Help me choose my T60

[orca3000]

Hi everyone. I am new here. I've already posted the message below in notebookreview forum. I decide move it here in hope of gettng more responses.

I ordered my t60 on Jan 30, but a credit card glitch forced me to cancel the order. Now Wista is out and Iam trying to choose between the following two systems.

My original order 87445BU plus 1GB ram upgrade and 9-cell battery(about CND$330 extra with custom installation)
ThinkPad T60 Series - A Lenovo Topseller Selection

Part Number: 87445BU

Price: $1,699.00

Processor Operating
System RAM
(std) Hard Drive Media Wireless
Intel® Core 2 Duo T7200 - 2000MHz Genuine Windows XP Professional 1024 120 DVD Recordable 24X Max ThinkPad 11a/b/g/n Wi-Fi wireless, Bluetooth

Operating System: Genuine Windows XP Professional Screen: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT 1680x1050 Onboard Graphic Chipset: ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 HyperMemory Onboard Audio: Intel High Definition Audio Included Modem: 56Kbps data/14.4Kbps fax Hard Drive Controller: Serial ATA Onboard Network Contoller: Gigabit Ethernet- Integrated 1000Mbps,100Mbps,10M Battery Type: 6 Cell Lithium-Ion PCMCIA Support: 1 Type I/II and 1 ExpressCard/54 or 34 External Speakers: 2 (Internal Speakers) Warranty: Three years parts and labor (system battery: one year) Wireless:ThinkPad 11a/b/g/n Wi-Fi wireless, Bluetooth


Now I have the option to choose 8744J2U
ThinkPad T60p Series - A Lenovo TopSeller Selection

Part Number: 8744J2U

Price: $2,129.00

Processor Operating
System RAM
(std) Hard Drive Media Wireless
Intel® Core 2 Duo T7200 - 2000MHz Genuine Windows Vista Business 2048 100 DVD Recordable 24X Max Bluetooth Wireless (1-05), Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG (Mini-PCIe)

Operating System: Genuine Windows Vista Business Screen: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT 1680x1050 Onboard Graphic Chipset: ATI Mobility FireGL V5250 Onboard Audio: Intel High Definition Audio Included Modem: 56Kbps data/14.4Kbps fax Hard Drive Controller: Serial ATA Onboard Network Contoller: Gigabit Ethernet- Integrated 1000Mbps,100Mbps,10M Battery Type: 9 Cell Lithium-Ion PCMCIA Support: 1 Type I/II and 1 ExpressCard/54 or 34 External Speakers: 2 (Internal Speakers) Warranty: Three years parts and labor (system battery: one year) Wireless:Bluetooth Wireless (1-05), Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG (Mini-PCIe)


The t60p come with Vista business, standard 2GB memory, v5250, and 9-cell battery (I prefer 9-cell), but I will lose the Athero wireless n card which is supposedly superior to Intel cards (Athero draft n card is not available as an accessory from Lenovo Canada).

Should I stick to my original order or go for the t60p? I don't do any 3D work at the moment but might run ArcGIS and possibly a few biology programs that build 3d molecular models in the future (just speculation). Are there any significant drawbacks of v5250 in terms of video play back and casual gaming? I think it's at least a little better than x1400.

In addition to that, my university have not migrated to Vista yet and officially offer no support(They say they are still training the IT staff. They will stick to xp for another year I guess). I am not sure if I should jump on to the bandwagon right now. On the other hand, upgrading to Vista later can be a hassle especially after installing all my programs and customize xp to my liking.

Both of the systems are well within my budget, so money is not a problem.

Sorry about the long post. Many thanks to anyone willing to offer help.

[agarza]

I'd say go with the newest configuration, at some point you'll need the horsepower of V5250, also is better to have a machine with the new Windows for the same point of view you consider. You could in the future upgrade to the Atheros card, no problem there.

The V5250 is the top-of-the-line card offered in Thinkpads. I don't know by how much it surpass the X1400 but it have 256MB. To my knowledge there are no drawback on V5250 performance.

I'll just say go for the new config.

[dsalyers]

Well I would say with the cost difference between the two systems would have to be taken into account.

As far as the video cards:
The V5250 video card is not substantially different the the v5200 card (it is a little faster), but uses the same chipset as the X1600. the v5200 and the v5250 are underclocked, so they will not perform as well as the X1600 for gaming applications. (you can find modified drivers that will increase the clock speek of the v5250 such that its' performance is as good as the x1600 in games)

However, both cards should beat the performance of the X1400. The nicest thing about going with the V5250 is that you get double the memory for the video card, which can make a difference.

