FlexView SXGA+IPS?

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Oscar-B · #1 Post by **Oscar-B** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:10 pm

Hi,

Just on the point of purchasing my first Thinkpad and the T60 (model No. UT0FVUK) Intel Core 2 Duo, T5600, 1.83 GHz, just about fits my budget.

On Lenovo's website the screen is described as a TFT FlexView, while similar models are described as SXGA+IPS TFT FlexView.

Having spoken to Lenovo and a couple of retailers here in the U.K. about the differences, I was told that they were the same screen.

I had always thought that the SXGA models were brighter? Could anyone enlighten me on this, and if there is a difference, how much?

I've got to put an order in for one fairly soon so any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

ThinkTay · #2 Post by **ThinkTay** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:39 pm

Oscar, the screens are the same. The first screen is the SXGA+ screen. Lenovo terms its IPS screens as "Flexview" which are all 1400x1050 (SXGA+)

SXGA is a resolution, and has no relation to brightness. Order worry free

Puppy · #3 Post by **Puppy** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:50 pm

Buy it fast

It seems as top-quality IPS screens will be discontinued soon with no option in the future (see other threads here).

T60 uses LG.Philips LP150E05. The panel is no longer offered as you can see on their web. The closest LP150E06 is not IPS but ordinary TN crap you find in other notebooks.

Oscar-B · #4 Post by **Oscar-B** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:34 am

Excellent, so glad I found this forum.
Thanks.

beeblebrox · #5 Post by **beeblebrox** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Puppy wrote:Buy it fast It seems as top-quality IPS screens will be discontinued soon with no option in the future (see other threads here).

T60 uses LG.Philips LP150E05. The panel is no longer offered as you can see on their web. The closest LP150E06 is not IPS but ordinary TN crap you find in other notebooks.

I definitely would wait until the new Thinkpads T61 are out in mid May!
Although IPS would be discontinued, these screens were not really that good. Better than TN, but nowhere near any good MVA or PVA display. The only decent IPS display I know are the Apple Cinema displays, which have S-IPS panels. Check the thinkpad hardware manual and see that IPS has around 400:1 contrast, at best.

My new Samsung 19" has PVA with 1200:1 contrast (static, not dynamic) and blows any IPS away.

Check the new Macbook Pro Core2Duo, they use PVA displays now. I guess with the new T61 widescreen, PVA will become the new Thinkpad high-end standard. That's where research is going on at the moment. 4:3 is being phased out in production.
Just giving you some hints...

Dimitri_P · #6 Post by **Dimitri_P** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:57 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Although IPS would be discontinued, these screens were not really that good. Better than TN, but nowhere near any good MVA or PVA display. The only decent IPS display I know are the Apple Cinema displays, which have S-IPS panels. Check the thinkpad hardware manual and see that IPS has around 400:1 contrast, at best.

My new Samsung 19" has PVA with 1200:1 contrast (static, not dynamic) and blows any IPS away

...because it is not about contrast comrade...

TN < PVA/MVA < IPS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

"MVA (Multi-domain Vertical Alignment) was originally developed in 1998 by Fujitsu as a compromise between TN and IPS"
Duh...

"PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) and S-PVA (Super Patterned Vertical Alignment) are alternative versions of MVA technology offered by Samsung. Developed independently, it suffers from the same problems as MVA, but boasts very high contrast ratios such as 3000:1"
Duh^2

dr_st · #7 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:05 pm

PVA/MVA can't hold a candle to IPS.

http://lcdresource.com/tools/matrix-of-all-matrices.htm

boyAfraid · #8 Post by **boyAfraid** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:22 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I guess with the new T61 widescreen, PVA will become the new Thinkpad high-end standard.

beeblebrox,
do you know for sure that lenovo plans to incorporate pva screens into the new thinkpads? or, are you just speculating? this would be news to me. i would rather have ips, but pva is still better than tn. to me, at least...

thanks,
bA

beeblebrox · #9 Post by **beeblebrox** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:35 pm

Dimitri_P wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Although IPS would be discontinued, these screens were not really that good. Better than TN, but nowhere near any good MVA or PVA display. The only decent IPS display I know are the Apple Cinema displays, which have S-IPS panels. Check the thinkpad hardware manual and see that IPS has around 400:1 contrast, at best.

My new Samsung 19" has PVA with 1200:1 contrast (static, not dynamic) and blows any IPS away
...because it is not about contrast comrade...

