Thinkpads Forum

T61 is now at a lower price. For the same configuration, it was at least $150 cheaper today than yesterday.

At the rate Lenovo has been slashing prices, Thinkpads will be as affordable as Dell laptops before long. I hope this doesn't mean Thinkpad quality is going down.

As I observe it, quality has gone down already
I mean the build quality is still OK, the T60 series are great, sturdy machines,
but the quality of the whole package is decreasing:
- Flexview/IPS is gone, and no equiavalent replacement available (IPS option?, OLED's?)
- it seems to be getting harder to buy 4:3 screens
- the traditional Windows-key-free keyboard gone for Linux users (as option at least)
- battery live does not increase
- repair and service qualtiy gone haywire (the cost of cheap outsourcing)
- the famous worldwide warranty support is left unclear for the end users
- laptops of **all** labels are produced by the same manufacturers in China
(Thoughbooks seem to be the exception)

+ Even though, I've seen some significant technical improvements in the T60-series,
e.g. better fan design, roll cage, water drain
but there are too many smallish drawbacks that I would actually buy one.


IMHO there is not much difference left, which would justify the price difference
to a HP or Dell with a trackpoint.

I guess that's the reason why sales people have to reduce the price.

- Flexview/IPS is gone, and no equiavalent replacement available (IPS option?, OLED's?)

You haven't even seen the screen quality of the current models, so how can you proclaim this as a "degradation".

- it seems to be getting harder to buy 4:3 screens

Probably because that majority of consumners are flocking to widescreen?

- the traditional Windows-key-free keyboard gone for Linux users (as option at least)

Dunno what to tell you about this one - remap it to something else?

- battery live does not increase

Someone just posted battery life specs on here, a far cry from the "omzg3rs - only 90 minutes of work time while im watching a dvd!".

- repair and service qualtiy gone haywire (the cost of cheap outsourcing)

Erm. Uhm. Again - you dont have the unit, or have need of the above. How can you comment on it?

- the famous worldwide warranty support is left unclear for the end users

Call Lenovo?

- laptops of **all** labels are produced by the same manufacturers in China
(Thoughbooks seem to be the exception)

How is this a problem?

The price doesn't seem any cheaper to me - Dunno where the 150 price drop is coming from.

$150 cheaper = base down $80 + various upgrades summary down $70

lophiomys wrote:As I observe it, quality has gone down already
I mean the build quality is still OK, the T60 series are great, sturdy machines, but the quality of the whole package is decreasing:
- Flexview/IPS is gone, and no equiavalent replacement available (IPS option?, OLED's?)
- it seems to be getting harder to buy 4:3 screens
- the traditional Windows-key-free keyboard gone for Linux users (as option at least)
- battery live does not increase

None of the above points have anything to do with quality -- only with the availability of specific features or functions you are looking for.

Apart from those, the worldwide warranty can be clarified by calling your retailer or Lenovo. And I'll leave the repair service claim as an argument I don't want to get into right now.

If I were living in the US right now I would buy the T61 right away! It looks like a very promising machine, with Intel Turbo Memory, new integrated graphics, new fan design.

I wonder if the newest Intel GMA X3100 GM965 w/ 1394 has better performance than the Discrete Graphics T4x has (like my 128MB FireGL T2) my T42p have. I'd like to know that, because I use to play some games on my machine (Need for Speed, Toca Race Driver 3, some Age of Empires 2, GTA San Andreas, etc).

I'd also like to know that xtr, that'd give me a good comparison to real world performance.

Loph is right, the quality has gone down

lets be honest - any one who moved from a T4x to a T60 or from an X3X to X60 could feel the lower quality of the T60/X60 - poor lcds, keyboard feels cheaper etc...right you get faster processors, ram, fsb etc...but there is something that feels different when you use the machine.

It looks like Lenovo is looking to increase market share by dropping prices and of course quality is going to suffer when you aiming at the mass market - look at Dell!...I'm not saying this is a bad thing - look at the T61 laptops with really exciting hardware at the lowest cost we could never even dream of!

