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LCDs on T60/T60p - types, availability and other discussions

T60/T61 series specific matters only
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Troels
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#121 Post by Troels » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:09 pm

Yes, on T6x/R6x the screen specs are contained and read from the EDID (128 byte long) stored on a 24C02 256 byte EEPROM on the screen.
The EEPROM is programmable without any mods because WP / Write Protect is pulled low.
It is programmed via an I2C bus, which in functionality is extremely simple.

By using PonyProg2000 and a Parallel to I2C convertor (DIY) you can read and re-program the EEPROM.
The EEPROM does contain manufacturer specific code unfortunately. By copying the data from an official LCD from Lenovo to a random pin-compatible screen makes it compatible, if they are the same resolution.
If it's incompatible or contain no or missing code you'll get a vertical red-white-blue pattern when booting the machine.

A software like http://www.tucows.com/preview/329441 is AFAIK the only tool to aid in the development of EDIDs since modifying binary files manually is as good as impossible, unless you know what to change.
The Phoenix EDID tool is quite buggy though and is not supported any longer it seems.

The T4x series relies on the cable to determine if XGA, SXGA+, UXGA or QXGA resolutions should be outputted. It's a case of cutting through some wires here and there - it's possible to create an SXGA+ cable from a UXGA cable by drilling a 1 mm hole for example.

Personally i really HATE Lenovo for doing this - of course they could use the EDID to determine the correct resolution and thus only manufacture one cable, but i hate them for containing specific manufacturer information (one line up to 13 characters) that is completely bogus and one can't tell what it means other then that the BIOS check for that string during power up.
As all the screens used complies with the SPWG regulatives there's no other reason to implement manufacturer specific code other than to piss off customers and earn money. :evil:

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#122 Post by Peak2Peak » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:17 pm

Troels: Many, Many thanks for your post - I found it very informative and easy to digest :D. Judging by the content it seems that you have done this procedure before(?) I downloaded the Phoenix EDID designer 1.3 tool to extract the EDID registry details - this gave me the monitor details. (Is it this the info that the BIOS looks for?)

I have never have played with EEPROM's before so am not clued up as to what is exactly involved to read/copy & re-prog them and also what hardware is needed. Can you produce a step by step "idiots Guide" of exactly how to succeed in blowing the EEPROM specifically for this topic :bow: .

Is the EEPROM on the LCD panel pcb removable ie in an IC DIL-socket? or is it directly soldered? (Also what package type is it - DIP, SO8, TSSOP8...etc)

Also as I have a T60p, there are no legacy port(s) like a Serial or Parallel, is there a way round this? (USB to Parallel cable?)

If the procedure is fairly straight forward and the hardware involved can be purchased for a modest sum, I would certainly purchase a Raw-OEM panel to try it out as I occasionally like a challenge! :)

Many thanks once again :D
Last edited by Peak2Peak on Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#123 Post by kamaleon » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:01 am

Peak2Peak wrote:Also as I have a T60p, there are no legacy port(s) like a Serial or Parallel, is there a way round this? (USB to Parallel cable?)


Ok, so my last post was not helpful, I hope this one is:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/UltraBay_ ... rt_Adapter

;)
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#124 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:21 am

I have had a very brief look at PonyProg this morning - Spotted the Easy I²C Bus interface Schematic circuit diagram at the end of the page. I am able to construct this simple circuit on strip-board as I have most of the compoents lying around. I see that there is a Pin jumper in the circuit diagram and assume that if it is left open circuit it will enable or disable the EEPROM into either Read or write mode (?)

Also do one of the pins on the Parallel port have a regulated ref +5V? If so it would make life a little more easy as the circuit would be self powered or does the EEPROM require a large current to program it (therefore a regulated external power supply will be needed?)

With regards to the non-existent Parallel port on the T60p - would a USB to parallel cable suffice? (I knew I should have kept that T43!)