TN < PVA/MVA < IPS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

"MVA (Multi-domain Vertical Alignment) was originally developed in 1998 by Fujitsu as a compromise between TN and IPS"
Duh...

"PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) and S-PVA (Super Patterned Vertical Alignment) are alternative versions of MVA technology offered by Samsung. Developed independently, it suffers from the same problems as MVA, but boasts very high contrast ratios such as 3000:1"
Duh^2

yeah, thanks, another one who just quotes a wikipedia article.
I know that article and I think it needs a certain technology update. The article might have been correct a few years ago.
Besides, quoting unreflected information is not helping much, e.g. the 3000:1 contrast ratio for PVA is dynamic with illumination modulation, which has nothing to do with the LC crystals.

Besides, a TN display has a much higher total transparency than IPS displays. So by using a more efficient (higher light absorbing) color filter and a strong backlight you can get a better color saturation than a conventional IPS display. Focusing polarisation foils with light enhancement capabilites (i.e. light direction modulation) can also increase your total brightness experience.

I think I was wrong with the Macbook, I just heard it uses a wide angle S-TN and no PVA display.

beeblebrox · #10 Post by **beeblebrox** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:44 pm

dr_st wrote:PVA/MVA can't hold a candle to IPS.

http://lcdresource.com/tools/matrix-of-all-matrices.htm

I doubt, that this matrix makes any useful sense.
Just look at the TN data:
TN displays have the lowest brightness, with IPS the highest brightness.

In physical terms this just doesn't make sense, because the transistor & address line ratio compared to pixel area is much worse in IPS displays. The more transistors and adress lines you need for a pixel, the less visible are for the color filters you have.
And needing a stronger backlight to achieve the same brightness as a TN display is one of the major problems of IPS displays. The just need much more current to achieve the same display brightness. Of course, with dual CCFL, as most IPS displays utilize, you have a higher brightness.

Another hint: Horizontal viewing angle for TN...

I think, this matrix is hopelessly outdated, looks like 1999/2000 to me. I don't know.

Just check a TN display of a Thinkpad T20 (really crappy) to a TN display of a HP DV6000 (excellent). 7 years of R&D.

Puppy · #11 Post by **Puppy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:51 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I think I was wrong with the Macbook, I just heard it uses a wide angle S-TN and no PVA display.

I would guess so. There are not any other notebooks on the market having anything better than horrible TN. They might improve horizontal viewing angles a bit only but vertical are still poor.

Constrast is not everything. I bet these high values over 1000:1 are measured under special conditions and are valid from direct view only. S-PVA and A-MVA are getting better but (except higher constrast) can not much the quality of x-IPS regarding color gamut and viewing angles.

Another useful links about LCD technology:
http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/561
http://www.techmind.org/lcd/

beeblebrox · #12 Post by **beeblebrox** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:51 pm

boyAfraid wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:I guess with the new T61 widescreen, PVA will become the new Thinkpad high-end standard.
beeblebrox,
do you know for sure that lenovo plans to incorporate pva screens into the new thinkpads? or, are you just speculating? this would be news to me. i would rather have ips, but pva is still better than tn. to me, at least...

thanks,
bA

I don't know, to be honest. But there is certain need for high-end displays (medical, CAD/CAM, multimedia) and there must be a ThinkPad fulfilling that lucrative need. I don't see any new widescreen IPS for notebooks coming, so Lenovo would have to use the best available for their top line.

I definitely know for sure from colleagues, that if you order a Dell 620 you can get either a TN or a PVA display (great company policy, isn't it?) depending on their availability.

I suggest to put a Thinkpad IPS next to the Macbook Pro Core2Duo and see the difference (what I did).

Puppy · #13 Post by **Puppy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:57 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I definitely know for sure from colleagues, that if you order a Dell 620 you can get either a TN or a PVA display (great company policy, isn't it?) depending on their availability.

I'm wondering who makes notebook PVA panels ? Do you have a model number ? Dell uses the same policy for LCD monitors, that's why I would never buy them

Dimitri_P · #14 Post by **Dimitri_P** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:04 pm

beeblebrox wrote: yeah, thanks, another one who just quotes a wikipedia article.
I know that article and I think it needs a certain technology update. The article might have been correct a few years ago.
Besides, quoting unreflected information is not helping much, e.g. the 3000:1 contrast ratio for PVA is dynamic with illumination modulation, which has nothing to do with the LC crystals.