Don't get me wrong - this is not meant to start a flamewar - I still use my T60 over my couple of T40/T41P - progress is progess - In work i need more speed for some of the applications we run, but, something feels different and is very noticable to me....Can i stand over that with any facts or evidence thats not totally personal and subjective?
no...

T4x is somewhat great, what I don't like about my T42 is the palmreast creak, hyperactive fan, keyboard flexing on the right. Beside that I love my machine, but indeed is nice to progress and have a faster machine. As in another post I wrote, I would trade my T42p for a brand new T61. I can't bear the fan noise in this very humid hot days

zappb wrote:Loph is right, the quality has gone down

lets be honest - any one who moved from a T4x to a T60 or from an X3X to X60 could feel the lower quality of the T60/X60 - poor lcds, keyboard feels cheaper etc...right you get faster processors, ram, fsb etc...but there is something that feels different when you use the machine.
<snip>
....Can i stand over that with any facts or evidence thats not totally personal and subjective?
no...

Poor LCDs? Yes, the IPS option is gone, but it was never available on the X series anyway, and the Ultralite LCD on the X60 is actually nicer than the X3/X4 screens.

Keyboards? I have not tested all the keyboard varieties (and there are multiple suppliers for every model) but the few T60s I have used have had quite good keyboards.

So ... no IBM logo, squared-off touchpad buttons, silver volume controls, no red on Trackpoint buttons. These are all facts and may not make some of us happy. But they really have nothing at all to do with quality.

the overall user experience has to do with quality tom - although i understand where your coming from...

I haven't actually seen or used a T60 so I only have pics to go by, but it seems to me that Lenovo is caving to the market.

- the headphone jack is now on the front, instead of the side;

- no flexview


Flexview was actually one of my primary reasons for getting a T42. Next time (in a year maybe) I'll just switch back to a macbook, as they will have LED backlighting, which looks intriguing.

well, I really can not confirm what is said here about the quality.
On the weekend I pushed my T60p to the limit and I stumbled over the power cord. It was really bad, the only power was connected to an outlet in front of the computer, so the cord just came from behind the computer. As you can imagine, with that angle on the plug, the machine was just flying. The running machine crashed on a hardwood floor.

Result: nothing damaged at all.

I saw both machines, my old T40p and the T60p when they are open. The T40 would never survived such a crash. At least the motherboard would be broken. With the new rollcage, this basically can not happen.

Also I have this machine now since almost a year, not one bluescreen, nothing. It is rock solid. The T40p bluescreened basically on a daily base.

The T40 was a good machine as well, but nowhere near the T60.
When you take the T40 in a corner the whole body is just twisting, which quite often led to motherboard replacements at IBM because the board broke inside the body. (Mine had that defect as well, thanks to state of the art service, the board was replaced within 24 hours at my home).

The only disadvantage I can see with th T60 is that it does not look that nice and that it is a bit thicker due to the rollcage.

Wolfgang

Here in Taiwan now the number 1 notebook is Asus and the number 2 notebook is Acer. When I asked about buying a ThinkPad all salesman who sell notebooks asked me to keep away as the quality is not the same as it used to be and they also claim that getting it serviced is a problem too. I do know that they went under in Thailand. I think what I like most about the ThinkPads is the Keyboard. Keyboards on Asus laptops are not all that great and neither are their hinges but as far as the performance and components are concerned, I definitely can't complain about the Asus laptops.

styleinexpat - its hard to tell if the vendor is just trying to sell his products - but yea acer are now the second biggest PC Manufacturer, behind Dell having overtaken Lenovo recently.

Freakwave has a point about the quality - the roll cage and structural body of the T60 does show that the quality is still in these laptops - although i do notice a different in the keyboard and screen...

Tom you have a point on the X60's screen...although i haven't used it for an extended period.

The lower prices then I guess, can be attributed to Lenovo's economic clout and manufacturing efficiencies in the soon to be greatest economy in the world...it looks like with the T61 released margins are being squeezed tighter then ever before...

