LCDs on T60/T60p - types, availability and other discussions

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Troels · #111 Post by **Troels** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:01 am

All those who ordered a 2623-DDU on the Lenovo outlet in April of '07 got an IDtech LCD (including me). Also, seems as if people has gotten IDtech LCDs earlier on, perhaps when BOE-Hydis could not keep up with demand.

NOS = New Old Stock, they're from late 2005/early 2006. Production stopped around that point also.

No, it's not listed there for some reason, the FRU is 42T0345

I'm not sure about the LG Philips, but I recall that user WPWoodJr has a T60 or T60p with an LG-Philips SXGA+ flexview.

[censored], it would be totally crazy if those 13N7194 LCDs were available somewhere.

kamaleon · #112 Post by **kamaleon** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:39 am

Ok!

Yes, the SXGA+ flexview one was made by LG-Philips. This is the one that some users reported to have the infamous sparkle effect.

Do you know anything more about the IDtech one? Does it have anything to do with the older T4X IDTech ones (I mean is it the same panel with a different part number, adapted to the T60s)? Do you know how it compares with the BOE-Hydris? Do you know if it's more "modern" than the BOE-Hydris? Any clue on response times? I'm not a gamer but I watch a lot of satellite TV on my displays and I'm starting to believe I see a lot of ghosting on my PVA samsung syncmaster display which has a 25ms response time, so I'm wondering if a flexview would be any good for that.

Sorry bout all these questions

kamaleon · #113 Post by **kamaleon** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:47 am

Troels, nevermind about some of the questions I've just asked as I've just found this:

Troels wrote:The IDTech panels used in these last T60P UXGAs, were originally converted T43p screens, converted by Lenovo with a different cable.
The panels used in these machine has been from the absolutely last batch of UXGA Flexview - they're from January 2006.

The other questions, on the other hand, are still valid!

Troels · #114 Post by **Troels** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:38 am

Uhm well, the panel itself is the same, but since that the screens are determined by the EEPROM (EDID) on T6x series, the EEPROM on the IDtechs in T60ps were reprogrammed. The EDID contains information about the display resolution and certain timings. The T4x determined the resolution simply by different cables where some wires were cut to differ between UXGA and SXGA+.

The BOE-Hydis seems more modern because it features their patented AFFS technology with a 500:1 contrast ratio. The Idtech has 400:1. Response time is still equal to that of the IDtech.

However, people say that the colors of the BOE-Hydis is better than that of the IDtech. This is something which is objectively inccorect. They are very much alike, judging from the CIE measurements posted in the data sheets:

http://www.beck-oled-lcd-tft-display.de ... X1-101.pdf

and

http://www.idtech.co.jp/en/products/pdf ... U3-L06.pdf

Neither is close to covering the sRGB color space, which is why the most interesting thing would be the 13N7194.

If you see ghosting with the PVA, you'll see ghosting with all IPS/flexviews too. The IPS technology is pretty old - 10 years or so, which is relatively long compared to S-IPS or S-PVA which is most commonly used besides TN today.

Troels · #115 Post by **Troels** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:40 am

Completely unrelated to my reply above:

If BOE-Hydis was left alone and had enough money the roadmap containing a 14.1" AFFS SXGA+ 200 nits LCD could have been reality - see http://visiondisplay.co.kr/sub01/BOEHydis.pdf page 11.

kamaleon · #116 Post by **kamaleon** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:11 pm

quality post Troels. I'm impressed, you answered exactly all of my questions.

Actually, I'm not sure yet if the ghosting / motion blurr I experience is related to panel response times or codecs being used , so i'll have to give it a try.

btw, where does the term "flexview" come from? Is it something branded by IBM then Lenovo? Where there ever any other laptops / displays from other brands using the flexview term?

