Thinkpads Forum

ryengineer, thanks for your comment but I read the article from notebookreview.com and also this official IBM pdf . In the IBM pdf, there is no word about blue ray as an option in July, only:

Planned availability
May 2007
WWAN models with Vodafone or Cingular (with integrated graphics) will be available in June 2007.
WWAN models with Vodacom, Swisscom, Telenor, Telus, or Cingular (with discrete graphics) will be available in July 2007.
Models with NVIDIA graphics and Windows Vista 64-bit or XP Pro will be available in July 2007.
Models with 160 GB (5400 rpm) FDE hard drives will be available July 2007.

MCheiron wrote:In the IBM pdf, there is no word about blue ray as an option in July.....

In the pdf doc they don't, however on this notebookreview link the guy does talk about the blue-ray option at the very end of the his article.

From reading that pdf, the product lineup shows all T61 equipped with Firewire. This of course is not bad, although this might have contributed to the relocation of the audio jacks. In the same time, the integration of both Firewire and a webcam really shows the transition of the T-series to replace the Z-series.

On the downside is the standard memory configuration consisting of two modules. Thinkpads have always consistently been equipped with one module so that expansion is easy and cheaper. Now it’s not different from all cheap consumer laptops. Maybe its due to dual-channel, but I still think it sucks.

I also would like to know if the new 4-cell battery is equal in Ah/power to the old 6-cell. Why is this changed? Did the redesign of the chassis require smaller batteries? Or is there some new kind of cell composition with higher voltage/current?

A little side note. As a professional sometimes I try to explain the difference of a business-machine and one that is aimed at the consumer market. I often state the location of jacks and buttons as an indication of how practical and thought out the design of the machine is. I often said that a business laptop would for instance never have headphone jacks at the front of the machine.

If you need high res, wait a few months for the T61p models (with 15" WUXGA)

The reason for the switch to two modules is performance. Lenovo made this change about the same time that the chipsets began supporting interleaved memory access. They aren't cutting corners. Also, since they have switched to CTO, you can specify a single module if that's what you want. The price difference on one I looked at a few days ago was not significant.

-darren

Hello everyone!

Well I kept track of Santa Rosa development and now that the design is out, I'm really disappointed.

Since I need a laptop ASAP, I'm going with T60p. It's proven itself already.

If these specs are final, lack of wireless 'N' support in the T61 is a *major* disappointment. The R61 specs include the Intel PRO/Wireless WiFi 4965AGN, so why leave the T series with the 3945ABG?

As for the full disk encryption (FDE), some above have taken this to mean Bitlocker. I disagree -- that's a function on the Vista OS and not a laptop design spec. I bet dollars to doughnuts it's either the existing Seagate or the forthcoming Hitachi encrypted drive. Let's hope it's Hitachi -- there are no interoperability specs among encrypted drives yet, so Thinkpad support for the Hitachi doesn't mean support for the Seagate and vice versa. So why would I rather see Hitachi and not Seagate? Although they have no encrypted drive releases yet, their product roadmap has them supporting FDE @ 7200rpm before anybody else.

A final issue -- and if anyone has any info please post -- what is the screen luminosity? With some Dells and Fujitsu coming in at 500-600 nits (great if you work outside), Lenovo's been a bit behind the curve here.

summa wrote:If these specs are final

They aren't.

summa wrote:If these specs are final, lack of wireless 'N' support in the T61 is a *major* disappointment.

I certainly have not seen a final set of specifications for the full range of T61 models. The Lenovo web site does not allow you to configure one yet, and the tabook has not been updated to include it yet.

Whether it's one/two memory modules or 'n' wireless, have some patience for another couple of weeks rather than making hasty assumptions right now. All signs point to a mid-may official announcement -- not far away now.

Apologies...the extracts here http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3657 do not list the 'N' wireless but the PDF here http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/22089.pdf DOES list models with 'N' wireless.

Yes, it is not released yet, not to mention saying it "final"

I think that the 15.4" models will be equipped with some IPS equivalent LCD display panels - with similar quality I assume
Or else, 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 will be not as usable in such size

milstein wrote:I think that the 15.4" models will be equipped with some IPS equivalent LCD display panels - with similar quality I assume

No, the quality will be same like the competition (read horrible) The only IPS equivalent is IPS. Probably the best luck will be to get a non-glossy screen, TN crap of course.

Puppy wrote:

milstein wrote:I think that the 15.4" models will be equipped with some IPS equivalent LCD display panels - with similar quality I assume

No, the quality will be same like the competition (read horrible) The only IPS equivalent is IPS. Probably the best luck will be to get a non-glossy screen, TN crap of course.