As far as the 802.11n card goes, if you don't get an 802.11n card now, you may not be able to get one in the future as the 802.11n cards require two antennas and the g cards only require one. You might be able to get one added, but they would have to dissasemble the screen housing and probably void any warrenty.

Now, the main question to ask as far as the n card goes (in my opinion), is will this make much of a real difference? There are not many 802.11n wireless hotspots, and even as they do come more common they will likely be set for compatibility mode with a/b/g. If this is the case, and there are "legacy" devices present, your performance will likely be indistinguishable from the other non-n cards.

The same is true for (802.11g in mixed mode) you really only get a substantial performance difference when operating in a g-only environment.

A side note, Windows Vista would not be a selling point for me. Even if I went with the T60p (which I have one) I would want XP instead. From my experience Vista isn't ready. It might be in another 6 months, but I will wait at least for SP1 (due out near the end of the year).

[ryengineer]

[Assuming the prices are excluding any gst+pst]

Well, if I were you I would go for T60 because:

1. Intel's wireless card is one of the worst I've seen. [ I am experiencing alot of issues with mine, signal problems mostly even where signal is good ]

2. Vista, maybe I'm being too picky but I would like this OS to settle down and go through hard patches before I get it on my machine. Remember wii remotes?

3. ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 is suitable for your kind of work, especially if you're not a hardcore gamer.

4. You can get new memory sticks and a 9 cell battery easily and your total will still be less than $2129.

Good Luck.

[deeastman]

If you can purchase the 8744C9U you would most likely get everything you want. It is the same as the 87445BU except 2G of memory, 100G HD, FireGL V5250 and 9 cell battery. It also has 802.11n.

The price should be about the same as the 8744J2U since the configuration is the same except for XP and 802.11n on the 8744C9U.

[tomh009]

The V5250 is the top-of-the-line card offered in Thinkpads. I don't know by how much it surpass the X1400 but it have 256MB. To my knowledge there are no drawback on V5250 performance.

... other than potentially higher power consumption (ie reduced battery life) and increased heat (ie more fan noise). High-end graphics tend to use a lot of power; if you don't need it, don't buy it.

There ain't no free lunch.

[ibm meister]

J2U... go for it... it's obsolete before you know it as it is. WXP is done. It will be like buying a new car losing $10K right off the lot. Your Vista machine will perform better longer, AND retain value.

Get the best bang for the buck

[dr_st]

J2U... go for it... it's obsolete before you know it as it is. WXP is done. It will be like buying a new car losing $10K right off the lot. Your Vista machine will perform better longer, AND retain value.

XP is far from done (any machine you buy today is likely to become obsolete way before XP does), and Vista is a resource-hogging slow pile of puke right now. Kinda like XP was when it was released. I'm completely with ryengineer on this one - it'll take a while before Vista becomes a stable and worthy operating system.

[orca3000]

... other than potentially higher power consumption (ie reduced battery life) and increased heat (ie more fan noise). High-end graphics tend to use a lot of power; if you don't need it, don't buy it.

How much battery life will I lose?

If you can purchase the 8744C9U you would most likely get everything you want. It is the same as the 87445BU except 2G of memory, 100G HD, FireGL V5250 and 9 cell battery. It also has 802.11n.

This model is apparently not offered in Canada. I could not find it on Lenovo Canada's Website.

Now, the main question to ask as far as the n card goes (in my opinion), is will this make much of a real difference? There are not many 802.11n wireless hotspots, and even as they do come more common they will likely be set for compatibility mode with a/b/g. If this is the case, and there are "legacy" devices present, your performance will likely be indistinguishable from the other non-n cards.

From what I heard so far, Athero cards in general have much better receptions and less issues than intel cards. Draft-N should also at least increase signal quality and range even on b/g networks. I am, too, worried about the extra antenna. I don't really wan to mess around with my machine at least for the first two or three years other than may be upgrading the harddrive. After that, I might consider operating on the old soul (Pity, technological advance is so relentless.) if I can get significant benefit.

[tomh009]

J2U... go for it... it's obsolete before you know it as it is. WXP is done. It will be like buying a new car losing $10K right off the lot. Your Vista machine will perform better longer, AND retain value.

Get the best bang for the buck

The best bang for the buck is actually the GMA 950 integrated graphics -- runs Vista and Aero without any trouble at all, uses little power and runs cool. Not good for gaming, though, so really need to consider the intended use when choosing the most appropriate graphics option.

[tomh009]

... other than potentially higher power consumption (ie reduced battery life) and increased heat (ie more fan noise). High-end graphics tend to use a lot of power; if you don't need it, don't buy it.

How much battery life will I lose?

In rough terms, the X1300 will cost 15-20% of battery life over the integrated GMA 950, and the V5250 will cost another 15-20% over the X1300. With the V5250 you may want to opt for the bigger 9-cell battery in order to still get decent battery life.

