge rate for dead pixels. Dead/stuck pixels have risen over the months, up to 4. (not the mouse issue from way back). Red/green. I did extensive searching when the machine first arrived so I am resonably sure these are occuring over time, reguardless of other posts.

The gpu gets insainly hot from even just idle work. In gaming or opengl rendering forget it. 110 is low and I have had it shut off multiple times with no warning because of temp. Just boom, loss of work.

The duel core, while quite a bit coolor, is still way hotter then other duel cores in its class. (broad statement, but true)

The acpi and power mangement is so buggy that its even able to be written over by lm_sensors and other similar linux apps. (Which I was luckily able to avoid.) Not to mention the hiss that is present under any other os then windows without the ac plugged in. Confirmed that on this board with others.

The acpi also keeps the machine from booting randomly, in both linux and windows. Power management is also so backwards that the fan actually speeds up when being unplugged in any os besides windows. This is without a temp increase. Just the threshholds change.

So yep, after the machine being out for over a year, there are still unresolved issues that should never have even made it into production.

In lenovo's defense, Ive been out of my home country for a bit and havent contacted support even though the issues have been plaguing me since purchese in jan06. I'll update this thread when I do. Im suspecting that I will be sending the machine off to asia which is fine but for a nearly 4 thousand dollar laptop (at the time) =( anything more then a week off in repair is not acceptable.



*title changed to be more inline with the karma on the board. - nekt

nekt wrote:I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.

Well, I had unlocked the original thread and was in the process of responding about why a moderator might have locked it when you posted this. Now you're not worth my time.

nekt wrote:Im sure this will be deleted soon as well. I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.

It will if you continue disagreeable behavior exactly like that.

nekt wrote:My last post, which is unedited below, was deleted after being locked.

Until I learn differently, I'll blame it on an overzealous Moderator.

This IS an open Forum, we welcome reports of owner's negative experiences.

James

Going to only respond to a few parts

The screen: Might be a tad dimmer, but find me one that is brighter, and also keeps its color, and not inverted when moving up and down and around.

The CPU temps: My 2.16ghx C2D idles around 45C, pegs out at 65C under full load to both cores. What other laptop can do this with minimal fan noise? The macbooks idle in the low 80's, and there full load is triggering the thermal throttling at 95C and above.

The GPU temps: A bit high for my liking, but has never gone above 85C even under gaming.

The ACPI causing posting issues is pretty strange. I have been through numerous reboot cycles between ubuntu, winxp, os-x, and others, and have yet to have a time where it didn't spring back to life after the quick restart.

Your fan issue is probably because you have the thermal profiles for AC and Battery different in the BIOS. There are different settings that will change how it comes on, at what speed, etc.

First off, I still even enjoy this machine with these failures, I just wouldnt buy it again. Since I used this forum 100% in my decision making process, my only goal is to add a different perspective since most on the board seem to have success.

Screen: Im not sure what this screen is rated, but every sony I have compared it to, most of which I also own and are multiple years old, have had both crisper colors and higher brightness. I dont spend alot of time viewing my laptop from the side so I guess I not getting the full bonus from IPS.

CPU: Dont have a c2d so perhaps that is the diff in temp. I have never idled at anything less then 60c. 69c is idle temp which is fine.

GPU: 79idle

ACPI: Its not a post failure, its when the os tries to pull irqs from the acpi. This happened randomly in slackware/windows for about 6 months. Ive now switched to suse as it is better supported by lenovo and the issue is still randomly present. Rare, but there.

nekt wrote: CPU: Dont have a c2d so perhaps that is the diff in temp. I have never idled at anything less then 60c. 69c is idle temp which is fine.

GPU: 79idle

The core 2 duo's are about same at idle, and can consume 1-2 more watts under full load. Temps should be about equal for similar speed processors.

What is the average room temp of the area you are working in? Do you ever have the laptop on a soft surface like a pillow or bed? The only times I can ever get my temps to get really high is when some of the intake ports are smothered on my bed working late at night.

Hate to keep bumping this since its negative, but i do want to respond.