Besides, a TN display has a much higher total transparency than IPS displays. So by using a more efficient (higher light absorbing) color filter and a strong backlight you can get a better color saturation than a conventional IPS display. Focusing polarisation foils with light enhancement capabilites (i.e. light direction modulation) can also increase your total brightness experience.

I think I was wrong with the Macbook, I just heard it uses a wide angle S-TN and no PVA display.

My russian friend who's an engineer literary quoted - "guy is ill; standard diagnosis - "i see big numbers..." disease"

Troels · #15 Post by **Troels** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:11 pm

Well Samsung's high horse is PVA, and i believe still no-one but Samsung produces PVA panels. They sell TN panels for notebooks and nothing else (LTNxxx...).
If a demand isn't there, Samsung won't do a [censored] thing to introduce PVAs - and let's face it - the demand is at a minimum. Screen resolutions and terms like "CrystalClear" "BrightView" sells better.
Look at their range - now you can't find new desktop monitors below 19" with PVA panels.

As mentioned, there are different methods of measuring contrast ratios. None of them are really wrong, it's just that most manufacturers nowadays want as high numbers as possible. A little bit like PMPO vs. Prms/Ppeak with speakers.

I have played with a Dell D510 and a Tohiba Tecra A6-117 and a desktop 19" WS Fujitsu TN lcd. Actually they were more similar than i'd hope - No matter what color profiles were used, tuning - it always looked like poop. I'm sorry, but the colors have no depth, red can't be reproduced correctly and always shows a pink tint. Yellows looked washed out. The only thing they do decent was in the cyans.
Maybe there is a large difference between TN manufacturers though.

I think the TN is a money machine. Average Joe wants a cheap LCD, as large as possible, and it must be good for gaming. TN looks horrible, but it's inexpensive. I think it has gotten worse through the years with the increased transistor overdrive.

Dimitri_P · #16 Post by **Dimitri_P** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:13 pm

Well said

dr_st · #17 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:37 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I think, this matrix is hopelessly outdated, looks like 1999/2000 to me. I don't know.

Aha, because in 1999/2000 we had technologies like S-PVA and A-TW-IPS.

taob · #18 Post by **taob** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:55 am

dr_st wrote:Aha, because in 1999/2000 we had technologies like S-PVA and A-TW-IPS.

... and if you believe the timestamp in the HTML source, that page was last updated on October 30 2006!

WPWoodJr · #19 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:12 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I suggest to put a Thinkpad IPS next to the Macbook Pro Core2Duo and see the difference (what I did).

That's what I did and while the MBP was brighter the LG Flexview IPS SXGA+ had far better viewing angles and the color response/saturation was much better. Like most laptop screens, the MBP is very blue and not accurate (not to mention low res).

#20 Post by **archer6** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:38 pm

Oscar-B wrote:Hi,

Just on the point of purchasing my first Thinkpad and the T60 (model No. UT0FVUK) Intel Core 2 Duo, T5600, 1.83 GHz, just about fits my budget.

On Lenovo's website the screen is described as a TFT FlexView, while similar models are described as SXGA+IPS TFT FlexView.

Having spoken to Lenovo and a couple of retailers here in the U.K. about the differences, I was told that they were the same screen.

I had always thought that the SXGA models were brighter? Could anyone enlighten me on this, and if there is a difference, how much?

I've got to put an order in for one fairly soon so any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

For clarification, TFT stands for Thin Film Transitor, all ThinkPads use this type of display.

IPS is the type of technology that provides more accurate colors, color saturation, color depth and added brightness.

SXGA+ refers to the resolution of the display.

As someone who has a tremendous amount of experience with lots of T series ThinkPads, I find the SXGA+ IPS display to be brilliant on all fronts. Easy on the eyes, great brightness, clarity and readability.

One can debate all day long about the printed data, but in real world usage, there is nothing that compares to the superiority of the display we are discussing.

I use a 15" T series SXGA+ IPS every day in my work. I'm in front of the computer for 8-10 hours and I have found a very noticeable difference and improvement since I first began using the IPS just over year ago. I would highly suggest this display.

Cheers...

sb37 · #21 Post by **sb37** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:58 pm

do you typically use it at full brightness archer?

#22 Post by **archer6** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:38 pm

sb37 wrote:do you typically use it at full brightness archer?

Great Question!

This is the first display that I can enjoy at a variety of settings as usually with the rest I just leave them on full bright. However I use this one at different levels of brightness depending on the ambient light levels. I've used it set as low as 1/3 of max and it's just perfect in low ambient light. I have found this to reduce eye strain from an overly bright display in a low light environment.

