Quality difference in pre-built and CTO

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axiom · #1 Post by **axiom** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:50 pm

After observing several compliments and complaints people have made on their T60 quality, I somehow come into a thought that explains this situation. As the title suggests, I am guessing the pre-built models are bettery built than the CTO ones.

Here is my speculation.
pre-built models are put together in Lenovo's ShenZhen factory in China which was formerly owned by IBM. Everything going out from that factory is still quality controlled under IBM's standard.

The CTO models are also manufactured in the same factory but they are customized/configured in HK Kowloon Bay by opening it, doing certain assembly/disassembly... etc then put back together, which is what I think making the problems some people are experiencing here, such as the palm rest not putting back properly, things not aligned, broken teeth on the palm rest ... etc.

This is just what I think. More information is always welcome!

dexta · #2 Post by **dexta** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:16 pm

I hope not. Getting a CTO tomorrow and hopefully it is in good shape.

idxman01 · #3 Post by **idxman01** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:33 pm

dexta wrote:I hope not. Getting a CTO tomorrow and hopefully it is in good shape.

Ditto here. But I wont be able to play with it until next Sunday.

pianowizard · #4 Post by **pianowizard** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:04 pm

It does seem plausible that CTO models are manufactured more hastily, because Lenovo would probably want to get them shipped out as quickly as possible. But that's just my speculation.

Ken Fox · #5 Post by **Ken Fox** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:25 am

There are different sorts of CTO models; some are user configured and others are not. For example, some of the "educational" models available privately for students and faculty are listed as "based on xxxx-CTO" even though they may have a unique model number.

Also, the idea that they are "hastily built" seems contradicted by the fact that people complain all the time in these forums that they have been forced to wait nearly forever for the delivery of their custom machines.

pianowizard · #6 Post by **pianowizard** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:32 am

Ken Fox wrote:Also, the idea that they are "hastily built" seems contradicted by the fact that people complain all the time in these forums that they have been forced to wait nearly forever for the delivery of their custom machines.

Most of the wait is for the backordered parts to arrive. As soon as they arrive, Lenovo tries to assemble them as quickly as possible to minimize further delay.

DavidR · #7 Post by **DavidR** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:16 am

My CTO came when promised and the build quality was outstanding. Good luck on yours. Another way of looking at this is the CTO require a higher skill level person to assembly and may not suffer from the production line mentality.

dexta · #8 Post by **dexta** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:09 pm

Well if you think about it logically, the custom options are:
- memory, you only need to unscrew a couple of screws and pop the keyboard out
- hard drive, unscrew on screw and you are done
- finger print reader, need to dismantle the entire chasis, including the palm rest
- CPU, need to dismantle the entire chasis, including the palmrest to get under the fan

Wonder if there is any correlation based on that.

idxman01 · #9 Post by **idxman01** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:27 pm

Would be interesting if we could get some reliable poll data on this from forum members...

Although we might end up with the consensus that it's the luck of the draw with which factory worker makes the changes.

(UPS and my neighbor say my packages are in!! t-6 and counting..)

-r

dexta · #10 Post by **dexta** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:52 pm

Just got my T60p, build quality is good.

Hate the keyboard though, feels horrible compared to my T42, and what the hell is a windows key doing on the keyboard now?

shalliday · #11 Post by **shalliday** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:02 pm

Received my T60p CTO about a month ago and so far I am very unhappy wiith this purchase. I plan on contacting Lenovo tomorrow and making them fully aware of the situation. Guess I will find out first hand how good the tech support and warranty is.

axiom · #12 Post by **axiom** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:04 pm

shalliday wrote:Received my T60p CTO about a month ago and so far I am very unhappy wiith this purchase. I plan on contacting Lenovo tomorrow and making them fully aware of the situation. Guess I will find out first hand how good the tech support and warranty is.

Would you mind elaborating what you are unhappy about?

axiom · #13 Post by **axiom** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:07 pm

dexta wrote:Well if you think about it logically, the custom options are:
- memory, you only need to unscrew a couple of screws and pop the keyboard out
- hard drive, unscrew on screw and you are done
- finger print reader, need to dismantle the entire chasis, including the palm rest
- CPU, need to dismantle the entire chasis, including the palmrest to get under the fan

Wonder if there is any correlation based on that.

As far as I know, those customizations are done in HK.

Ragtopgeek · #14 Post by **Ragtopgeek** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:24 pm

shalliday wrote:Received my T60p CTO about a month ago and so far I am very unhappy wiith this purchase.

Just curious as to the specifics of what's wrong--last week I received the exact same CTO and am very happy: runs awesome, great screen and build quality. Incidentally, I ordered on Wednesday March 28 and it was delivered to my door exactly a week later on Wedneday April 4.

R.

idxman01 · #15 Post by **idxman01** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:33 pm

axiom wrote:Would you mind elaborating what you are unhappy about?

From his previous posts I'm thinking it's the recent hot thread regarding view problems with the LCD. Although there was also mention of reduced sound quality and not being satisfied with the keyboard. (although with the qualifier that he's a 2-finger typist and his 10-finger typist friend thought the X31's keys were too close together.)