While I agree that IPS ThinkPads are history, and only IPS is IPS, I think we could at least hope for S-PVA displays. While these still don't match IPS, they are a great improvement over TN panels, with real 24-bit colour and much-improved viewing angles.

But, as with so many other T61/T61p specifics, we need to wait and see ..

I would like to commend everyone who has shown a great deal of grace toward Lenovo.
I managed to pick up a Flexview UXGA T60p recently and I am really glad that I did...

Everyone has defended Lenovo and their decison to not offer Flexview as an option on ThinkPads. Folks have cited supply issues and have jumped on this bandwagon saying that this is not Lenovo's fault.

I disagree. The ThinkPad was never offered with Flexview in the wide format and not at all in the 14.1" format. It finally occurred to me that they blamed supply problems when the real deal is they eliminated demand.
I suggest (though naturally I don't know) that this was a decision that was probably made 2 years ago when the decision to eliminate the 4:3 format was also made.

The release of the T61 and all of the comments in this thread point to what I have suspected and still suspect is going to happen.
I believe that the realease of the T61 shows a slow move toward greater profits through sales of more and cheaper (also more easlily manufactured) machines.

We already see the US Government eliminating the ThinkPad as an option for their employees (due to National Security concerns).
I forecast that we will see Lenovo gradually move away from IBM's original commitment to the corporate customer. I am not saying that they will not build great machines. Nor am I saying that corporate entities will not want them.
I am saying that the priorities of the corporate client will not be first as we have seen in times past.

The T61 (at least what we see here) is obviously just not the same machine that we have come to love so much. Maybe people will still love them and the quality will still be there.

I (for the record) hope that I am wrong....

Bing0 wrote:We already see the US Government eliminating the ThinkPad as an option for their employees (due to National Security concerns).

What National Security concerns?

Temetka wrote:What National Security concerns?

As lenovo is an asian brand so US state department has restricted the use of thinkpads for classified work.

Here is the full news.

ryengineer wrote:

Temetka wrote:What National Security concerns?

As lenovo is an asian brand so US state department has restricted the use of thinkpads for classified work.
Here is the full news.

This is indeed an altered form of protectionism with an ridiculous excuse. With the same logic, as no country should use any machine with Intel chips or Motorola chips in their national departments except the US

Much as I love ThinkPads, it would be irresponsible for our intelligence services not to take the steps required to prevent infiltration. Does anyone remember the Russian gas pipeline explosion story?

I hope that they take appropriate steps with whatever laptops that they do purchase because most if not all mainboards are built in Asia.

What I don't understand is:

But Lenovo insisted the state department computers, which were made at former IBM facilities in North Carolina and Mexico, posed no security threat.

Why were they selling the government old inventory and where the heck did those 16,000 machines go? There are times when I would kill to get a laptop from a US warehouse!

-darren

Before this thread reduces to nothing more than political nonsense and inflamed debate, I thought I'd pitch in that the new design makes me - well - sick.

After missing out on the 15" IPS screens on the T60p, then missing out on the 14.1" (and any letterbox models altogether), I must say that I'm sorely disappointed with the new offering. It doesn't look like a T, it's not what I fell in love with

And where the hell's the IBM logo? Huh?

I bought myself a cheap T43 to satisfy my cravings until they sorted out which models I could and could not get my hands on (thanks Lenovo Australia), and now it looks like I'm doomed.

Who wants to sell me their T60p? T43p? Looks like I have to start a back catalogue

I was thinking to myself this last week just how amazing this T43 really is. Just looking at it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Now they've butchered it with a long knife over, and over, and over again :'(

No, I probably don't have the emotional maturity to deal with this at all. I've wanted one for so long, and I've missed out it seems... forever! Oh why! Why me?! waaaa waaaa waaaa wawa waaaaa waaaaaaaa

Bing0 wrote: #1... I disagree. The ThinkPad was never offered with Flexview in the wide format and not at all in the 14.1" format. It finally occurred to me that they blamed supply problems when the real deal is they eliminated demand.
I suggest (though naturally I don't know) that this was a decision that was probably made 2 years ago when the decision to eliminate the 4:3 format was also made...
#2... I believe that the realease of the T61 shows a slow move toward greater profits through sales of more and cheaper (also more easlily manufactured) machines...
#3... We already see the US Government eliminating the ThinkPad as an option for their employees (due to National Security concerns)...
I forecast that we will see Lenovo gradually move away from IBM's original commitment to the corporate customer. I am not saying that they will not build great machines. Nor am I saying that corporate entities will not want them.
I am saying that the priorities of the corporate client will not be first as we have seen in times past.
#4... The T61 (at least what we see here) is obviously just not the same machine that we have come to love so much. Maybe people will still love them and the quality will still be there...

