FlexView SXGA+IPS?

Message

vkyr · #31 Post by **vkyr** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:47 pm

As I can see here in this thread, there are a lot of speculations why we possibly won't see much *notebook TFT IPS-panels* in a near future.

I second the opinion, that this has mostly to do with the industries demand to be cost effective and to produce more quantities in panels, that are actually demanded in higher quantities by the world-wide OEM/ODM notebook manufactors. Thus third-party notebook TFT panel suppliers nowadays do concentrate more on the production of mass glare widescreen panels than on ...let's say matte IPS notebook panels.

Also a lot of people seem to oversee, that nowadays there is a big boom in producing masses of higher quality TV LCD panels, which is actually more lucrative and profitable for many third-party LCD panel suppliers.

Maybe it's sad to say, but all in all the industries future analysis forecasts them that the consumer flat panel TV business will grow much more over the next years, than high end notebook panels. Additionally, notebook manufactors themselves are always looking to make more profit and here production costly notebook panels often don't fit into their calculations, since nowadays they don't/can't sell so much expensive notebooks. - The later is due to the consumer behavior and quick living market.

Related to Thinkpads and their IPS/FlexView TFT panel suppliers (namely IDTech, LG-Philips and Boe-Hydis), we can see that some of the suppliers seem to don't offer notebook IPS panels anymore. BTW, Boe-Hydis is also well known to be the strongest supplier for most better quality 12" IPS TabletPC TFT panels for the industry and thus specialized on those digitizer based panels.

Finally let me say related to the MVA (Multi-Domain Vertical Alignment)/PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) vs. TN (Twisted-Nematic) vs. IPS (In-Plane-Switching-) panels etc. dispute here, that the advantages of MVA/PVA-displays are their higher contrast compared to TN-displays. Another advantage is, that MVA/PVA-displays can show up more colors than usual TN-displays. Further do MVA/PVA-displays offer higher viewing angles than TN-displays. The disadvantage of MVA/PVA-displays is, that these are much slower in reaction and thus mostly not so much usable for gamers.

IPS (In-Plane-Switching-) panels do offer the overall best viewing angle contrasts from all panel types. Meaning that they offer the most stable contrasts and colorings from nearly all horizontal and vertical viewing positions. However, IPS panels are also slower than plain TN panels and usually, due to their technical assembling, also slightly dimmer than TN panels.

However, in the past years there has been made technically much advanced progress in the areas of all of the above mentioned panel technologies, so that the gaps between those competing panel technologies have got somehow smaller. This can be seen at least in certain panel domains, like the flat LCD monitor field.

okashira · #32 Post by **okashira** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:24 pm

PVA, MVA, IPS... they all blow away TN panels.. just give me somthing.

everyone single one of lenovos laptops are god [censored] TN screen ATM, except the x60 tablet!

okashira · #33 Post by **okashira** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:29 pm

[quote="vkyr"]
IPS (In-Plane-Switching-) panels do offer the overall best viewing angle contrasts from all panel types. Meaning that they offer the most stable contrasts and colorings from nearly all horizontal and vertical viewing positions. However, IPS panels are also slower than plain TN panels and usually, due to their technical assembling, also slightly dimmer than TN panels.
/[quote]

My desktop S-IPS is noticibly faster (less smearing/ghosting) then a 22" 5ms ACER TN that I had. and mine's not even marketd as fast.

The NEC 20WMGX2 (S-IPS) is one of (if not) the fastest LCD on the market, beating out "2ms" TN panels.

My point is that IPS tech has got TN beat in the responsse category now, too.

to put things in perspective our thinkpad flexviews/tns are 20-30ms.

vkyr · #34 Post by **vkyr** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:02 am

PVA, MVA and IPS panels without a doubt do offer a much contrast richer and more viewing angle stable viewing quality than TN panels. I said before that these initially were a little bit behind in offering faster reponse times, especially in changes from black to white and different grey scale colors. - But I also said, that nowadays the panel technologies have been much advanced in all directions, so that the gaps between them (especially in the LCD monitor field domain) got smaller.

