T61 news on NotebookReview - the end of T series ... ?

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Puppy · #1 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:53 am

T series is over ? http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3607

- The 15" T61 will only be available in widescreen format
- The FlexView screen option will not be available

Why should I buy ThinkPad ?

dr_st · #2 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:21 am

The writing was on the wall for some time. LCD panel manufacturers just don't want to deal with IPS anymore. Sad to see such a great technology disappear from the laptop sector. Especially, since it's also not available and probably will never be available at the low range of desktop LCD screen sizes (17"-19").

Other than the disappearance of IPS, which has little if at all to do with Lenovo, nothing bad is happening to the T-series.

Puppy · #3 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:04 am

- no longer 15" 1400x1050
- no longer 15" 1600x1200

15" widescreen is no option since it is too large, that's where Z series could serve its purpose. 14" WSXGA+ might be considered if the quality of display would be much better than current 14" SXGA+ (at least comparable with TN panels used by HP or Sony top models) and non-glossy of course. As for IPS I still don't get it, the technology is here, no other investment is needed to produce it. People would buy it as an option for additional money.

I'm not convinced that the LCD manufacturers are to blame. I can imagine a manager at Lenovo has decided that it is too expensive so they will stop using it. People will buy crap if there is no other option

I think Lenovo is going the wrong direction with T series leaving the business market. They should rather merge new T with Z.

dr_st · #4 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:52 am

I could believe that Lenovo is to blame, if I knew of any LCD manufacturers actively producing IPS panels, or any other laptop manufacturer using them. As it stands, Thinkpad T really has been IPS's last stand in laptops. I can totally imagine that LG (the only ones currently supplying IPS panels) decided that having one customer (Lenovo) which only uses them on select models doesn't justify the cost of production.

Puppy · #5 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:04 am

Isn't it rather consequence than cause ? No one use our notebook IPS panels -> we stop produce them. Moreover it is still unclear what happened to IDTech.

In any case I'm wondering who has currently the best SXGA+ TN panel. It is definitely not Lenovo (14" in T are horrible - even worse than Acer or Fujitsu). It is funny to see that 15" SXGA+ R60 is becoming the top business Lenovo notebook model. Isn't time to cut it ?

Dimitri_P · #6 Post by **Dimitri_P** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:36 pm

Look slik ethey will have 14" T60 with 4:3 ratio.
What it means is that they are still using same motherboards [physical size] as in T60 nowadays.

What I will do, I'll just get the T61p motherboard and put it into my T60p 15" IPS one

get the full system upgrade with the best screen

as long as they keep same motherboards [ till T70...

]

I'll be safe

- so should you

Proteus · #7 Post by **Proteus** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:59 pm

Thinkpad is the ONLY 15" laptop currently not crippled by low-res displays.

No other laptop, for the price offers a WSXGA+ 15" screen. No other consumer laptop will offer a WUXGA 15" screen when the T61 releases. And none of them will have both that, and the build quality and Vista driver stability of a Thinkpad.

Apple Macbook pro can't come close, its crippled by a low res 15" screen. The HP and Dell workstation models can match the T60/T61p on screen resolution and graphics, but not on build quality, and weight...or price.

I've priced out the Dell workstation models, and they're at least $1000 more than an equivalent T60P (at least with the shareholder/employee discount)

3nigma · #8 Post by **3nigma** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:14 pm

3nigma wrote:The sales rep that I spoke with Mohammad was able to tell me WSXGA+, but I'm not sure if he knows for sure.

Sales rep Chris and rep Tyrone both were most unhelpful in answering my probing questions, hehe.

-3nigma

Anyone notice that the article was just a summary of all of our combined journalistic efforts? LoL.

At least he credits his sources.

-3nigma

pianowizard · #9 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:20 pm

Proteus wrote:The HP and Dell workstation models can match the T60/T61p on screen resolution and graphics, but not on build quality, and weight...or price.

Excellent point. My co-worker just ordered a 15.4" WSXGA+ T60 for under $1,300 including tax. Dell fans should stop claiming that Thinkpads are overpriced!

Puppy · #10 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:24 pm

pianowizard wrote:Dell fans should stop claiming that Thinkpads are overpriced!