Im super carefull about keeping the vents free. Temps rise very quickly when they are covered, as could be expected with any. The machine is 100% of the time on a solid suface.

nekt wrote: my seemingly unbiased post

unbiased..?

I hate to interfere with the dueling dual cores, herein above, but I feel compelled to ask what the results are when running the factory windows XP preload..?

same inferior display brightness and insanely high temperatures..?

meanwhile, why not keep your hyperbole' attenuated and deal with facts so someone can help you..

nekt wrote: Im sure this will be deleted soon as well. I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.

wanna bet..?
first, others were discussing how best to tell you to tone it down a bit when you ran off like a steam locomotive huffing and puffing downhill and posted this post..

second, if I did not want you continually frothing at the mouth I would deactivate your user account..
and ban your IP..
and more..
but that has not happened..
why? because this place is for support..
those whose thinkpads work fine (the majority) are unlikely to complain..

so, please do NOT veer off into meaningless hyperbole' (hereafter BS) like those evening newscast teasers..

furthermore, while I don't use my personal T60p (200794U) 24/7 I find that it is the equal in display brightness with all previous T series and R50p and A series, all with the same UXGA display..

this T60p runs cooler, AFAIK, than my T43p, T42p and so forth..

and before you say it, NO!
IBM hates me (and so too, I suppose, does lenovo by extension), so I am NOT saying this because I am a dealer (I WAS and maybe still am a PCVar but the [censored] refuse to give me a BP Status because they say thinkpads.com will confuse people into thinking that I am part of IBM or lenovo) so what I say here is my reality..
not colored by any friendly relationship with IBM or lenovo..

it appears, from the froth on your teeth, that you are [censored] and frustrated but you admit not giving lenovo a chance to make things right..

nekt wrote: The ips display, while having a great viewing angle, is sub par. The brightness is noticably lower then any other equally priced laptop. It also seems that the ips's have a huge rate for dead pixels.

ohhh, more BS !!
if you have a bad display then send it in for warranty repair..

and no amount of complaining will change that..
if your display keeps popping up new stuck pixels, wait a month and there will be enough to trigger a display replacement..

nekt wrote: So yep, after the machine being out for over a year, there are still unresolved issues that should never have even made it into production.

argh.. even more BS

the T60p has NOT been out for over a year..
they were ANNOUNCED a year ago..
and you have been a user here since 26-june-2006..

nekt wrote: In lenovo's defense, Ive been out of my home country for a bit and havent contacted support even though the issues have been plaguing me since purchese in jan06. I'll update this thread when I do. Im suspecting that I will be sending the machine off to asia which is fine but for a nearly 4 thousand dollar laptop (at the time) =( anything more then a week off in repair is not acceptable.

you must have been the first to get a 15 inch T60p..
in Jan 06..

BUT, why have you not contacted support if these problems have been so vexing..?

you've had a year, you say..

and last i heard, European repairs were still done in the UK or Scotland..
I would suggest taking it in person to a decent service center and wait for them to diagnose the problems and make repairs..
and make an appointment, first..

please tone it down and present your problem(s) factually..
in order if you have more than one real problem..
without more BS (meaningless hyperbole')..

p.s. don't expect me to spend much more time on this as I must make a real living..

1) I have purchased all Thinkpads since 1992 (TP 700C, etc)

The T60P is the best TP

I am using it 24/ 7

2) Only a problem with a blak spot on the screen but I have no times to bring it for repair as I use it 24/7

No dead pixel

3) For me the T60P is the best bargain money can buy

Yves
T60P CU8

my comment on my T60:
My T60 still has problem on LCD scrren, buzzy noise emitting from entire LCD panel after I dim the LCD. NOTE, no noise comes out when the brightness at maximum level.
I have replaced my entire LCD, motherboard; however, problem does not be solved yet. Maybe my local IBM service does not know how to fix it? or I should think about sending my T60 to IBM tech service center. But, I can not live without my laptop coz I have to do a lot of task on my computer.
Fan, I still feel uncomfortable with the noise compared to my T42 which is VERY quite!!!!
OVER, I still like my T60 and I get my experience for purchasing Lenovo. that is, If I am gonna get another new laptop, I will buy integrated graphic card instead of X1400 or whatever new design.