Nevertheless would be interesting to hear this perspective as well. I also look forwarding to reviewing mine with the contrast of coming from a toshiba and not having such similar machines to compare to.

-r

#16 Post by **BillMorrow** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:51 am

i made this a sticky upon request by the OP..
leave it up for a week or two..
then re-evaluate the sticky..

#17 Post by **JaneL** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:03 am

Frankly, I don't see any value in making this a sticky.

JHEM · #18 Post by **JHEM** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:33 am

nonny wrote:Frankly, I don't see any value in making this a sticky.

Ditto.

James

pianowizard · #19 Post by **pianowizard** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:25 am

Bill is too nice.

#20 Post by **Kyocera** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:06 pm

When i first read this post it seemed way to subjective to have value.

nxman · #21 Post by **nxman** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:13 am

I have 3 CTO T60's 15 + 15.4 + 14 all are great machines.

shalliday · #22 Post by **shalliday** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:31 pm

Ragtopgeek wrote:
shalliday wrote:Received my T60p CTO about a month ago and so far I am very unhappy with this purchase.
Just curious as to the specifics of what's wrong--last week I received the exact same CTO and am very happy: runs awesome, great screen and build quality. Incidentally, I ordered on Wednesday March 28 and it was delivered to my door exactly a week later on Wednesday April 4.

R.

Sorry for not posting back sooner. Regarding your question, I have had issues with my new T60p from the time I received it. For the most part all have now been resolved thanks to the help of this forum and Lenovo technical support.

Client Security and Finger Print Reader Issues - Resolved.
- Solution was to remove IBM Client Security and upgrade to latest bios (Lenovo Tech Support)
Wireless connectivity and IBM Access issues - Resolved.
- Solution was to remove IBM Access and upgrade to latest bios (Lenovo Tech Support)
Thinkvantage Password Manager Issues - Resolved.
- Solution was to remove Password Manager (Lenovo Tech Support)
Complete System Lockout at Startup.
- This issue was caused by me changing system values in an effort to fix client security, fingerprint and wireless problems. Ended up inadvertently locking myself out and then with Lenovo Tech support managed to make safe mode access inaccessible.
- Solution was for Lenovo to ship me rescue and recovery cds and use them to regain system access. (Lenovo Tech Support)

Now all that remains outstanding is by far the biggest and most troublesome of all. Issues with the LG SXGA+ IPS LCD Panel make the T60p virtually unusable since the screen is for the most part unreadable when viewing black text, especially on lighter background colors. This is by far the biggest disappointment I have ever experienced with any Thinkpad computer. This may be hard for some of you to believe but when I try to use the T60 I can only do so for very short periods of time and I do mean short. I find my vision quickly becomes blurry and obscured within a very short period of time. My eyeballs feel like they are straining out of their sockets trying to read the text. I also get very nauseous and frequent headaches. These symptoms occurred every time I tried to use the laptop and I do mean every time, regardless of whether it was when I first woke up feeling rested and relaxed or regardless of room lighting conditions. All of the many recommended tweaks failed to improve the situation. It is enough to drive you insane because when you first look at the screen it does indeed appear to be fine. It is only after you try using it, does the problem become apparent. I ended up placing the T60 to one side and reverting back to using the X31. Amazing. No ill feeling symptoms when using the X31. I also asked my wife give up her X31 and give the T60 a try. She too found it unusable and within 20 minutes, insisted I give her back the X31. It was sure a relief to find others reporting similar issues with the LG-Philips panels on these forums.

Yesterday I once again contacted Lenovo regarding the LG-Phillips panel issues. They have scheduled an IBM/Lenovo tech to provide on-site support later today and possibly replace the LCD panel if necessary. The bad news is that the replacement LCD panel is by the same manufacturer as the one shipped with my T60p. For anyone following threads on this forum relating to 15" SXGA+ flexview screen issues, I bet you can guess who the manufacturer is. Well, lucky me.

It's LG-Phillips and the replacement panel part number is 13N7078 (FRU042T0325).

This troubled me so much that 4:00am this morning, I once again contacted Lenovo Support and expressed my concerns about receiving the same LG-Phillips 13N7078 (FRU042T0325) as a replacement. Am now waiting for a return phone call from their Parts depot.

This whole entire experience is very troubling and very different from any I have experienced in the past with IBM Thinkpads. When I order a new Thinkpad I expect high quality in terms of parts, technology, construction, reliability, support, and yes silly me, I expect it to work pretty much straight out of the box. These are the qualities that have made the Thinkpad brand "the preferred choice" for business laptops period. It is why I have always insisted on purchasing IBM Thinkpads and have always been more than willing to pay the premium price. In the past, IBM and IBM Thinkpads have always met or exceeded my expectations and I have never had reason to regret or second guess my purchasing decision. That is not to say there has not been issues with previous Thinkpads because there has. No one bats a 1000, including IBM. Issues I have had in the past were usually isolated to an individual Thinkpad and with very little effort, easily resolved. On occasion where it affected more than one, IBM always took quick action to get it resolved.

