Disk Fragmentation

Message

Seleur · #1 Post by **Seleur** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:31 am

Hi all. I was wondering what the normal rate of fragmentation on a drive is? I defragmented my brand new T60 for the first time yesterday after being told that my new computer was "heavily fragmented", and directly after de-fragging Diskeeper informed me that I now had 0% fragmentation. However, several hours later I analyzed it again and the program gave me a message that "67% of the drive is available for defragmentation." Does that mean that the drive was 67% fragmented already? In those few hours I had installed a few new software programs (part of a new printer package) - could that have been responsible for so much fragmentation so quickly? I feel like I've never on previous computers had to de-frag everytime I installed something new.

Thanks

rps944 · #2 Post by **rps944** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:57 am

IMHO, DiskKeeper tends to have somewhat ambiguous messages that imply there are problems. Basically, and I'm sure others more knowledgable in this area will reply, you need to be concerned primarily with how many (%) files are fragmented in the used disk space. How the fragmentation impacts your performance varies based on your HD configuration, type, speed, etc.

Fragmentation occurs for many reasons, but the main culprits are installing/uninstalling software - particulalry larger apps.

Seleur · #3 Post by **Seleur** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:04 pm

Thank you for the response. Is the percentage of fragmented files equivalent to the number in the message that says "67% of the drive is available for defragmentation" or does that mean something else? If it's 67% that seems very high, having gone from 0 just a few hours before (I installed about 450 mb of printer software & photo applications). Thanks for the continued help, all.

Superego · #4 Post by **Superego** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:51 pm

This might help (from diskeepers's website):

"The ''Free Space Available for Defragmentation'' message refers to the free space area outside of the 12.5% set aside for expansion of the MFT. For instance, if the ''Free Space Available for Defragmentation'' figure is 17%, the total free space would be around 29.5%. The MFT area is indicated by the green and white striped area in the graphic display."

So, no it doesn't refer to the number of fragmented files or the percentage of fragmentation. It's just deducting the MFT in it's report. Like rps944 said, you'll to look at a) # of frag'd files or b) % of frag.

#5 Post by **Kyocera** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:53 pm

450MB of printer software and photo's is a good amount. It may be that diskeeper uses that 67% as some sort of reference point when "any" fragmentation is needed. I guess you can't use the windows defragger since you have diskeeper enabled if I remember correctly, but it would be interesting to defrag with the windows tool and then see wha t diskeeper has to say about it.

EDIT: superego I was typing my response while you were typing yours

, I was going to recommend checking the diskeeper site for the faq's too, but have been slammed in the past

rps944 · #6 Post by **rps944** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:39 pm

Are any of the 3rd part disk utilities, like DiskKeeper, considered "better" at actually performing defrag? Or is defrag essentially the same process regardless? I'm not talking about various features, like configuring automatic defrag schedules, rather, are there different processes used to defrag? You're talking to guy who's been using the MS disk utilities since pre-Windows DOS but if there's something better (likely), I'm not opposed to spending a few $$ to reap the benefits. Thanks!
Bob

#7 Post by **jdhurst** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:45 pm

The only one I know that stands head and shoulders above the rest is Perfect Disk 8. Blazingly fast and very low resource. I defrag my T41 daily at 11:00am and never know. It just happens. I have used Diskeeper, but I like PD8 better. YMMV. .... JD Hurst

Superego · #8 Post by **Superego** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:57 pm

I'll throw in my 2 cents for O&O Defrag ($49.95). I really like that I can choose from 5 options for how to defrag my HD:

1) Space - consolidates free hard disk space
2) Stealth - Uses minimal system resources and can even be used as screensaver
3) Name
4) Access
5) Modified

Options 3,4, & 5 all defrag and then completely reorganize your HD based on name, date of last access, or date last modified. Defragmentation of the MFT is another plus.

Having never used Perfect Disk I can't comment on it. But judging by the number of people on this board that use it and their comments I'd say you can't go wrong with it either. Whatever you end up with, you'll laugh at MS defrag afterward.

#9 Post by **jdhurst** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:46 pm

Superego wrote:<snip> Whatever you end up with, you'll laugh at MS defrag afterward.

Never has a hammer hit a nail more squarely

JDH

#10 Post by **gator** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:53 pm

Another vote for PerfectDisk 8 - amazing product, runs with little overhead and does a much better job than the (nagging) free Diskkeeper Lite that is bundled with thinkpads. I use it on both my X31 and T60.