Bing0 & Growly, it seems that you are a bit nostalgic towards the "good old days" of your favorite brand. I am not sure about the future of our beloved brand either, but I want to convince and assure you that there are reasons to be optimistic about it:

#1 Please do some product search on brands that are still offering 4:3 display on the market. And the answer you will find is: these are RARE and mostly previous generations leftover, not to mention the availability of IPS (as SXGA+ & UXGA) in these 4:3 formats
Obviously, it is a laptop-market driven shift in display module manufacturing industry. In the past, laptop is very expensive, and for business & VIP kind of use only, but now, almost everyone has a laptop. Another technology with similar scenario is the cellular phone. So there is a lot of dynamic elements in this laptop market. Nonetheless, it is unknown whether the laptop-market is going towards the right direction (especially here for business users). I'll opt for the longevity of high quality anti-glare display, 16:10 for larger screen sizes (14 or larger), and 4:3 for small screen sizes (below 14)

#2 There is an apparent shift towards the form of operation of Dell, but obviously Thinkpads are still made and design with the heart of Thinkpads, and Dells are still (just) Dells. I am quite convinced by an argument of another user here:

wackyda wrote: Profit is not a bad thing. You should all hope that Lenovo finds a way to maintain some kind of reliable quarterly profit as it is the only way to maintain R&D, brand investment, and the human assets they need. They have shown very little profit if at all since they bought the PC division.

What you are witnessing is the ongoing restructuring of the company post purchase of the IBM PC division. There is nothing abnormal about it at all. They've stated since day one that their expense to revenue %'s were way higher than the industry standard.

Take your pick, would you rather Lenovo wither away maintaining the status quo or would you rather they emerge as a healthy, competititive company in the PC industry while still being able to produce a great product like THinkPad?

I'd rather they do what's best for the company, and leave me with a mainstream choice rather than being left with just HP and Dell.

They will grow... just give them a chance.

from this post: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=41378
Whether Lenovo's "surgery" has been nicely done to let it recover in time to compete healthy, is also another question

#3 A lot of changes in the rumoured T61 are indeed requested by corporate customers, e.g. video conferencing capability, built-in card reader. And the logic should follow that US government indeed reduced its demand on Thinkpad for both economic protectionism AND not-in-position-to-command reasons. International space station still have Thinkpads at work, and I am sure that newer Thinkpad models will be brought there in the future. All that because reliability and usability are the two quality astronants and corporate users are looking for. Thinkpad is still simply the symbol of reliability of usability in the laptop world
Will a (new) brand emerge to replace its position? I cannot see that in the near forseeable future, yet

#4 Whether T61 will be or will not be the machine that corporate users adore is still unknown, let's wait and see. In the leaked picture, edges are smoothed (some Thinkpad users think that their are too many sharp edges) and the resulted chassis does look a bit fat. I am sure Lenovo guys are working hard to meet the demands and feedbacks of their corporate users, if you genuinely share your views with them
Let's talk deeper into the T61 when it is really released this summer, the Thinkpad design team needs our feedbacks and inputs

IBM, since the day when it has slimmed its business by selling its difficult PC division, has nothing to do with the Thinkpad design now: there are collaborations but basically Thinkpad R&D teams are all acquired by Lenovo. And I suppose Lenovo are making use of the 2008 Olympics as their big opportunity for independent branding, so it is indeed THE RIGHT TIME to try to get out of the shadow of the Big Blue. Whether it can successfully get out of the shadow and stand tall on their own feet? They are emerging and getting mature, so let's see

All that I want to do is to be able to buy a high quality laptop in 2011. If they are all made in Asia and there isn't one out there that I like as much as I like my T60p, I am going to be dissappointed.

I actually have done a lot of physical and logical support on laptops and I would really hate to look at the market and find that the laptop market has moved toward machines that don't hold up well.

I heard a factory rep in the furniture business tell me one time that the furniture that is least expensive is actually designed to wear out more quickly. He said that if a consumer is going to spend so little, the manufacturer wants that consumer back in the market to buy furniture again soon.

Moores law is moving toward its finish. Scientists are saying that chips are approaching the molecular level when discussing traces on boards and chips. We used to need new machines because ours were slow. I hope that we do not get in a situation where we buy a new computer because ours is broken and it is just out of warranty.

Oh yeah, Why not a WSXGA+ in the Flexview technology? Would one high quality display stand out so much that Lenovo decided to not offer it at all?

tomh009 wrote:While I agree that IPS ThinkPads are history, and only IPS is IPS, I think we could at least hope for S-PVA displays.