You mentioned NEC LCD monitors, so I quote a NEC technical paper here titled "Fine on the outside, not so fine on the inside?", which nearly tells the same:

...
Features and peculiarities of modern LCDs

Fine on the outside, not so fine on the inside?

In the meantime many LCDs are fighting to gain favour with the buyer. The models in the different price categories hardly differ from one another on the outside. Only the inner workings decide whether the device is a success or failure.

At the most fundamental level, LCD displays differ from one another through the technologies used. DSTN models are only still to be found in notebooks. Most stand-alone displays are fitted with TFTs. They have good contrast, satisfactory brightness and a wide viewing angle. The picture refresh rate is also usually fast enough to be able to play back films.

Super TFTs are a new development on an IPS basis and can be viewed from very wide angles of over 60 degrees in all directions. But S-TFTs are slower than TFTs and can therefore only be used to a limited extent for demanding moving images. This gap is filled by the new MVA displays. They are fast enough for video and provide a consistently bright picture, full of contrast, without colour distortion, even from the side. Factors which speak out against the MVA display are the high price and its weakness in reproducing deep black elements of the picture, which could be a handicap in the electronic image processing or prepress fields.
...
...
and so on
...

Puppy · #35 Post by **Puppy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:15 am

Don't forget overdrive technology used by most TN panels to improve response time. The same technology is used for IPS panels as well. For example my NEC 2090UXi monitor (A-TW-IPS LG.Philips panel) can turn it on/off. The effect is very noticeable when slowly scrolling black text on white background.

#36 Post by **archer6** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:08 pm

vkyr wrote:Maybe it's sad to say, but all in all the industries future analysis forecasts them that the consumer flat panel TV business will grow much more over the next years, than high end notebook panels. Additionally, notebook manufactors themselves are always looking to make more profit and here production costly notebook panels often don't fit into their calculations, since nowadays they don't/can't sell so much expensive notebooks. - The later is due to the consumer behavior and quick living market.

I agree this is a sad, but true trend. Thanks for the great post!

Cheers.....

#37 Post by **archer6** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:10 pm

Puppy wrote:Don't forget overdrive technology used by most TN panels to improve response time. The same technology is used for IPS panels as well. For example my NEC 2090UXi monitor (A-TW-IPS LG.Philips panel) can turn it on/off. The effect is very noticeable when slowly scrolling black text on white background.

This is so true, thanks for the link !

Cheers....

z_24 · #38 Post by **z_24** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:58 pm

Check this out, just out
http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=75

dr_st · #39 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:49 pm

z_24 wrote:Check this out, just out
http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=75

Excellent! Finally an official statement from Lenovo.

The discussion of IPS panels has been going on in several threads lately. I think the new blog warrants its own thread. I hope you don't mind that I start one, z_24.

taob · #40 Post by **taob** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:03 pm

Not the best news, but at least we heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

z_24 · #41 Post by **z_24** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:11 pm

dr_st wrote: The discussion of IPS panels has been going on in several threads lately. I think the new blog warrants its own thread. I hope you don't mind that I start one, z_24.

No, not at all. I wasn't sure where I should put it, so I put it here. Plus I was in a hurry.

okashira · #42 Post by **okashira** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:41 am

The news is not bad. he said they are evaluating screens with PVA and MVA tech. as long as we can get somthing other then TN in the future.

vkyr · #43 Post by **vkyr** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:05 am

Well, I don't know what Thinkpad evangelists are expecting to hear from Lenovo related to maybe future notebook TFT panel supplies, but I believe either way they can't or won't tell you now and yet.

All in all Lenovo, as any other notebook manufactor here too, is dependent on the overall markets LCD panel suppliers, since they (Lenovo) don't build LCD panels by themselves. So they can only supply, what the market always actually can offer in guaranteed quantities to them, in terms of cost effectiveness and thus to resonable prices. - In other words, there aren't actually much notebook IPS panel suppliers left, which offer IPS notebook panels in higher quantities and maybe more importantly for a manufactor, for cost effective prices.

Also when looking over the world wide LCD panel forcasts for the next years, the situation doesn't look much better. The majority of notebook TFT panels will be still produced for the consumer field, namely cheaper mirroring glare type notebook panels for the masses and no spectacular (also much cheaper than IPS panels) matte TFT panels for the common business notebook segment.