Seleur · #11 Post by **Seleur** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Thank you guys. This forum -- and all of you -- continue to be an amazing resource for someone who doesn't know quite as much about computers as I would like.

I am relieved to see that 67% does not refer to the total amount of fragmentation. I also had the idea of comparing Diskeeper's analysis with MS Defrag, but the latter does appear to be disabled. For the moment, I'm at 0% Volume Fragmentation with 136 fragmented files and 308 total excess fragments, which I assume is pretty good.

For my own reference, if over the next day or so Diskeeper reports a high fragmentation again, should I be concerned that there is something wrong with the system, or should I just keep defragging every time? With every other system I've ever owned (using MS Defrag) the analysis would only suggest Defragging once a month, even despite program installations, so maybe Diskeeper is just a better program? Does quick fragmentation indicate a problem with the computer?

Thanks!

rps944 · #12 Post by **rps944** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:03 pm

Thanks for the suggestions - I'll look into them. And, I too, would like to thank everyone in these forums for the valuable input!
Bob

Seleur · #13 Post by **Seleur** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:32 pm

Just FYI folks, I ran an "experiment" by pulling up my old Thinkpad that does not have Diskeeper installed. The Windows Defrag program that comes preinstalled said the drive did not need to be defragmented. However, I then installed Diskeeper which reported a "heavily fragmented" drive. So clearly there are some differences between the standards of the two programs.

Scratch · #14 Post by **Scratch** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:07 am

IMO, after working with several different products over time, the retail version of Diskeeper is an excellent product and does exactly what it aims to do. I find its scheduling and utilities easy to work with and don't even notice its overhead factor when running in smart mode.

Defragging a disk involves, among other things, the copying and reassembly of file fragments into contiguous structures in an open portion of HDD space on the same partition that is being dfrg'd. These new contiguous files are built end to end (contiguous) to each other and after they're validated the original space is cleared. Obviously to defrag and build a string of contiguous content requires considerable "Free Space Available for Defragmentation" to operate efficiently and effectively, particularly when dealing with large file types i.e. photos, music, video, 3d design, etc. I have found 25-30% minimum Free Space to be a reasonable guideline.

After large contiguous blocks are assembled Diskeeper then "compacts" the swiss cheese area of the partition to convert all of the holes created by removal of fragments into more contiguous space available to be refilled with the new non-fragmented files and round and round it goes.

Unfilled gaps in contiguous file data are not detrimental to performance of the disk in read/write operations. Fragments are, as the heads have to travel all over creation to recover and assemble the file for use on demand.

Maintenance and prevention of fragmentation of the paging file is also one of the key performance enhancing functions of Diskeeper as a fragged PF can bring your system to a crawl when working with large apps & databases that push to swap.

Running Diskeeper in Smart Mode with the proper options set will keep your system disk(s) optimized for performance and will kick in to run when it detects the need and opportunity. You also have the option of just scheduling runs when you know you'll be away from the system for 20 mins. or so.

BTW this is all based on a disk that runs 4 partitions with the OS isolated from certain applications, temp files, and general frequent r/w activity. Applications are split off to another and $home is pushed to yet another partition which also holds Temp/Tmp. The 4th is the IBM service preload.

This config prevents the constant writing of temp files , FireFox or other browser temps, cache, etc and general user data to the OS/System partition and the partition containing user apps which greatly limits any fragmentation that occurs. These I defrag on a schedule 1/day. The data area is on smart schedule and this handles the fragmentation from constant r/w activity well.

YMMV. Hope this helps.

Seleur · #15 Post by **Seleur** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:54 am

Thanks Scratch, an insightful post. Do you happen to know if Diskeeper Lite will perform the functions you described, particularly defragging the paging file?

Best,
Chris

Scratch · #16 Post by **Scratch** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:07 pm

Chris,

Since I have the full version installed the included Lite version option is no longer visible to me though I can take a look on another machine at work the next time I'm in the office.

To the best of my recollection the Lite version is limited to the manual operations with no scheduling or smart functions. It also lacks the settings that help to protect specific data types from fragging...i.e. paging file, MFT, etc.

The full version of DK Workstation is about $49 and when you have an opportunity it is money well spent.