ThinkPads are going to be cheap

On the other hand I don't have to stick with IBM/Lenovo anymore. The unique quality and technology has gone and they still don't offer "ThinkPad Protection" warranty over here while HP/Dell/Acer do.

To be constructive I made a "poll" in Pictures forum for those who can post detailed pictures of new T screens.

BTW Who makes the Tablet PC panel which is supposed to be IPS as well ?

dr_st · #11 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:07 am

Puppy wrote:BTW Who makes the Tablet PC panel which is supposed to be IPS as well ?

BOE-Hydis.

dr_st · #12 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:12 am

In any case, I think that this IPS issue really warrants an explanation from Lenovo. Is there any chance we can ask David Hill (or anyone else) to bring this up at LenovoBlogs.com?

Puppy · #13 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:39 am

dr_st wrote:BOE-Hydis.

Actually the panel in X Tablet is very likely Hydis proprietary AFFS technology.

dr_st wrote:In any case, I think that this IPS issue really warrants an explanation from Lenovo. Is there any chance we can ask David Hill (or anyone else) to bring this up at LenovoBlogs.com?

I have already tried here. Especially LG is pushing thier relatively cheap IPS panels to LCD monitors (LG 2000-C model) so it is not true that IPS means high price only. My guess is that the issue was simply a marketing decision like "people will buy crap if there is no other option".

anthean · #14 Post by **anthean** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:40 am

Puppy wrote:Especially LG is pushing thier relatively cheap IPS panels to LCD monitors (LG 2000-C model) so it is not true that IPS means high price only.

Good point. It is clearly not true that the cheapest technology wins. Rather, the better technology wins when it becomes cheap. A good case in point: no one makes dual scan LCDs anymore, even though they were cheaper than TFT.

Puppy · #15 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:51 am

The most expensive x-IPS panels for top professional LCD monitors are still made by Hitachi. LG.Philips focuses on low-end and midrange market. Even low-end IPS panel is still better than any "wide-viewing-angle" TN. I don't insist on IPS for notebook, just want anything but horrible TN.

okashira · #16 Post by **okashira** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:39 pm

I see no reason to buy a thinkpad now. The reason I've been looking is for the good 15" flexview screens. If Im going to get a cheap, crap screen then I'll just buy a cheap, crap laptop.

what kind of panel will the 15.4 WUXGA be?

I know some of the Sonys must be non-TN screens, seen them in person. That and a dell model where you may get a PVA type screen. Guess I'll start looking there.

pianowizard · #17 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:53 pm

okashira wrote:what kind of panel will the 15.4 WUXGA be?

I don't think it has been confirmed that the T61 will include a 15.4" WUXGA option. But let's say there will be one, and let's say it's the same screen as the Z61p's 15.4" WUXGA screen, then it won't be Flexview.

Puppy · #18 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:34 pm

okashira wrote:If Im going to get a cheap, crap screen then I'll just buy a cheap, crap laptop.

That's my point.

pianowizard wrote:But let's say there will be one, and let's say it's the same screen as the Z61p's 15.4" WUXGA screen, then it won't be Flexview.

Is the Z61p WUXGA still available ?

pianowizard · #19 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:21 pm

Puppy wrote:Is the Z61p WUXGA still available ?

I know for sure that Lenovo US doesn't sell the Z61p any more. I don't know about other countries.

dr_st · #20 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:47 pm

Puppy wrote:Actually the panel in X Tablet is very likely Hydis proprietary AFFS technology

.AFFS is a spinoff of IPS. I don't know what the exact improvements are, though. BOE-Hydis list all their panels as AFFS, including the now out-of-stock 15" UXGA.

dr_st wrote:Especially LG is pushing thier relatively cheap IPS panels to LCD monitors (LG 2000-C model) so it is not true that IPS means high price only.

It's still more expensive than the TN crap. And you're still talking about a 20" monitor here. This does not invalidate my previous assumption, that panel manufacturers don't want to bother with IPS in the small sizes (which means <20" and the entire laptop sector) these days.

Puppy · #21 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:18 pm

dr_st wrote:It's still more expensive than the TN crap.

ThinkPad is still more expensive than a crappy notebook, isn't it ? There is 15" SXGA+ FlexView panel available from Lenovo as a FRU part for 460 EUR. I guess the real price is somewhere between 25% .. 50% of it. Crappy TN panel could be for 100 EUR or less. So we have about 100 ... 200 EUR difference. Compare it with end price of ThinkPad.

dr_st wrote:And you're still talking about a 20" monitor here.