I sent my TP to be repaired three weeks ago. I still haven't got it back, but I've been told that there is nothing wrong with it and that they will return it to me unrepaired.
Seems scandalous to me that it takes them over three weeks to find out that there is nothing wrong with my laptop.

I suppose the hinges of my LCD aren't really loose, I'm just imagining it. That's why I paid over 25pounds postage to send it to them and have now had to order them myself from IBM parts -- which will cost me another 35pounds.

Lenovo is getting on my nerves.

I don't know elsewhere but here in the Philippines where Thinkpads costs alot more than your average notebook, I can say that IBM/Lenovo service is very satisfactory.

Unlike other brands where you have to fall in line in their service centers, IBM sends replacement parts to us the following day after making a call.

Now that's what I call service

ANDS wrote:- Flexview/IPS is gone, and no equiavalent replacement available (IPS option?, OLED's?)

You haven't even seen the screen quality of the current models, so how can you proclaim this as a "degradation".

TN = no quality. As for design, the off-center screen is probably the worst one change.

On site warranty on my T41p has been brilliantly quick. Got a motherboard replacement within the next few days, from an engineer, left him some notes about using some Arctic Silver 5 when he put it back together, no fuss at my Fedora Core 6 install. Even called me up to ask about the RAM (one of them apparently is not IBM) and he just said it was odd. Service hasn't suffered. There are problems with the T41, and I've encountered a few of them, like creaky palmrest, cracked palmrest, overheating GPU frying the motherboard, screen's not very bright. There'll always be something to pick at, and I think that we're looking at the T4x series with rose-tinted glasses, and not doing the same optimistically for the T60, just because Lenovo took them over.

yep, on site is awesome.

My harddrive of my T60p (bought and registered in Germany) was in the process of dying 2 months ago. (Strange noises).
I called IBM in South Africa (I was on a trip there) and they replaced the harddrive at my home in South Africa within 24 hours. After opening the ticket, they called me twice, first to evaluate what the problem is, then to confirm the repair. They also asked me if I need any CDs to install.

That I call true worldwide on-site support.

stylinexpat wrote:Here in Taiwan now the number 1 notebook is Asus and the number 2 notebook is Acer. When I asked about buying a ThinkPad all salesman who sell notebooks asked me to keep away as the quality is not the same as it used to be and they also claim that getting it serviced is a problem too. I do know that they went under in Thailand. I think what I like most about the ThinkPads is the Keyboard. Keyboards on Asus laptops are not all that great and neither are their hinges but as far as the performance and components are concerned, I definitely can't complain about the Asus laptops.

Well, I'm in Thailand and I can buy ThinkPads here, although only at specific Lenovo dealers. They are still serviced by IBM too, but we don't have on-site service. Last year I sent in a ThinkPad on Friday afternoon just before closing (6 PM) and they said it'll take them at least one working day to fix it, but they called me on Monday at 8 AM and said the mainboard was replaced, and I could pick it up any time.

One thing I liked about the Lenovo takeover was that ThinkPads actually became easily available to end-users. My first ThinkPad was the 700C (!), but my second, third, fourth, and soon fifth ThinkPads all happened after the Lenovo takeover.

As for market occupation, number 1 by volume here is Acer. Acer is extremely fast to market (Santa Rosa already widely available since last week) and no pre-installed OS (cheaper by US$200+) helped. Lenovo/IBM is 4th, and ASUS is 5th.

zappb wrote:lets be honest - any one who moved from a T4x to a T60 or from an X3X to X60 could feel the lower quality of the T60/X60 - poor lcds, keyboard feels cheaper etc...

Perhaps you feel that way but the users in my consulting group (who are IT knowledegable and can be very picky as users) universally think that the T60s are better machines in terms of both build quality and usability, than the previous T4x ThinkPads.

Cheers,

Bill B.

I have purchased and used about eight T42/p machines and about six T60/p machines. Build quality is the same, IMO. That is to say, excellent. But the T42 is more attractive with the red details on the mouse buttons and the angled edges. T60 has a more boxy, boring look.