As said in my last post a step by step guide of how to program the EEPROM (via PonyProg) would be great :D

I wonder if there are forum members who can supply pre-programmed EEPROM's for the LCD panels? (fancy the job Troels? :lol:)

Before I take on any project, I am a stickler for the the absolute maximum amount of background info available, so for now I am in research mode - only then will I proceed (if I consider I am up to it!) :)
Last edited by Peak2Peak on Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#125 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:31 am

Hey kamaleon - Apologies for not seeing your last post! - But a big Thankyou for pointing out here, this great little device :bow: :bow: :bow: - I have checked out the UK price, which is about £60 inc VAT (P&P extra :evil:).
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#126 Post by kamaleon » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:36 am

No problem mate. Funnily enough, I found out about that the day before yesterday. You paid close attention to the part in which it stated native support, right? ;)
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#127 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:56 am

kamaleon wrote:You paid close attention to the part in which it stated native support, right? :wink:
Ahh-OK - So do you think it will support what is required here - Program an EEPROM via PonyProg and the associated electronic's hardware?
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#128 Post by Troels » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:04 pm

Yes i did play around with this alot - and yes, i use the exact same I2C interface as posted on the Ponyprog homepage.
The BC series NPNs may be hard to find in the US - ANY general purpose, small signal NPN will do the trick.

Idtech has published the datasheet for all of their screens. They write that the Vcc for the EEPROM is +3.3V. According to manufacturers of the 24C0X series, everything from 2.7 to 5V is accepted.

You don't need to bother with the TEST connection at all since you can't connect it either way. It is pulled to ground on the PCB, so it is always in write-enable mode.

See: http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7117 ... plegy8.jpg

As you see the three address bus pins, A0 A1 and A2 (2^3 = 8 bits) are pulled to ground, along with the TEST pin (pin 7)

The only pins you can "talk by" are SDA and SCL and supply the EEPROM with a Vcc and GND.
You'd need a JAE FI-X30M connector i think in order to easier to connect the wires to the connector - i.e. get a cheap, broken 30 pin cable from an IBM or Lenovo laptop and solder on the wires where they should be.
There are also two SCL and SDA test points on the PCB which might be used also, but you'll need a way of supplying the power also.

As i don't know what else is connected to the same Vcc connection, i wouldn't risk feeding anything else than 3.3V. So a small 3.3V voltage reulator and an old transformer - from e.g. an old portable cd player works well since they are usually nominated at 4.5 to 5V loaded.
It's possible to get 5V from the parallel interface by setting one data port as logical high. It requires a little programming, but i'm not sure how this will work, if Ponyprog overrules the whole parallel port during use by reinitializing it.

Preprogrammed EEPROMS - well, they're hard to mount since they are SOIC and mounted on the backside of the PCB facing the back polarizer of the LCD. :D
If you need an UXGA edid from a T60p, feel free to pm.

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#129 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm

Troels: Many thanks for your reply and the excellent jpeg with the marked solder pads. :thumbs-UP: Is it safe to say then, that you can program the EEPROM insitu (safely) on the LCD panel pcb without interference from surrounding components as well as not damaging them? Agree the SO8 and TSSOP8 IC packages are not easy to work with, especially if they face the back of the polarizer.

I have found a UK based specialist retailer: Quaser Electronics who supplies a EEPROM Programmer for the 24Cxx I2C bus & SPI 93 Series - it is available in kit form or as a fully assembled PCB - Check out the user manual for a comprehensive description, Circuit diagram and down-loadable software etc.

Kamaleon posted a link for a Lenovo Serial / Paralell adapter that fits into the T60's ultrabay bay, do you think it will work as well as a dedicated parallel port like on the T43's.

Is PonyProg easy and straight-forward to use for what we are trying to achieve? - as I'm new to this game.
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#130 Post by Troels » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

Well, as long as the circuit is correct, it will work, and then it is completely safe.
ALWAYS be sure to make a backup of what was originally in the LCD EEPROM before over-writing it with something else. That's the most important thing really.

I have a bugged, bad, screwed up lcd which i used to test on - which of course was much easier since it is of no value if something goes wrong.

The Quaser electronics board does look like an alright solution - but it will not work with the ponyprog programmer, due to the fact that the lines are inverted. ponyprog can take into account for the inversion, but i'm still not 100% certain it will work.
The supplied program only works from clean DOS it seems, which could be irritating, since you'll have to reboot if you need to tweak something by the phoenix editor.

I don't know about the ultrabay serial/parallel bay, but i'd assume it would work - especially since thinkwiki says they are native :)

PonyProg is actually very easy to use - then again it does not have the many features of software which is supported by a real burner - like a labtool. But it's completely free.

When PonyProg2000 is installed, launch it - and

1) Setup -> Interface Setup... -> Choose Parallel, EasyI2C I/O, LPT1
2) In the main window, click the first drop down box, select I2C Bus 8bit eeprom. In the second drop-down box, select 2402 or 24XX Auto if you want.