Without trying to pour more fuel on the fire...for about 20 minutes my ip was restricted from re-reg'n and my current account was disabled. My first post, while titled "Lenovo = Trash" was, besides the title, fairly tame. Only after having the post deleted did I get slightly angry.

As far as the temps go, the more I browse this board, the more I see others with the exact same issue. So there is a problem with the ati video card hitting 110c and failing. Enough to where there are other posts on the board about it. Just since this discussion has started, the machine has halted 3 times - all during heavy graphical workload. I suppose its better that it halts without warning rather then burst into flames.

I also have not personally attacked anyone, so I don't see the point in quotes like, "I actually have to make a real living."

Since the machine arrived in the mail I have enjoyed it. Even still I do. Its just not right for a $$$ machine to have such prevalent heating issues.

I am from the states and will be sending this off for repair as the other posts have recommended as soon as i return.

------- Added After Post -------
It is possible my display is defective. It has a slight yellow hue to it, which i have corrected by upping the blue hue to 1.25. This has also been documented on this board and I was told by my "sales rep" that it is working as intended. 4 dead/stuck pixels does not qualify me for a new display. I will be asking the support tech about this as well. Again, I have enjoyed this machine a great deal, that is, until it began halting without warning. The pixels dont bother me a bit though, cant even see them unless I try to focus on them - and only then in a total black display.

----- Last edit, I promise -----
Factory default windows is actually the windows Im still using. Besides the upgrades from lenovo I have installed nothing that would change power management or heat/fan control. Just one more gripe....to much [censored], yes [censored], on factory install =), though I still wait for it all to load each reboot.

nekt wrote:...
Im sure this will be deleted soon as well. I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.
...
nekt

While I do agree that (some) moderators in these forums are into bean counting micro-management of threads (all the way into stating how many lines are permitted in quotation blocks), I for my part of long abandoned turf wars in cyber space.
Specially in somebody else's WWW forum.
After all, this is Bill's web site and that gives him (or the people he appoints for that) the authority (not the morallity) to delete whatever he wants to.

And now to your points about the T60p.
I myself sold mine just a few days ago, but I still find most of your arguments flawed.
Specially the ones about the Display, the fan and the ACPI interface.

The Display was just fine on my unit, not a big improvement over previous versions, but how to improve upon perfection?

The fan did not bother me, and I can assure you I don't run Windoze.
So I would suggest yours might have been faulty.
The heat issue was not nearly as bad as with the A31p and after all this is a DUAL CORE CPU!
And finally the ACPI interface, yes its a burden.
But that is because its new technology.
I also have problems with those drivers on my non-Windoze operating system, that is because the ACPI specs are not really open as ACPI was mostly designed with Windoze in mind.

So blame it on th eLinux programmers, but then again they mostly work for free and with the same limited access to specs.
And last not least, ACPI in laptops is a new technology - just as Dual Core in the T60p.
Never forget tha leading edge is bleeding edge!

I lost a lot of $$$ on my T60p, but I accept that as the cost of doing business.
Better luck with the next Dual Core system.

nekt wrote:If your thinking about buying a lenovo, save time and money and dont.

Here is my take on this:

If you want to rant about a product, don't do it on a site devoted to that product. You won't get much sympathy there. All that will likely happen is a flame war to which no one benefits. If you want to rant about a ThinkPad, do it on a Dell, Acer, HP, or other notebook forum. If you want to rant about a Dell, don't do it on a Dell forum, an Acer, don't do it on an Acer forum, etc. You get the idea.

If you have issues with one or more features that you need help with, or you have service related problems, then this is a good place for help and advice. If there are features you would like to see improved or added, then post such, but in a professional businesslike manner. That way, if and when any Lenovo people happen to browse this forum, they may take your post seriously and work to improve the product in the future; whether hardware or software.

EDIT: One final point. This is not a Lenovo sponsored site. It is a privately owned forum for the benefit of ThinkPad owners. I suggest if you want to rant to Lenovo, there are various ways of doing it directly.

Lenovo changed its return time from 30 days to 21 days and returned machine may be charged a 15% restocking fee. This is one thing that potential buys should be aware of.