However, I still hope that we will also see in the near future some better quality matte notebook TFT panels, even I doubt that these will be then outstanding.

Troels · #44 Post by **Troels** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:02 am

okashira wrote:The news is not bad. he said they are evaluating screens with PVA and MVA tech. as long as we can get somthing other then TN in the future.

They might say that they are evaluating a lot of screens, but what is to evaluate?

Samsung is very keen on PVA. Unfortunately for everyone, their notebook displays are nothing but TN panels (LTN...) LG-philips has nothing better to offer, nor does AU Optronics. IDtech and BOE Hydis are out of business.
Mitsubishi's AngleView is dead.
Companies today choose TN panels for 19" and less because of the costs, and people stil buy them like mad

Puppy · #45 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:25 am

Troels wrote:They might say that they are evaluating a lot of screens, but what is to evaluate?

I understand the point but there is another point of view. They might choose another technology. MVA/PVA is still cheaper than IPS but sufficient (especially S-PVA) for the purpose. Then it is matter of demand and price

Having S-PVA panel would be much "consumer oriented" due excellent constrast ratios (-> watching videos) and better response times (-> multimedia) than IPS. The color representation could be similar since those notebook IPS panels were 6-bit only. It is still much better option than any TN.

What I fear is that the standard 4:3 aspect ratio will disappear.

Troels wrote:Companies today choose TN panels for 19" and less because of the costs, and people stil buy them like mad

This is what I don't understand. On the other hand I notice that most shops and specifications mentions various (usually useless

) parameters except the panel technology.

Troels · #46 Post by **Troels** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:59 am

I see what you're saying, and i agree.
But finding PVA, MVA is near impossible today with 14 and 15 inch LCDs. It was once possible, but even Samsung does not sell any 15 inch screens with PVA, not even a 17". They might still have a few 19" products. Same applies to the other manufacturers.

So that is what i meant by - "what is there to evaluate", when the technology isn't transferred into products that is even remotely suitable for laptops?

(Let alone (W)SXGA+ and (W)UXGA...)

The demand isn't there in the large game. Not before Dell, Acer or HP/Compal wants something of a higher quality.

The introduction of IPS in the old days was only possible (as i see it) because:
1) IBM co-founded the DBU (Display Business Unit = IDTech) with Chi Mei, so they had a large amount of money.
2) Developement of LCDs for the private market was costy, so very few adopted LCDs, because anyone could see that most CRTs were surperior.

Puppy · #47 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:07 am

Isn't possible that Lenovo will repeat 1) ?

Troels · #48 Post by **Troels** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:37 am

Chi Mei abandoned the IDtech project/division i believe (they sold all their stock), and some fabs and equipment were sold to Sony in 2005. I think i read somewhere that they are manufacturing displays for handheld devices there now.

So i'm not sure ... it would be nice if IDtech would even reply to my email about this.
Lenovo might do something similar, yes - i hope they will, but the competition is much stronger than in 1998 with DBU, so finding a manufacturer willing to do this might be hard.

Although, these are all guesses.

dr_st · #49 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:55 pm

Puppy wrote:Having S-PVA panel would be much "consumer oriented" due excellent constrast ratios (-> watching videos) and better response times (-> multimedia) than IPS. The color representation could be similar since those notebook IPS panels were 6-bit only. It is still much better option than any TN.

True, better than any TN. However, just like the IPS notebook panels were only IPS (not S-IPS), I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing S-PVA as a replacement. Regular PVA is more likely. And those have terrible response times.

vkyr · #50 Post by **vkyr** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:31 pm

Troels wrote:Chi Mei abandoned the IDtech project/division i believe (they sold all their stock), and some fabs and equipment were sold to Sony in 2005...

That's correct, IDTech was a former times merger between Chi Mei and IBM Japan and in the meantime their best fabs have been taken over by Sony.

...Lenovo might do something similar, yes - i hope they will, but the competition is much stronger than in 1998 with DBU, so finding a manufacturer willing to do this might be hard.
Although, these are all guesses.