3) Setup -> Calibration

4) Backup the original EDID: Connect the connector to the LCD and connect the 3.3V power supply. Select the first (leftmost) icon second row in the main window of PonyProg2000. The data is loaded from the EEPROM.
Go to File -> Save Device Data As... and select a name (choose .bin extension).

5) To open a new EDID (or any bin) you just click the second icon from the left in the first bar of icons.

6) To write when a bin is open in the window: Click the second icon from the left in the second row of icons.

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#131 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:43 pm

Many thanks again Troels it now seems much more straight forward with your expert help and advice - If I do decide to proceed I still may need to call on you if I get stuck! :)
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#132 Post by Troels » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:47 pm

Of course.. feel free :)

EDIT:
Always, if possible, try out the screen with the laptop first to see if it should work - it will save you some time. :)
If the screen is sold as compatible with the T6x it already has the correct EDID details.
On a side note: All the "compatible" cheap screens on ebay are exactly just that - the EDIDs are reprogrammed to make them compatible. Could be from any manufacturer.

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#133 Post by Troels » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:47 am

Just received official word from the BOE-Hydis sales department.

The sRGB 15" AFFS LCD by the part. no 13N7194 was never put into production!
i.e. no matter what people are trying to sell the screen as - the sRGB variant was never available, so just stop looking already.
:(

I'm still impressed with their speed of replying, and they even excused the waiting time. This was lightning fast compared to many other companies i never heard a word back from, and if i did it took months.

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#134 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:45 pm

Hi Troels: After my last posting's and your superb expert replies I consider you to be the LCD tech GURU on BOE-hydis panels :bow: - I have seen a fair few BOE-hydis HV150X1-101's for sale and was wondering if they are compatible with the T60's via the EEPROM re-prog mentioned in previous posting(s).

Is it the BIOS whitelist that looks for the EDID panel info or something else? - I was thinking if it is the BIOS whitelist then maybe someone somehow might be able to get round the BIOS - like the great work forum member: Zender has done with the 1802 / 1804 errors :D
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#135 Post by Troels » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:50 pm

Hello Peak2Peak :)
Well physically they should display the same picture, but the -101 won't work in a T60 no matter what we do... it does not have an onboard EEPROM to contain EDID,
with other words according to the data sheet:
http://www.beck-oled-lcd-tft-display.de ... X1-101.pdf

pins 4-7 are stated as not connected, so there is nothing to write to and nothing to read from, so my GUESS is that you'll just get a scrambled image on a T60p because it can't find the EDID and thus the BIOS rejects the screen. :( :(

The EDID on t60p should contain what looks as like a scrambled "manufacturer specified string" which the EDID must contain to make it work.

It would be truely wonderful if Zender can do something about this, this way QXGA panels can work in the T60s too. The modified EDIDs on the 51nb forums doesn't work, or the BIOS has been updated since this hack, to stop the screen from working.

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#136 Post by Peak2Peak » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:28 pm

Ahh OK - NO EEPROM - shame! :cry:

OK here's another thought if you were able to pre-program a 24Cxx EEPROM with the T60's EDID, would it be possible retro fit it to the actual LCD ribbon cable - providing there was enough room within the LCD assembly and also if you could ID which track's on the ribbon cable to break-into to connect to. :??:
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#137 Post by Troels » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:18 pm

Yes, no... i'm not sure if it's possible.
The reason for this is that pin 5 is a proprieatry/unknown connector which isn't used when programming the EEPROM or reading it.
But i don't know if the T60 bios is connected with pin 5 and reads tries to read or write at this pin.

On the T4x 15" UXGA cable there a few milimeters of visible solderable traces available just below the LCD connector (on the part that goes into the LCD). I think it is the same for the T60 cable.
I soldered four wires onto an old T42p cable manually to be able to reprogram LCDs of various types, so connecting an EEPROM to it instead should be possible, but they're not easy to work with due to the small size and pin grid/pitch of 1.2 mm.