[pianowizard]

J2U... go for it... it's obsolete before you know it as it is. WXP is done. It will be like buying a new car losing $10K right off the lot. Your Vista machine will perform better longer, AND retain value.

I agree with you on the value part, but agree with dr_st that at present XP is the better OS to use. However, if the OP is going to keep this laptop for several years, by the time s/he needs to sell it, the difference in value would be very small, kind of like selling a T23 with Win2K vs. one with WinXP today (both would sell for around $300).

[Patrick B]

Just as a comparison, I currently have a T60 with the X1300 in it, and it seems to be the best mix between power and battery life.

That being said, I don't play a lot of FPS type games which are dependent upon high frame rates....for that matter, I don't play a ton of games at all. But of the ones I do, they're generally RTS or Turn-based SIMs, like Civ IV or Galactic Civ, or Rise of Nations. Those do fine on the T60 with the x1300. And I can easily get 5 hours out of the 9 cell battery.

As to the choice between the 3945 A/B/G and an 802.11n card, I'd personally go with the A/B/G choice. Many (not all) 802.11n cards have support for 2.4 GHz only, which means that any 5 GHz hotspots are unusable for you, and as noted in the other thread, 2.4 GHz *can* be subject to interference.

The Draft N standard is just that...still in draft format, and for some reason, the two sides can't seem to sort it out. 802.11 a/b/g are all solid, so you can pretty much guarantee that they'll work as advertised. With the current stock of 802.11n draft products, it's up in the air as to whether or not two vendors will successfully work at 'N' speeds (though they should drop back to 11g speeds if 'N' doesn't work).

As to Vista vs WXP...I'd stick with XP for the time being. Vista has yet to prove itself to me, and as noted, your laptop will be obsolete long before the OS is. Personally I'd be holding off for at least 6 months before making the jump to Vista.


Patrick

[orca3000]

Oh dear, so hard to get a consensus. I have to order within the next 24 hours.

And yes, I plan to keep the machine for at least 4 years.

Patrick, I obviously cannot follow every single advice on your post unless I tear apart the two systems and the recombine them. Which one is the better trade off?

[tomh009]

If you're looking for a consensus, you're looking in the wrong place!

If you are choosing between the two models (looks like the choices through visaperks.ca?), I would suggest sticking with the T60. You get Atheros abgn (generally viewed as preferable); and the X1300 will be plenty fast for what you expect to do with it, save batteries and run cooler.

And the extra memory is cheaper aftermarket ...

[ryengineer]

J2U... go for it... it's obsolete before you know it as it is. WXP is done. It will be like buying a new car losing $10K right off the lot. Your Vista machine will perform better longer, AND retain value.

I agree with you on the value part, but agree with dr_st that at present XP is the better OS to use. However, if the OP is going to keep this laptop for several years, by the time s/he needs to sell it, the difference in value would be very small, kind of like selling a T23 with Win2K vs. one with WinXP today (both would sell for around $300).

Well, alternatively one can buy oem version of Vista later on.

Again T60 has better specs.

[deeastman]

Well, alternatively one can buy oem version of Vista later on.

As I understand the Vista Software Upgrade program, if you purchase a system from Lenovo with Windows XP Pro on it through March 15, you still get Vista Business for the price of shipping.

Am I incorrect in my interpretation of the Vista Upgrade Program from Lenovo? If not, I would prefer to buy a system with XP on it and get the FREE Upgrade to install at a later date when initial issues have been addressed. Seems to me you get the best of both worlds.

Edit: Here is the link for the upgrade

http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/microsoft/vista/upgrade.html

[orca3000]

Does anyone here own either one of the two models (or T60p wide screen with similar spec, since J2U is a brand new model)? Could you please share your experience? I wish 8744C9U is a option for me

I know about the Vista upgrade. It's just that upgrading Appears to be a big hassle. Lots of people are not very satisfied with the Moduslink upgrade website and their service. I am also worried that upgrading from xp can be problematic in terms of getting the right drivers and keeping Thinkvantage and my own programs working properly.

[ryengineer]

Does anyone here own either one of the two models (or T60p wide screen with similar spec, since J2U is a brand new model)? Could you please share your experience? I wish 8744C9U is a option for me

I own 87445BU, I think its a very good machine.

[ibm meister]

The XP system IS certainly tried and true at this point. But all the focus will now be turned to Vista, obviously. I know corporate environment that are still actually using 2000. But... for average consumers keeping up with computer obsolensence, a Vista MADE machine is still the best choice. If you buy an XP machine, it may be Vista "capable", but there are a ton of Lenovo components that are NOT Vista compatable that would intimidate the average user to upgrade.
Run the Vista upgrade advisor on an XP machine and see how many components will not work with Vista and will need to be removed prior, reinstalled, etc..............................