I don't believe so, first of all Lenovo is not IBM and further doesn't do the sort of research in the LCD display field as IBM once did (...for example with the 9.2 million pixels displays etc.). Instead I think Lenovo will assemble the same sort of panels, as other notebook manufactors too and thus in generally, what's available on the notebook panel supplier market. Also when taking a look over the notebook panel suppliers (LG-Philips, Samsung, AUO, Quanta, Chi Mei, Sharp, TMD, Boe-Hydis, Chungwa Picture Tubes, HannStar, Hitachi etc.) product lines, we will just find a few notebook panel models which meet higher first class specs. And those panels which seem to be of higher quality are mostly very expensive.

So the majority of notebook panels will still be TN panels, maybe with some advanced color filters, polarizers and hopefully anti-glare coatings. I also doubt that Lenovo will be very soon switching over to offer some Thinkpads with LED based backlight technology.

Bing0 · #51 Post by **Bing0** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:35 pm

So Lenovo's SXGA+ is the same as flexview and IPS?

sb37 · #52 Post by **sb37** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:26 am

No, Bing0. SXGA refers to a resolution of 1400x1050, and WSXGA is a similar resolution in widescreen format. IPS, also known as flexview, is a display technology. Flexview screens have recently been available in SXGA, and prebuilt machines might still be available if you ask.

Bing0 · #53 Post by **Bing0** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:33 am

yes I know what sxga and wsxga are.
does the plus (+) in sxga+ denote flexview?

ptantra · #54 Post by **ptantra** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:21 am

Bing0 wrote:yes I know what sxga and wsxga are.
does the plus (+) in sxga+ denote flexview?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Video_Standards.svg,

SXGA = 1280x1024
SXGA+ = 1400x1050

Therefore, the "+" doesn't denote flexview at all. The 14" SXGA+ are not flexview. I *think* some of the 15" SXGA+ were flexview, but given all the shortages (and talks of discontinuance), they may not be anymore.

Bing0 · #55 Post by **Bing0** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:25 am

This sux,
If this is true, I will probably be keeping my A31P.

vkyr · #56 Post by **vkyr** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:25 am

@Bing0

Take a look at the table and click on the display comparison image shown on the site here...

http://www.notebookcheck.com/DPI-Feinhe ... 845.0.html

...in order to see the differences in notebook display resolutions, dpi, etc.

Related to...

> So Lenovo's SXGA+ is the same as flexview and IPS?

SXGA+, UXGA, and so on are just abbreviations for specific display resolutions, FlexView is just IBMs made-up word for a specific TFT panel type, namely an IPS notebook TFT panel.

FlexView IPS panel were only avaiable for certain Thinkpad models with a 15" 4:3 aspect ratio display in resolutions of SXGA+ and UXGA. The only other IPS panels offered by Thinkpads, beside the 15" TFT panels, were those of the 12" TabletPCs.

dr_st · #57 Post by **dr_st** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:11 am

Bing0 wrote:This sux,
If this is true, I will probably be keeping my A31P.

If you want to buy a Thinkpad _NOW_, I'm pretty sure that if you look hard enough, you can still find a T60/p with SXGA+ Flexview available somewhere, and maybe, maybe even a UXGA Flexview. Resellers often have stock of computers purchased several months ago.

If you contact Lenovo and go high enough in their chain of command (explain to them that you are a reseller, etc), it's possible that they will offer you a model with Flexview, even though they no longer offer it for everyone. I'm sure they still have some available, they just cannot advertise them because they will not be able to deliver in mass quantities.

jlingo · #58 Post by **jlingo** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:30 am

Hi I'm looking for a new T60 Thinkpad
and I'm looking at the spec below, but it doesn't say IPS. are Flexview and IPS the same thing?

Display/Monitor
External display supported Yes
Simultaneous external display Yes
Screen Type Description TFT FlexView display with wide viewing angle and high density
Viewable Image Size (Diagonal) Inches 15.0

dr_st · #59 Post by **dr_st** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:40 am

Yes. The goal is wide viewing angle. The technology is IPS. The marketing name is Flexview.

Puppy · #60 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:45 am

The goal is also contrast and backlight uniformity.

FlexView SXGA+IPS?

Who is online