Seleur · #17 Post by **Seleur** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:39 pm

Thanks, Scratch, I will make an investment in the Diskeeper Full version soon. In the meantime, another quick question: When you say the Lite version does not allow you to target specific areas like paging files, MFT, etc., do you know if a general defrag by Diskeeper Lite defrags those files? Or does it not touch them at all?

Thanks again

Scratch · #18 Post by **Scratch** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:43 pm

A general defrag doesn't touch those areas. They have to be set to initiate on the next reboot.

They run once at startup in numbered stages that can be viewed in the console real time. If there is no menu for boot time options than they can't be done in the Lite version

wpwood3 · #19 Post by **wpwood3** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:24 am

I run PD8 on all my Windows computers...laptops, desktops and servers. It's a great product and uses very little resources.

Go to their website and download the trial version and give it a spin for a week or so.

#20 Post by **gator** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:47 am

PD 8 was running a promotion a while bacl - they were selling for $20 instead of the usual $40. At this price it was a steal ... I got one license for my X31. I suggest you check the website ...

flake · #21 Post by **flake** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:21 am

If you're going to buy a full version, do yourself a favor and don't give your $$$ to diskeeper. Perfect Disk is a far better product and doesn't cost any more. They have a try before you buy so you can compare.

How fragmented a drive gets is really a function of how you use the machine. If you're constantly deleting files and creating new ones, the disk will get fragmented quickly. This will also happen if you are regularly growing files larger It is also a function of how full the disk is. 25% free space has already mentioned as a good rule of thumb and I agree that this is good advice.

FS performance in general has an inverse exponential relationship to disk usage (agravated by many small files vs. fewer larger ones). Above 75% usage you're rapidly getting into the vertical portion of the curve.

I've had some unfortunate experiences with several hundred GB volumes with only a few tens of MB free. It could take literally minutes to move/copy small files around.

#22 Post by **jdhurst** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:31 am

I just set up a new Lenovo ThinkCentre desktop. It came with Diskeeper Lite. Like most Lite versions, it is much wanting in features, so at least pay for something that is not Lite.
... JD Hurst

effone · #23 Post by **effone** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:06 am

we use our systems for photo/video editing and they tend to get fragmented in a blink. I think its well worth it to spend on the latest edition of Diskeeper. really wonderful utility, in my personal opinion nothing to beat the Invisitasking and realtime defrag features. I expected the other operations to conflict with these, but surprisingly, it turns itself off, on the basis of prioroties. Got it installed over a small network without even a tiny hitch.

nandaiyo · #24 Post by **nandaiyo** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:27 pm

Just wanted to cast another vote for PerfectDisk 8.

I've been using the latest version of Diskeeper on my T60 running Vista, and no matter how many times I ran it, my disk map still had tons of gaps and fragmented folders in it, even though the program said that it was completed with the defrag with no errors. I tried to run the boot-time defragger, but all it does is reboot -> diskeeper msg pops up saying it's defragging for 10 seconds -> suddenly boots into Vista with no defrag. Quite useless.

Frustrated, I searched the web for any answers why boot-time defrag wasn't working, with no results.

so I tried PerfectDisk8, and on the first run it successfully did a boot-time defrag, and when I did a full system defrag it actually packs the files together as I expect a defrag program should. Took a bit longer than Diskeeper to defrag, but then again, I don't think Diskeeper was doing much of anything while it was running.

(edit: I was working with the 30-day trial of Diskeeper Professional. Maybe some of the features I was trying to run were disabled because it was a trial? Anyway, the comparable 30-day trial of PerfectDisk8 works great so I will be purchasing that instead)

Scratch · #25 Post by **Scratch** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:46 pm

Did you set the boot time options required to initiate folder operations and then restart the machine? DK does its folder, PF and MFT work under the boot time option only.

I loaded the test version of PD because of the claims herein of functional superiority, but saw little difference in the final outcome after a weeks' maintenance. It seems to me to come down to user preference and confidence. We've been running Workstation and Server versions of Diskeeper here since the product became available and with all of that licensing in place and on annual maintenance PD would have to prove itself to be worthy of the substantial cost of change. I didn't see that in my brief evaluation, but YMMV.

At any rate, regardless of product, users need to have something beyond manual Lite versions performing this function.

Disk Fragmentation

Disk Fragmentation

Fragmentation

As long as we're on the topic...

Thanks for the input

Another vote for PerfectDisk 8.0

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