That was my slight hope also, and i know Kuhon did point out in his article abou the IPS displays that they will try new technologies. But looking at the market, i don't have the slightest hope for S-PVA or even MVA. PVA's high horse Samsung has pulled this off the desktop monitor market, and offers this on 20 inch+ models. Earlier it was available even in 15" XGA.
MVA is more expensive, or at least was.

If the consumers keep wanting cheaper and cheaper LCDs and want larger and larger - and they do - you can be completely sure that no company would ever want to produce low SKUs like a 15.4" WUXGA PVA, which is MUCH more expensive than cutting out the 22" beasts they do now with low resolutions.
It's all about profit, and as few to no users complain about TN nothing will ever happen.

Bing0,
I think this was truely IBMs fault by selling the PC division. At that point they also sold all their stock in IDtech - and so of course CMO closed it down, because otherwise it would never make any profits.

Troels wrote:I think this was truely IBMs fault by selling the PC division. At that point they also sold all their stock in IDtech - and so of course CMO closed it down, because otherwise it would never make any profits.

Yes. But it confirms my theory that top-quality products simply can not survive these days. ThinkPads were too good to make expected profit comparing to tons of mickey-mouse screen toys.

I expect the same situation in LCD monitors market. There will be few professional Eizo or NEC monitors for extreme price and the rest will slowly convert to crap as well. Another good example are PC keyboards. Remember the good old "clicking" IBM keyboard with mechanical switches ? It is impossible to buy anything like that now. It has changed to the "pressing-mushroom-like-feel" membrane crap.

Troels wrote:

tomh009 wrote:While I agree that IPS ThinkPads are history, and only IPS is IPS, I think we could at least hope for S-PVA displays.

That was my slight hope also, and i know Kuhon did point out in his article abou the IPS displays that they will try new technologies. But looking at the market, i don't have the slightest hope for S-PVA or even MVA. PVA's high horse Samsung has pulled this off the desktop monitor market, and offers this on 20 inch+ models. Earlier it was available even in 15" XGA.
MVA is more expensive, or at least was.

If the consumers keep wanting cheaper and cheaper LCDs and want larger and larger - and they do - you can be completely sure that no company would ever want to produce low SKUs like a 15.4" WUXGA PVA, which is MUCH more expensive than cutting out the 22" beasts they do now with low resolutions.
It's all about profit, and as few to no users complain about TN nothing will ever happen.

Bing0,
I think this was truely IBMs fault by selling the PC division. At that point they also sold all their stock in IDtech - and so of course CMO closed it down, because otherwise it would never make any profits.

As sad as it sounds that high quality displays seem to be gone in Thinkpads, we should also acknowledge that in the past notebooks, and Thinkpads in particular, have been extremely expensive. I remember paying (thru corporate account) some fantastic $6000 to 10.000 for a Thinkpad.

Today notebooks are mainstream, even high-end Thinkpads can be bought at $2000, even less with coupons, discount whatever.
Imagine a R60 for $599 or an HP for $499. There is just no room left for worthy profits. It is a throat cutting business nowadays.

It was a very wise decision for IBM to get out of hardware business, especially in commodities (which notebooks are).

Now if Lenovo wants to succeed and make a profit (Thinkpads under IBM always made horrible losses) they need to lower manufacturing costs by lowering raw materials and increasing their sales volume. That's why you need the 3000 series (higher purchase volume for material) and why a tiny product variation (i.e. Flexview line) would not make any sense.
If as a display manufacturer I can make a significantly higher profit/unit in TV business instead of a few pennies on notebook displays, the decision is clear: forget IPS in notebooks!
LCD manufacturer are in a throat cutting business cycle. They make horrendous losses (LG Philips, Samsung) because prices are just too low.

I as a consumer am saddened about decreasing quality, on the other hand I get drastically cheaper products, which is good on the other hand.

Looking at the "good old times" with heavy metal Hi-fi equipment (e.g. Braun, Dual) and metal exoskeleton notebooks (TP 600) the trend to "cheaper" Hifi (the ABS plastic ipod docks with loud speakers) and lightweight ABS notebooks shows that consumers are simply willing to buy more often and cheaper. On the old days we would buy a TV every 20 years. Now your great TV is obsolete every 30 months (HDTV, satellite stuff, better LCD, whatever) and you just buy a new one.

That's where the business makes is profit nowadays, low profit margins with high sales volume.