Troels · #117 Post by **Troels** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:44 pm

Some are really sensitive to unequal rise+fall response times, so that the symmetrical 30+30 ms of the flexview might seem less irritating.
Not sure if PVA is symmetrical.
Flexview is just a brand, which specify a wide viewing angle, high density display - which means IPS or the later AFFS.
No other used the flexview term, as they are not allowed to i think - but Asus had a few batches back in the day with IPS 15" SXGA+ screens, it was back at the time when displays weren't called VibrantView, Xblack, TrueView or whatever useless word for "glossy display" they want to use.

Only some batches of the Asus A6N or A6V or something similar had this, and it was just a draw of luck if one recieved one or not - point is; manufacturers other than IBM/Lenovo didn't do anything to advertise the screen being different from another.

kamaleon · #118 Post by **kamaleon** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:45 pm

Interesting stuff, Troels. I believe it was actually some models of the V6 series from asus but I thought those were VA rather than IPS - but I might very well be wrong.

Peak2Peak · #119 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Do the UXGA IPS flexview panels (13N7076 & the hard to find / non-existent 13N7194) or other ThinkPad LCD's have firmware that the BIOS checks for compatibility? (like the WLAN/WWAN internal PCI-e cards - 1802 & 1804 error's) - therefore making them only to be supplied / available from Lenovo? (as opposed to the LCD manufacturer themselves)

If the BIOS does check the firmware for compatibility can the EEPROM (EDID) be re-prog?

kamaleon · #120 Post by **kamaleon** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:53 am

Well, I believe some people have installed LCDs (like the 15" QXGA or the 14" UXGA) that have not been branded by Lenovo so I suppose the answer to your question is no?

Troels · #121 Post by **Troels** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:09 pm

Yes, on T6x/R6x the screen specs are contained and read from the EDID (128 byte long) stored on a 24C02 256 byte EEPROM on the screen.
The EEPROM is programmable without any mods because WP / Write Protect is pulled low.
It is programmed via an I2C bus, which in functionality is extremely simple.

By using PonyProg2000 and a Parallel to I2C convertor (DIY) you can read and re-program the EEPROM.
The EEPROM does contain manufacturer specific code unfortunately. By copying the data from an official LCD from Lenovo to a random pin-compatible screen makes it compatible, if they are the same resolution.
If it's incompatible or contain no or missing code you'll get a vertical red-white-blue pattern when booting the machine.

A software like http://www.tucows.com/preview/329441 is AFAIK the only tool to aid in the development of EDIDs since modifying binary files manually is as good as impossible, unless you know what to change.
The Phoenix EDID tool is quite buggy though and is not supported any longer it seems.

The T4x series relies on the cable to determine if XGA, SXGA+, UXGA or QXGA resolutions should be outputted. It's a case of cutting through some wires here and there - it's possible to create an SXGA+ cable from a UXGA cable by drilling a 1 mm hole for example.

Personally i really HATE Lenovo for doing this - of course they could use the EDID to determine the correct resolution and thus only manufacture one cable, but i hate them for containing specific manufacturer information (one line up to 13 characters) that is completely bogus and one can't tell what it means other then that the BIOS check for that string during power up.
As all the screens used complies with the SPWG regulatives there's no other reason to implement manufacturer specific code other than to piss off customers and earn money.

Peak2Peak · #122 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:17 pm

Troels: Many, Many thanks for your post - I found it very informative and easy to digest

. Judging by the content it seems that you have done this procedure before(?) I downloaded the Phoenix EDID designer 1.3 tool to extract the EDID registry details - this gave me the monitor details. (Is it this the info that the BIOS looks for?)

I have never have played with EEPROM's before so am not clued up as to what is exactly involved to read/copy & re-prog them and also what hardware is needed. Can you produce a step by step "idiots Guide" of exactly how to succeed in blowing the EEPROM specifically for this topic

.

Is the EEPROM on the LCD panel pcb removable ie in an IC DIL-socket? or is it directly soldered? (Also what package type is it - DIP, SO8, TSSOP8...etc)

Also as I have a T60p, there are no legacy port(s) like a Serial or Parallel, is there a way round this? (USB to Parallel cable?)

If the procedure is fairly straight forward and the hardware involved can be purchased for a modest sum, I would certainly purchase a Raw-OEM panel to try it out as I occasionally like a challenge!