So something like this will make it work... Again, apart from the uncertainty of pin 5 of the connector.
Refer to:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7117 ... plegy8.jpg

The EEPROM contains 8 pins.
Connect Pin 1-2-3-4 to GND (use shield on the connector for GND)
Connect Pin 5 to connector pin 7
Connect pin 6 to connector pin 6
Connect pin 7 to GND (so that it is not write protected)
Connect pin 8 to connector pin 4

It seems as if pin 5 of the EEPROM is decoupled to GND by a SMD capacitor (and a fuse), but i think you can ommit this - but in case the read/write to the eeprom seems unstable (ponyprog reports that the device is not connected or wrong device) add a capacitor of 47 nF or so.
:)

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#138 Post by Peak2Peak » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:19 am

Troels - Once again thanks very much for your A1 tech advice (always appreciated :D ) - This is certainly something worth considering as NOS of the BOE-hydis HV150X1-100 are drying up fast, and possibly the only option left will be to somehow use the next available version - the 101's. :shock: - Of course if somehow BOE-hydis was to start re-manufacturing AFFS panels (under their new owners - Prime View Consortium?) things could possibly be back to "business as Usual" - Someone wake me up from this dream :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#139 Post by chazz » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:25 pm

This is a very interesting thread..
Hi Troels..Just wondering if Boe Hydis (srgb) 13N7194 was never put into production. How come a seller on ebay has them? ..iam thinking about ordering one 13N7194 and the seller confirmed its a Boe Hydis screen..
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#140 Post by Troels » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:23 pm

Hi Chazz,

Well, that is what i was told by BOE Hydis.
The seller would need to confirm it is a 13N7194 also, not just "BOE Hydis".
If you google for 13N7194 you'll find many spare parts shops (many identical but under different names) and then there's B2B sites.
I've asked all of them i could, and those who replied tried to sound stupid by not saying what the screen they had for sale was and a few did never reply. :(
Lot's of the shops list this and the 13N7076 at the same price and at the same stock level....

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#141 Post by chazz » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:02 pm

my brother bought a t60p that came with Boe hydis 13n7076
and i had the opportunity to compare my IDE QXGA, T42P IDE UXGA , t60p IDE UXGA and Boe UXGA side by side...and his Boe Hydis came out on top, color details, brightness and sharpness--all slightly better than the QXGA (second best). On movies..the BH looks alittle better too..maybe due to refresh rate or something like that.
iam assuming SRGB "would be better" than already amazing screen,,
man really tempted to see if its a real 13N7194
this is ssso confusing :wink:
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#142 Post by off1c3r » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:12 am

I was looking to replace my aging t41. I was reading up on the flexview screen.. sounds really cool. I was trying to find a T60 on the lenovo new outlet section.. Most are widescreens (unless I am mistaken flexview was on non wide?) .. I found a few that seemed good but I need some help. Some of the laptops for 'video card' have no info. I guess those do not have discrete graphics?

The only one that lists the graphics card had vista business on it. Was tryin to get xp pro. I just have no clue waht to go with. Once I got my t40 back in 04.. I didn't follow what was new and what technology changed with the T series since then =( I would love some recommendations? If not anything from the depot (if nothing is really great) I was going to go with a ThinkPad T61 8891.
$1,158 T8300 core 2 duo, 2gb ram, 100gb7200rpm, 14.1 SXGA+ TFT.

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#143 Post by Troels » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:53 pm

Chazz, thanks for the points/impressions. When i had the QXGA, my impression was that it wasn't very bright at all compared to the UXGA Idtech, was this also your impression, i mean - much less bright? :)
Maybe i got a dud at that time, who knows.
Boe Hydis has about the same color space and the same response times of 60 ms, so i doubt there would be any real difference, but ok :)

Off1c3r,
Couldn't find any 15.0" (non-WS) T series notebooks on the Lenovo outlet, perhaps i just couldn't find it... it's more or less a mess.
Flexview was only avaliable in 15.0" non-wide in SXGA+ or UXGA.
Humn, i think you should call them and verify about the graphics card, as far as i recall, the flexviews were offered with X1300 discrete and above, but there might be some custom models which has a GMA950 integrated.

Well, a lot has happened since the T41, but it really depends on what you use it for :)

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#144 Post by off1c3r » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:04 pm

Troels wrote:Chazz, thanks for the points/impressions. When i had the QXGA, my impression was that it wasn't very bright at all compared to the UXGA Idtech, was this also your impression, i mean - much less bright? :)
Maybe i got a dud at that time, who knows.
Boe Hydis has about the same color space and the same response times of 60 ms, so i doubt there would be any real difference, but ok :)

Off1c3r,
Couldn't find any 15.0" (non-WS) T series notebooks on the Lenovo outlet, perhaps i just couldn't find it... it's more or less a mess.
Flexview was only avaliable in 15.0" non-wide in SXGA+ or UXGA.
Humn, i think you should call them and verify about the graphics card, as far as i recall, the flexviews were offered with X1300 discrete and above, but there might be some custom models which has a GMA950 integrated.