Time to move on... Vista will be steadier as the days go by, it's not a Windows Me Pink Elephant. MS has ALL their marbles in the Vista basket.

[dr_st]

Vista will be steadier as the days go by, it's not a Windows Me Pink Elephant.

Probably true. And when it happens, _THAT_ will be the time to move on. Also, it's so resource-hogging that it's not even funny, and I doubt that's gonna change. So I'd wait for computers to be a bit stronger than currently, before I'd install Vista on them. Just like I wouldn't install XP on a Pentium II (although some do).

[orca3000]

I found something strange. According to this page from Lenovo, neither 87445BU nor 8744J2U have the third antenna even though 87445BU have the n card.
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... PLYCOUNTRY

Still can't decide which one to go for. Does anyone have experience playing openGL games such as Call of Duty with v5200 card?

[Zeus]

not sure, but I play BF2 really well with the V5250 at max settings.

[orca3000]

I just called lenovo Canada. 8744J2U is not upgradable to internal 802.11n card because it has only two antennas. So I can either stick to 87445BU, or go for 8744J2U and wait for external 802.11n solution in the future.

Any new suggestions?

[Patrick B]

I just called lenovo Canada. 8744J2U is not upgradable to internal 802.11n card because it has only two antennas. So I can either stick to 87445BU, or go for 8744J2U and wait for external 802.11n solution in the future.

Any new suggestions?

Personally, I wouldn't give two shakes about 802.11n support now or anytime in the near future. I suspect the machine will be obsolete before the N standard is finally ratified and agreed upon. I also suspect that most vendors won't be able to offer firmware upgrades from the Draft N standard to the final, ratified N standard (speculation on my part there....but history shows.....).

So really it's about Vista vs Win XP. My own preference is for WinXP, but let's look at the numbers:

$1700 vs $2130....so $430 difference, for a previous generation OS.

An upgrade to Vista in the future from WinXP is likely to cost you $200 alone.

The 9 cell battery is a $130 upgrade, though you *could* keep the 6-cell, or simply unload it here or on eBay.

You get a better spec'd machine with the T60p; ATI v5250 vs x1400, better battery, 2GB RAM etc. Is all this worth the roughly $200 net difference (once the OS is factored in)? Up to you, but that would be my vote.

I'd personally go with the better spec'd machine DESPITE Vista, than with the poorer spec'd machine just to avoid it. I'm not big on Vista (yet), but it will eventually take over.

My vote: T60p.


Patrick

[tomh009]

So really it's about Vista vs Win XP. My own preference is for WinXP, but let's look at the numbers:

$1700 vs $2130....so $430 difference, for a previous generation OS.

An upgrade to Vista in the future from WinXP is likely to cost you $200 alone.

Isn't the 8744-5BU still eligible for the free Vista Express Upgrade?

[pianowizard]

Isn't the 8744-5BU still eligible for the free Vista Express Upgrade?

Free Vista Upgrade was available only: 1) before Vista was officially released at the end of January, and 2) to models that were supposed to come with Vista. The 8744-5BU is supposed to have WinXP Pro.

[orca3000]

Free Vista Upgrade was available only: 1) before Vista was officially released at the end of January, and 2) to models that were supposed to come with Vista. The 8744-5BU is supposed to have WinXP Pro.

As far as I know, all Vista capable Thinkpads sold before Mar 15 is eligible for Vista upgrade. That's what Lenovo says on their website.
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... STA-UPGRAD

On the other hand,just how bad is Intel wireless? If Athero is so much better, I might just well stick to that. I saw quite a few Intel problems on the forum, but the appearance is probably skewed because only people who have problems post here and in other forum.

[tomh009]

Free Vista Upgrade was available only: 1) before Vista was officially released at the end of January, and 2) to models that were supposed to come with Vista. The 8744-5BU is supposed to have WinXP Pro.

As far as I know, all Vista capable Thinkpads sold before Mar 15 is eligible for Vista upgrade. That's what Lenovo says on their website.
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... STA-UPGRAD

That's the way I read it, too. So it should be available for this one ...

On the other hand,just how bad is Intel wireless? If Athero is so much better, I might just well stick to that. I saw quite a few Intel problems on the forum, but the appearance is probably skewed because only people who have problems post here and in other forum.

You have noticed the Internet forum effect.

I believe the Intel wireless is decent. Maybe not as much range as the Atheros, but for 90% of the people the two would be functionally equivalent.

[orca3000]

Maybe I should just flip a coin.