Many thanks once again

kamaleon · #123 Post by **kamaleon** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:01 am

Peak2Peak wrote:Also as I have a T60p, there are no legacy port(s) like a Serial or Parallel, is there a way round this? (USB to Parallel cable?)

Ok, so my last post was not helpful, I hope this one is:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/UltraBay_ ... rt_Adapter

Peak2Peak · #124 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:21 am

I have had a very brief look at PonyProg this morning - Spotted the Easy I²C Bus interface Schematic circuit diagram at the end of the page. I am able to construct this simple circuit on strip-board as I have most of the compoents lying around. I see that there is a Pin jumper in the circuit diagram and assume that if it is left open circuit it will enable or disable the EEPROM into either Read or write mode (?)

Also do one of the pins on the Parallel port have a regulated ref +5V? If so it would make life a little more easy as the circuit would be self powered or does the EEPROM require a large current to program it (therefore a regulated external power supply will be needed?)

With regards to the non-existent Parallel port on the T60p - would a USB to parallel cable suffice? (I knew I should have kept that T43!)

As said in my last post a step by step guide of how to program the EEPROM (via PonyProg) would be great

I wonder if there are forum members who can supply pre-programmed EEPROM's for the LCD panels? (fancy the job Troels? )

Before I take on any project, I am a stickler for the the absolute maximum amount of background info available, so for now I am in research mode - only then will I proceed (if I consider I am up to it!)

Peak2Peak · #125 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:31 am

Hey kamaleon - Apologies for not seeing your last post! - But a big Thankyou for pointing out here, this great little device

- I have checked out the UK price, which is about £60 inc VAT (P&P extra

).

kamaleon · #126 Post by **kamaleon** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:36 am

No problem mate. Funnily enough, I found out about that the day before yesterday. You paid close attention to the part in which it stated native support, right?

Peak2Peak · #127 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:56 am

kamaleon wrote:You paid close attention to the part in which it stated native support, right?

Ahh-OK - So do you think it will support what is required here - Program an EEPROM via PonyProg and the associated electronic's hardware?

Troels · #128 Post by **Troels** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:04 pm

Yes i did play around with this alot - and yes, i use the exact same I2C interface as posted on the Ponyprog homepage.
The BC series NPNs may be hard to find in the US - ANY general purpose, small signal NPN will do the trick.

Idtech has published the datasheet for all of their screens. They write that the Vcc for the EEPROM is +3.3V. According to manufacturers of the 24C0X series, everything from 2.7 to 5V is accepted.

You don't need to bother with the TEST connection at all since you can't connect it either way. It is pulled to ground on the PCB, so it is always in write-enable mode.

See: http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7117 ... plegy8.jpg

As you see the three address bus pins, A0 A1 and A2 (2^3 = 8 bits) are pulled to ground, along with the TEST pin (pin 7)

The only pins you can "talk by" are SDA and SCL and supply the EEPROM with a Vcc and GND.
You'd need a JAE FI-X30M connector i think in order to easier to connect the wires to the connector - i.e. get a cheap, broken 30 pin cable from an IBM or Lenovo laptop and solder on the wires where they should be.
There are also two SCL and SDA test points on the PCB which might be used also, but you'll need a way of supplying the power also.

As i don't know what else is connected to the same Vcc connection, i wouldn't risk feeding anything else than 3.3V. So a small 3.3V voltage reulator and an old transformer - from e.g. an old portable cd player works well since they are usually nominated at 4.5 to 5V loaded.
It's possible to get 5V from the parallel interface by setting one data port as logical high. It requires a little programming, but i'm not sure how this will work, if Ponyprog overrules the whole parallel port during use by reinitializing it.

Preprogrammed EEPROMS - well, they're hard to mount since they are SOIC and mounted on the backside of the PCB facing the back polarizer of the LCD.

If you need an UXGA edid from a T60p, feel free to pm.

Peak2Peak · #129 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm

Troels: Many thanks for your reply and the excellent jpeg with the marked solder pads.