HP offers 21 day no-questions-asked return policy.

Meanwhile, the user loyalty of thinkpads should be much envied by other laptop manufacturers.

Some quick responses

1 - the screen on my 2613hqu (t60p) seems just as good in terms of brightness as on my dell m70 (and having used both, I prefer the t60p overall )

2 - gpu temps are consistently in the range 70-100. Never had any crashes due to overheating, even when playing half life 2 on max settings.

3 - running debian etch (on my 'work' hard drive) I've never had the slightest problem with acpi. If you use a recent kernel then the ibm_acpi package should be included. Getting suspend2 to work is... interesting, and getting active fan control to work (rather than just having the gpu fan running continuuously) is... even more interesting, but it is doable if youre prepared to do kernel recompiles. In fairness, I never bothered with either, as the standard acpi stuff is all I need.

And yes, I do run extremely intensive codes, so if something was going to turn into molten slag it would have done so by now.

Forgot to add - I have a 2.33GHz merom, 2Gb memory and the 5250 graphics card.

If you want to get debian etch going, heres some helpful links:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category: ... T6x_series
http://www.kraus.tk/installnotes/T60/ThinkPad-T60.htm
http://vizzzion.org/?id=t60#issues

When I did it (last week) everything worked pretty much out of the box. The only things to watch for are:

1 - Make sure youre using a very recent kernel (2.6.18+ I think)
2 - fglrx is not installed by default, so if you want to have accelerated graphics then you'll need to get it (with apt-get) and build it (with module assistant).

question to nekt..

were you not in europe last night..?
(this is why showing a real location is important)

regardless, now you show columbia..

i am not sure of the local repair facilities in south america but again, if it were me and if i were not wanting to let it go for a few days to a possible week i would be eyeball to eyeball with the repair people..

one time, years ago (with a 770) it took me an hour of talking on the phone to get the service supervisor and tech to take the [censored] thing into a DARK room so they could see the defects on the display..
once they SAW the problem, the display was immediately replaced, no further discussion was needed..

i think you have some problems that need to be addressed when you have the time to address them..
meanwhile, cool your jets and relax a bit.. please..

but i would not wait too much longer as you can see what the long wait now is causing..
unilateral crashing..

OH!, one thing more, the site was flaky in the early AM today, no one has limited your ability to froth.. yet..

I'm actually still in Holland. A little town east of Amsterdam called Nunspeet.

The NL location was a bit out of date from when I spent the summer here with the woman. (when i first reg'd to the site).

As far as not posting negative comments about a product, I almost feel it would be a disservice to readers should I not.



Also, all of these temp issues I have been discussing are on windows.

For linux, I would be hard pressed to find anything more suitable then SuSE. Its practically supported by lenovo and they provide a few drivers for it - though out of date from what you can find on the manufactures website.

Have a patched kernel running hdaps perfectly, hardware accel for the fglrx, suspend, and even xgl for the xserver (simply amazing if you haven't checked it out yet).

My temps are a cool calm 60cpu -72gpu for linux, no issues here. Its in windows that the poor baby burns up, and not always under heavy graphical load.

Either way I will refrain from further frothing and hopefully respond in a few weeks with an update on a repair ticket.

nekt wrote:If your thinking about buying a lenovo, save time and money and dont.

You need to understand that every laptop manufacturer makes a dud now and then. You just happen to have one of those. If you had bought five or more Thinkpads and all of them had serious issues, then it would be more reasonable to decide never to buy a Lenovo.

BTW, I had an A31p with an IPS display and it was perfect in every way even after three years of use.

nekt wrote:As far as not posting negative comments about a product, I almost feel it would be a disservice to readers should I not.

It doesn't matter that negative comments are posted. It doesn't even matter that it's an angry message. What matters to us is that it's done in a manner that doesn't disrupt the forum and that will generate the most productive discussion. Posting things like

I have more ips and time to repost then you have time to delete my posts.

isn't going to help you get your problems solved and sends up red flags with the mod staff.

If that makes me a micro-managing bean-counter, then so be it.

Yeah, I locked it this time. It's beyond useful.