Also I really love that the brightness is so easily adjusted with the FN key combination. Fast, accurate and fun.

Cheers.....

Puppy · #23 Post by **Puppy** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:18 am

archer6 wrote:I use a 15" T series SXGA+ IPS every day in my work. I'm in front of the computer for 8-10 hours and I have found a very noticeable difference and improvement since I first began using the IPS just over year ago. I would highly suggest this display.

Unfortunately it seems they are going to be discontinued

#24 Post by **archer6** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:17 pm

Puppy wrote:
archer6 wrote:I use a 15" T series SXGA+ IPS every day in my work. I'm in front of the computer for 8-10 hours and I have found a very noticeable difference and improvement since I first began using the IPS just over year ago. I would highly suggest this display.
Unfortunately it seems they are going to be discontinued

Yes, sadly I've heard this as well. While there are many theories and stories out there regarding why. I do have the facts from a expert source. It's simply a matter of cost, these displays are too costly to maintain the profit margin the manufacturers are looking for.

taob · #25 Post by **taob** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:42 pm

Wow, I'm glad I ordered my T60 when I did then! I'm at a professional photography conference in Vegas right now, and there are a lot of people drooling over the FlexView and its matte anti-glare surface. I never understood why someone would want one of those glossy, reflective screens...

WPWoodJr · #26 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:54 pm

archer6 wrote:Yes, sadly I've heard this as well. While there are many theories and stories out there regarding why. I do have the facts from a expert source. It's simply a matter of cost, these displays are too costly to maintain the profit margin the manufacturers are looking for.

Not sure this makes sense. They could charge a little more and people would still buy who care. Especially if they marketed them. They never seemed to do a good job at that aspect. They should have explained on the web site why these screens are so much better. Kind of lame really!

#27 Post by **archer6** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:30 pm

WPWoodJr wrote:Not sure this makes sense. They could charge a little more and people would still buy who care.

I agree, this makes no sense, however it's not Lenovo that's choosing to stop offering these. It's the flat panel display makers. Hopefully that clarifies things for you.

Cheers...

Ragtopgeek · #28 Post by **Ragtopgeek** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:58 pm

archer6 wrote:
I use a 15" T series SXGA+ IPS every day in my work. I'm in front of the computer for 8-10 hours and I have found a very noticeable difference and improvement since I first began using the IPS just over year ago. I would highly suggest this display.

Just curious, reading this literally implies that that over the course of the year, the display has actually improved...could you please elaborate how the display would improve or change over time, for the better. Or have your eyes (and appreciation) changed?

Thanks, Ragtopgeek

#29 Post by **archer6** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:43 am

Ragtopgeek wrote:
archer6 wrote:I use a 15" T series SXGA+ IPS every day in my work. I'm in front of the computer for 8-10 hours and I have found a very noticeable difference and improvement since I first began using the IPS just over year ago.
Just curious, reading this literally implies that that over the course of the year, the display has actually improved...could you please elaborate how the display would improve or change over time, for the better. Or have your eyes (and appreciation) changed?

In retrospect I could have written this statement differently. I am not saying the display has improved (that would be impossible), what I am saying is that using an IPS display for a year vs non-IPS over the same period of time, I've noticed no eyestrain with the IPS, vs noticeable eyestrain with the non-IPS display, due soley to the amount of time I spend using it, and it's lack of clarity, illumination, and defninition as compared to IPS. This is NOT to suggest that the non-IPS is a poor or substandard display. Quite the contrary they are excellent displays that I have on 98% of my other ThinkPads, the are simply a generation behind. Sorry for any confusion.

#30 Post by **archer6** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:46 am

archer6 wrote:
Ragtopgeek wrote: Just curious, reading this literally implies that that over the course of the year, the display has actually improved...could you please elaborate how the display would improve or change over time, for the better. Or have your eyes (and appreciation) changed?
In retrospect I could have written this statement differently. I am not saying the display has improved (that would be impossible), what I am saying is that using an IPS display for a year vs non-IPS over the same period of time, I've noticed no eyestrain with the IPS, vs noticeable eyestrain with the non-IPS display, due soley to the amount of time I spend using it, and it's lack of clarity, illumination, and defninition as compared to IPS. This is NOT to suggest that the non-IPS is a poor or substandard display. Quite the contrary they are excellent displays that I have on 98% of my other ThinkPads, the are simply a generation behind. Fortunately my eyes remain 20/20.....
Sorry for any confusion.

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