Is it safe to say then, that you can program the EEPROM insitu (safely) on the LCD panel pcb without interference from surrounding components as well as not damaging them? Agree the SO8 and TSSOP8 IC packages are not easy to work with, especially if they face the back of the polarizer.

I have found a UK based specialist retailer: Quaser Electronics who supplies a EEPROM Programmer for the 24Cxx I2C bus & SPI 93 Series - it is available in kit form or as a fully assembled PCB - Check out the user manual for a comprehensive description, Circuit diagram and down-loadable software etc.

Kamaleon posted a link for a Lenovo Serial / Paralell adapter that fits into the T60's ultrabay bay, do you think it will work as well as a dedicated parallel port like on the T43's.

Is PonyProg easy and straight-forward to use for what we are trying to achieve? - as I'm new to this game.

Troels · #130 Post by **Troels** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

Well, as long as the circuit is correct, it will work, and then it is completely safe.
ALWAYS be sure to make a backup of what was originally in the LCD EEPROM before over-writing it with something else. That's the most important thing really.

I have a bugged, bad, screwed up lcd which i used to test on - which of course was much easier since it is of no value if something goes wrong.

The Quaser electronics board does look like an alright solution - but it will not work with the ponyprog programmer, due to the fact that the lines are inverted. ponyprog can take into account for the inversion, but i'm still not 100% certain it will work.
The supplied program only works from clean DOS it seems, which could be irritating, since you'll have to reboot if you need to tweak something by the phoenix editor.

I don't know about the ultrabay serial/parallel bay, but i'd assume it would work - especially since thinkwiki says they are native

PonyProg is actually very easy to use - then again it does not have the many features of software which is supported by a real burner - like a labtool. But it's completely free.

When PonyProg2000 is installed, launch it - and

1) Setup -> Interface Setup... -> Choose Parallel, EasyI2C I/O, LPT1
2) In the main window, click the first drop down box, select I2C Bus 8bit eeprom. In the second drop-down box, select 2402 or 24XX Auto if you want.

3) Setup -> Calibration

4) Backup the original EDID: Connect the connector to the LCD and connect the 3.3V power supply. Select the first (leftmost) icon second row in the main window of PonyProg2000. The data is loaded from the EEPROM.
Go to File -> Save Device Data As... and select a name (choose .bin extension).

5) To open a new EDID (or any bin) you just click the second icon from the left in the first bar of icons.

6) To write when a bin is open in the window: Click the second icon from the left in the second row of icons.

Peak2Peak · #131 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:43 pm

Many thanks again Troels it now seems much more straight forward with your expert help and advice - If I do decide to proceed I still may need to call on you if I get stuck!

Troels · #132 Post by **Troels** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:47 pm

Of course.. feel free

EDIT:
Always, if possible, try out the screen with the laptop first to see if it should work - it will save you some time.

If the screen is sold as compatible with the T6x it already has the correct EDID details.
On a side note: All the "compatible" cheap screens on ebay are exactly just that - the EDIDs are reprogrammed to make them compatible. Could be from any manufacturer.

Troels · #133 Post by **Troels** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:47 am

Just received official word from the BOE-Hydis sales department.

The sRGB 15" AFFS LCD by the part. no 13N7194 was never put into production!
i.e. no matter what people are trying to sell the screen as - the sRGB variant was never available, so just stop looking already.

I'm still impressed with their speed of replying, and they even excused the waiting time. This was lightning fast compared to many other companies i never heard a word back from, and if i did it took months.

Peak2Peak · #134 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:45 pm

Hi Troels: After my last posting's and your superb expert replies I consider you to be the LCD tech GURU on BOE-hydis panels

- I have seen a fair few BOE-hydis HV150X1-101's for sale and was wondering if they are compatible with the T60's via the EEPROM re-prog mentioned in previous posting(s).