So, instead of complaining that IPS is gone on notebooks at the moment, I am more than thankful that I could now afford a great 24" S-IPS Philips TV in my living room at a really good price.

beeblebrox wrote:So, instead of complaining that IPS is gone on notebooks at the moment, I am more than thankful that I could now afford a great 24" S-IPS Philips TV in my living room at a really good price.

Sorry, I don't see the point here. Why should I compare ThinkPad with a TV ? I absolutely don't care about a TV. I just want a decent notebook.

Bing0 wrote:All that I want to do is to be able to buy a high quality laptop in 2011. If they are all made in Asia and there isn't one out there that I like as much as I like my T60p, I am going to be dissappointed.].

They are and always have been all made in Asia. Welcome to the real world.

Bing0 wrote:Oh yeah, Why not a WSXGA+ in the Flexview technology? Would one high quality display stand out so much that Lenovo decided to not offer it at all?

What do you want with Lenovo? No manufacturer has ever offered a WSXGA+ Flexview panel for a laptop. Such panels don't exist. Lenovo has nothing and never had anything to do with it.

Bing0 wrote:All that I want to do is to be able to buy a high quality laptop in 2011. If they are all made in Asia and there isn't one out there that I like as much as I like my T60p, I am going to be dissappointed.

Well, I don't see any good reason of not buying it just because they're being made in Asia.

The thing you should be more concerned about is quality and performance rather than origin of any product. When the PC division was IBM owned one of the few differences were it was supervised under US quality assurance team and now asians, which is as good as before, if not better.

And by the way your T60p is made in China too.

dr_st wrote:

Bing0 wrote:All that I want to do is to be able to buy a high quality laptop in 2011. If they are all made in Asia and there isn't one out there that I like as much as I like my T60p, I am going to be dissappointed.].

They are and always have been all made in Asia. Welcome to the real world.

Bing0 wrote:Oh yeah, Why not a WSXGA+ in the Flexview technology? Would one high quality display stand out so much that Lenovo decided to not offer it at all?

What do you want with Lenovo? No manufacturer has ever offered a WSXGA+ Flexview panel for a laptop. Such panels don't exist. Lenovo has nothing and never had anything to do with it.

Thank you for welcoming me to the real world.
I have often been dissappointed by the 'real world' as well.

In capatalism, if I am willing to pay for a high quality device and there are others who are willing to pay also, then I and others who are willing to pay also, should be able to purchase those devices.

When the economic principles of John Nash are applied by manufacturers of laptop computers across the pacific rim and Asia, we the consumers lose options. In other words, the Nash equilibrium means, when applied in the case of notebook manufacturers, that everybody in the game wins...except me and those like me who want high quality notebooks with high quality screens.

I am not an economist and therefore do not intend to put myself forth as an expert. I am only a person who is steadfastly opinionated in that I want quality in everything I buy.
I do not have to like the fact that what appears to be a tacit understanding among manufacturers of notebook computers, ends up resulting in a limitation of my options when seeking a high quality solution for my notebook of choice.

If no manufacturers deviate from the set strategy of not supplying IPS or equivalent displays, (this can also apply to the makers of the screens themselves) then the consumers will use other variables to decide which computers to buy.

I am not saying that Lenovo is evil. I am also not saying that given the same set of circumstances, if I were them that I would not do the same thing.

I am saying however that I do not have to like it.

....and in case you are wondering I do not like it.

ryengineer wrote:

Bing0 wrote:All that I want to do is to be able to buy a high quality laptop in 2011. If they are all made in Asia and there isn't one out there that I like as much as I like my T60p, I am going to be dissappointed.

Well, I don't see any good reason of not buying it just because they're being made in Asia.

The thing you should be more concerned about is quality and performance rather than origin of any product. When the PC division was IBM owned one of the few differences were it was supervised under US quality assurance team and now asians, which is as good as before, if not better.

And by the way your T60p is made in China too.

I didn't mean to imply that I don't want to buy a computer made in Asia. I meant to imply that the fact that they are all made there is part of the problem. Consider my post above in reference to the Nash Equilibrium.

I don't care where my computer is built. I wish that it were built in the United States though...
I also wish that when I call about something on my credit card statement I were speaking to someone in the U.S.

This is the real world though.

Growly wrote:Before this thread reduces to nothing more than political nonsense and inflamed debate, I thought I'd pitch in that the new design makes me - well - sick.

After missing out on the 15" IPS screens on the T60p, then missing out on the 14.1" (and any letterbox models altogether), I must say that I'm sorely disappointed with the new offering. It doesn't look like a T, it's not what I fell in love with

And where the hell's the IBM logo? Huh?

The "logo issue" can be fixed by spending $10 on eBay. I will probably do that, as cosmetic as it is.