Well, a lot has happened since the T41, but it really depends on what you use it for :)
Hey, thanks for reply. On the Lenovo outlet, there were about 4-5 T60's with 14 screens. 4 Of them didn't list what video card, and 1 Did, but came with windows vista. I use my laptop for productivity more than anything. Music creation ,video editing, photoshop, etc (That dual core will help me so much) .. but I do play games too.. FPS, RPG etc. Can't work all the time =) .. I'd say 75%-80% productivity, and the rest gaming.

Edit: The reason I say the 14's is because I had the 14s and I Like their size better but if I can't get any Flexview I guess I would go with a 14, but I also thought the flex came with the 14s too. I am just not sure what to get now =/

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#145 Post by chazz » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:54 pm

you are correct the QXGA was slightly "less" bright compared to BH UXGA ..I am really splitting hairs here on the detail, sharpness and colors..its visible but very subtle...both BH and IDE are already very good screens.
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#146 Post by off1c3r » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:44 pm

Theres a 13N7076 on ebay now from a good seller

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZa_zaharovs

there is one more for sale (if its not up it will be)

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#147 Post by yak » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:18 pm

Hi

I'm looking for a cheapest way to upgrade an XGA T60 to SXGA+ and the way described in this thread seems to be the way.

I would like to ask what do you think about the idea I have.

Searching the web reveals that there are EDID programming utilities that can reprogram the EDID EEPROM of the currently connected display. They mostly speak of a standalone monitors but I think it's the same with laptop displays (the same EDID pins are available on the panel connector and SVGA connector).

Since we cannot boot a T60 with a non-lenovo display, the idea is to boot it with an approved one and switch them (carefully) while the laptop is running or in standby mode. Then use one of these utilities to reprogram the EDID.

One such tool can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/jgeneedid/#Sol ... cted_EDIDs

It's a DOS one, but we still could boot into DOS and then switch the displays.

This would eliminate the need of a EEPROM programming circuity.

Such tools only work on displays with non-write-protected EDIDs. If that wouldn't be the case, one could always lift the WP pin up (if it's connected) and pull it low (by shorting with GND).

What do you think? How feasable it would be?
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#148 Post by yak » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:42 am

To do some more research I've disassembled a T41 LCD assembly to see if the EDID EEPROM is there.

It turned out it had a Samsung TFT. The EEPROM was missing. There are solder pads for the SOIC and some resistors but they are just not there. See the photo.

However, it should be pretty straightforward to add them, specially that this is the upper side of the board, the components are not facing the back polarizer.
ThinkPad™ X201 / AFFS-120
i5-560M 2.67Ghz, 8GB RAM, Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD, Win 8 Pro 64-bit, UltraBase X200, ThinkPad Compact USB Keyboard,
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cb474
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#149 Post by cb474 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:49 am

I know people on this forum generally find the Boe-Hydis panel is the best. But I just got a T61 14" sxga+ with a Samsung panel to replace my T60 14" sxga+, which has a Boe-Hydis panel, and I'm finding the Samsung to but so blatantly better it's astonishing.

I was disappointed to see the T61 has a Samsung panel when I found it used, but it's hard to get sxga+ machines (especially without the Nvidia graphics) so I just sucked it up.

But putting the two machines side by side the difference is incredibly striking. The Boe-Hydis panel on the T60 has a very pronounced yellowish cast (which I never noticed before without the comparison--I guess my eyes just got used to it) and is much dimmer. By contrast the Samsung panel on the T61 is distinctly brighter and has what seem like much truer, more neutral colors. I cannot overemphasize how pronounced the difference is. This is not subtle nit picking.

Perhaps there is a generational difference in the panels that came with the T60 vs. the T61, regardless of the manufacturer. I don't know. It would be interesting to see what a Boe-Hydis in a T61 of the same manufacturing date looks like. But for now this has really changed my opinion about the Boe-Hydis and Samsung. Just thought people might be interested.

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Re: LCDs on T60/T60p - types, availability and other discussions

#150 Post by Cunha » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:10 pm

Maybe your Boe Hydis is a tired ready to fail screen?

But in comparison photos I have noticed that the color on the TN panels that were supposed to be so much crappier, often seem truer despite their poor viewing angles.

<shrug>
Me - X61s w/ UL, Wife - Z61t, Dad - Z61t, Mom - T61 4:3
Lenovo service parts index: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... TPAD-FRU#x

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