Is it the BIOS whitelist that looks for the EDID panel info or something else? - I was thinking if it is the BIOS whitelist then maybe someone somehow might be able to get round the BIOS - like the great work forum member: Zender has done with the 1802 / 1804 errors

Troels · #135 Post by **Troels** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:50 pm

Hello Peak2Peak

Well physically they should display the same picture, but the -101 won't work in a T60 no matter what we do... it does not have an onboard EEPROM to contain EDID,
with other words according to the data sheet:
http://www.beck-oled-lcd-tft-display.de ... X1-101.pdf

pins 4-7 are stated as not connected, so there is nothing to write to and nothing to read from, so my GUESS is that you'll just get a scrambled image on a T60p because it can't find the EDID and thus the BIOS rejects the screen.

The EDID on t60p should contain what looks as like a scrambled "manufacturer specified string" which the EDID must contain to make it work.

It would be truely wonderful if Zender can do something about this, this way QXGA panels can work in the T60s too. The modified EDIDs on the 51nb forums doesn't work, or the BIOS has been updated since this hack, to stop the screen from working.

Peak2Peak · #136 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:28 pm

Ahh OK - NO EEPROM - shame!

OK here's another thought if you were able to pre-program a 24Cxx EEPROM with the T60's EDID, would it be possible retro fit it to the actual LCD ribbon cable - providing there was enough room within the LCD assembly and also if you could ID which track's on the ribbon cable to break-into to connect to.

Troels · #137 Post by **Troels** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:18 pm

Yes, no... i'm not sure if it's possible.
The reason for this is that pin 5 is a proprieatry/unknown connector which isn't used when programming the EEPROM or reading it.
But i don't know if the T60 bios is connected with pin 5 and reads tries to read or write at this pin.

On the T4x 15" UXGA cable there a few milimeters of visible solderable traces available just below the LCD connector (on the part that goes into the LCD). I think it is the same for the T60 cable.
I soldered four wires onto an old T42p cable manually to be able to reprogram LCDs of various types, so connecting an EEPROM to it instead should be possible, but they're not easy to work with due to the small size and pin grid/pitch of 1.2 mm.

So something like this will make it work... Again, apart from the uncertainty of pin 5 of the connector.
Refer to:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7117 ... plegy8.jpg

The EEPROM contains 8 pins.
Connect Pin 1-2-3-4 to GND (use shield on the connector for GND)
Connect Pin 5 to connector pin 7
Connect pin 6 to connector pin 6
Connect pin 7 to GND (so that it is not write protected)
Connect pin 8 to connector pin 4

It seems as if pin 5 of the EEPROM is decoupled to GND by a SMD capacitor (and a fuse), but i think you can ommit this - but in case the read/write to the eeprom seems unstable (ponyprog reports that the device is not connected or wrong device) add a capacitor of 47 nF or so.

Peak2Peak · #138 Post by **Peak2Peak** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:19 am

Troels - Once again thanks very much for your A1 tech advice (always appreciated

) - This is certainly something worth considering as NOS of the BOE-hydis HV150X1-100 are drying up fast, and possibly the only option left will be to somehow use the next available version - the 101's.

- Of course if somehow BOE-hydis was to start re-manufacturing AFFS panels (under their new owners - Prime View Consortium?) things could possibly be back to "business as Usual" - Someone wake me up from this dream

chazz · #139 Post by **chazz** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:25 pm

This is a very interesting thread..
Hi Troels..Just wondering if Boe Hydis (srgb) 13N7194 was never put into production. How come a seller on ebay has them? ..iam thinking about ordering one 13N7194 and the seller confirmed its a Boe Hydis screen..

Troels · #140 Post by **Troels** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:23 pm

Hi Chazz,

Well, that is what i was told by BOE Hydis.
The seller would need to confirm it is a 13N7194 also, not just "BOE Hydis".
If you google for 13N7194 you'll find many spare parts shops (many identical but under different names) and then there's B2B sites.
I've asked all of them i could, and those who replied tried to sound stupid by not saying what the screen they had for sale was and a few did never reply.

Lot's of the shops list this and the 13N7076 at the same price and at the same stock level....

LCDs on T60/T60p - types, availability and other discussions

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