The key and most disturbing difference I see now is the latter. More clearly stated, Lenovo's failure to take any action much less quick, to resolve what has clearly been identified as a major problem with these 15" LG-Phillips LCD panels. I say this because of the many posts I have read on this forum reporting this issue as well as my recent conversations yesterday with Lenovo/IBM tech support staff. I am now convinced issues with the 15" LG-Phillips panel is not isolated to just my T60. I am equally convinced Lenovo has been fully aware of this situation for quite some time and also decided to not take appropriate action to adequately resolve this issue.

What I consider appropriate action includes replacing the severely flawed LG-Phillips LCD panels with either a BOE Hydis 13N7196 or 13N7076 panel or with a panel of equal or better quality from LG-Phillips or another manufacturer. Now with that said, if the LG-Phillips 13N7078 panel has been improved to eliminate the "sparkle" effect issues then that too would be acceptable, however there is no indication from Lenovo that this is indeed the case.

Sending out the same 13N7078 LG-Phillips panel (FRU042T0325) as a replacement is not what I or many others would consider an adequate and appropriate solution. Far too many if these panels, if not all, suffer in varying degrees from the same flawed "sparkle" effect that is best described in the following threads on this forum:

flexview and eye strain

Flexview really worth it?

These are just two of the threads on this topic. There are many more that can be found by doing a simple forums search.

To me how this issue has been handled or more accurately, not handled by Lenovo, is in itself the most telling and disturbing difference between IBM Thinkpads of old and the new Lenovo Thinkpad going forward.

I think my comments to Lenovo's survey regarding my recent T60p purchase may best sum up my buying experience to date:

After many years of being a loyal Thinkpad fan and devote owner, I am sad to say this T60p will most likely be my last Thinkpad purchase, both for myself and for the I.T. organizations I manage. Over the course of my career I have always insisted on using IBM thinkpads as the standard within each of the IT departments I have managed. Thinkpads have always set the standard for business laptops but unfortunately considering the latest T Series offering from Lenovo and the issues surrounding them, this no longer seems to be the case. Biggest issue being with the Flexview screens. Even though I purchased the top of the line Flexview screen this is the very first time in my entire career where I actually have difficulty reading a thinkpad screen. Actually I would go so far as to say that the screen itself is the worst I have ever used with regard to reading basic black text especially on lighter background colors. Suffice to say I am a little more than simply disappointed with the T Series screen offering. This in itself would be enough to sour anyone from purchasing future thinkpads but combine that with ongoing issues with wireless connectivity and fingerprint reader/secure login access, one really has to wonder.

As of yet I have not contacted Lenovo Tech Support directly regarding these issues but plan on doing so later today. It will be interesting to see if there is any real value in purchasing Lenovo Thinkpad warranty and on site support.

Sorry for the long rant but this Flexview screen issue has really soured my opinion of Lenovo Thinkpads and any likelihood of future purchases. Will now wait to see how the Tech Support deals with this. On the positive side, IBM/Lenovo Tech Support staff has been very friendly, helpful and great to deal with so far. Of course over the years, I have come to expect nothing less from IBM's Tech Support team. They are the best. I just hope none of you are having to sit there and read this post using one these flawed, faulty, defective (call it what you want) LG-Phillips 13N7078/FRU042T0325 panels.

The overall build quality of my T60p is fine and would say it is as good as any of the Thinkpads I have received in the past.

shalliday · #23 Post by **shalliday** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:08 pm

Well maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Just got off the phone with Lenovo Tech Support and they agreed to replace the T60 SXGA+ (13N7078) screen with a new BOE-Hydis UXGA FFS (13N7076) panel. In order to complete the swap, they told me additional parts will be required, so if anyone else is considering this swap, here's the required parts list:

1 - BOE-Hydis 13N7076 LCD panel - in stock.
1 - UXGA LCD Cable Assembly 91P6858 - in stock.
1 - SXGA+/UXGA 15" Inverter Card 42T0079 - now on order and expected in on Monday.

Once they have the invertor in stock, Lenovo on-site support will contact me to schedule on-site installation. Once again, the IBM/Lenovo Tech Support group were great to deal with. Very friendly, helpful and eager to work with me to get my LCD issue resolved.

Now I need to find out more about the BOE-Hydis 13N7076 LCD panel in so much as screen quality and reliability. For those of you who own or are familiar with this panel could you please tell me:

A) Is it a better quality panel than the LG-Phillips 13N7078? Based on my horrid experience with the 13N7078 I am assuming it is but is my assumption correct?
B) Are there any issues with the BOE-Hydis LCD panel?
C) Is the BOE-Hydis 13N7076 LCD panel a good choice or should I hold out and push for the BOE-Hydis 13N7194 panel which is currently out of stock?

Have searched the forums for answers. While I did find a lot of information, I am having some difficulty putting it all together. Right now I am more dazed and confused than knowledgeable and informed.

Thank you to everyone and this forum for being such a great help. It is very much appreciated!

-------------------------

Sorry if my posts are hi-jacking this thread. Perhaps a moderator can move them to a separate or more appropriate thread.

Quality difference in pre-built and CTO

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