Which is becoming mainstream in LCD monitors segment.

WPWoodJr · #22 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:04 pm

dr_st wrote:In any case, I think that this IPS issue really warrants an explanation from Lenovo. Is there any chance we can ask David Hill (or anyone else) to bring this up at LenovoBlogs.com?

I already did here:
http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox ... mment-4216

Brad · #23 Post by **Brad** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:15 am

This is what I am asking. It seems like ThinkPads are losing their dominance. At least in my mind anyway. Long live the last greatest ThinkPad!

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=40199

WPWoodJr · #24 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:30 am

Wouldn't it be cool if Lenovo came out with LED-based displays like Apple plans to with the MacBook Pro:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0702leddisplay.html

"In addition to their energy saving properties, LED backlights are also brighter and display superior color and consistency compared to CCFL backlights. In addition, the LED backlights are even thinner than today's already-thin CCFL backlights, which wil enable Apple to trim the width of its laptops even further."

Samsung already has a 15.4" one available:
http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?m ... _name=news

LED displays would likely blow IPS displays out of the water!

pianowizard · #25 Post by **pianowizard** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:26 am

WPWoodJr wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if Lenovo came out with LED-based displays like Apple plans to with the MacBook Pro:

I've asked this question six times but no one ever answered it: Isn't the Ultralight display for the X60s LED-based?

okashira · #26 Post by **okashira** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:46 am

WPWoodJr wrote: LED displays would likely blow IPS displays out of the water!

That's like saying "Chevy's new engine will blow all other cars out of the water!"

The backlight is just what lights the LCD display from behind so you can see it. if an LED backlight still backlights a TN screen it will still be a TN screen.

There are a number of LED backlight LCD's already on the market.. Sony has a couple of laptops, Toshiba's r400 Tablet, NEC has a couple of high end desktops LCDS (note these are S-IPS)
The difference is pretty subtle; most noticibly they are brighter, thinner with better whites. But LED backlights do nothing to correct the problems of TN displays.

okashira · #27 Post by **okashira** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:06 am

Wow, take a look at that Samsung 15.4" It's just another cheap 6-bit TN display... with 45% NTSC color gamut.. horrible! much rather have a CCFL backlight.

vkyr · #28 Post by **vkyr** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:04 pm

okashira wrote:
WPWoodJr wrote: LED displays would likely blow IPS displays out of the water!
...
...
The backlight is just what lights the LCD display from behind so you can see it. if an LED backlight still backlights a TN screen it will still be a TN screen.
...
But LED backlights do nothing to correct the problems of TN displays.

That's correct!

A backlight, as it's name implies, just lights the specific sort of LCD panel. The advantage of nowadays LED backlights is that these consume less power, have a longer durability and when placed in a right manner together with light channels can more evenly distribute the light to a TFT panel. Another point is, that modern backlight LEDs can be used to offer a bigger gammut of the color spectrum. - However, LCD panels driven by LED backlights are still much more expensive for manufactors (and thus finally for the end consumers) than the older style long time used CCFL backlights.

And of course the quality of the different LCD panel types (TN, VA, IPS and their much enhanced counterparts) don't get better just of using LED based backlights. In order to improve a sort of panel type (let's say a poor TN panel) a bunch of fine adjusted substrate/surface coatings and filters is needed instead here. Just the luminance given from backlights itself doesn't offer here better viewing angles and contrasts.

WPWoodJr · #29 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:09 pm

okashira wrote: The difference is pretty subtle; most noticibly they are brighter, thinner with better whites. But LED backlights do nothing to correct the problems of TN displays.

Not true wrt color - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD where it says:

It is not uncommon for displays with CCFL (Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamps) based lighting to range from 40% to 76% of the NTSC color gamut, whereas displays utilizing white LED backlights may extend past 100% of the NTSC color gamut - a difference quite perceivable by the human eye.

Puppy · #30 Post by **Puppy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:42 am

Good news. Matt Kohut from Lenovo has promised to write about IPS panels issue on his blog http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox ... mment-4635

T61 news on NotebookReview - the end of T series ... ?

T61 news on NotebookReview - the end of T series ... ?

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