Thinkpads Forum

Had my T61 for a couple weeks now.

I'm curious what is "normal" for the hinges on these things.

This is my first thinkpad- I've had mostly toshiba's for like 6-7 years.

On the Toshiba's you can open the lid with one hand. Just unlatch it and lift.

On the ThinkPad i have to unlatch it with one hand and lift the screen while I hold the base down with my other hand. Is that typical?

I've been waiting for it to "break in" and get easier but it seems that this is the way it is?

Is there something that needs repair on my particular machine- or do i just need to get used to this new method?

thanks!

michaelk wrote:Is that typical?

I've owned 26 Thinkpads and only two (both R50p's) require that I hold the base down while lifting the display.

thanks for the feedback.

anyone with a t61?

If it's "just the way it is" on the T61, I can deal with it. But if it's not normal I want to send it in to get fixed.

michaelk wrote:thanks for the feedback.

anyone with a t61?

If it's "just the way it is" on the T61, I can deal with it. But if it's not normal I want to send it in to get fixed.

I have a widescreen T60p and it is the same way. As a matter of fact, most every Thinkpad I have ever owned has been this way. There is nothing wrong with the hinges at all-be thankful they are that way and not loose-because if they were as it aged, the hinges would not be able to hold the screen in the proper position.

Welcome to Thinkpad build quality!

Ditto. Mine is the same way... I think that this is largely due to the fact that the base is so light. The only significant weight is your battery, which is on the back--if it was on the front like some of the Asus notebooks, I doubt you would have this problem.

Eric Giles wrote:

michaelk wrote:thanks for the feedback.

anyone with a t61?

If it's "just the way it is" on the T61, I can deal with it. But if it's not normal I want to send it in to get fixed.

I have a widescreen T60p and it is the same way. As a matter of fact, most every Thinkpad I have ever owned has been this way. There is nothing wrong with the hinges at all-be thankful they are that way and not loose-because if they were as it aged, the hinges would not be able to hold the screen in the proper position.

Welcome to Thinkpad build quality!

ah- maybe it's the widescreen than.

"Nothing wrong" I can live with but "thankful"?

The thinkpad IS WAY more rigid. Just had a 6 year old toshiba die on us the other day- bad connection from the power board to the main board and I suspect it's because you can flex the toshiba's in your hands pretty easily so over time it went.

But lenovo should buy a couple toshiba's and see how to make a hinge that stays put yet only needs one hand. I've had about 5 of them in the past 5-7 years and the seem to have the hinge down pat.

not a major thing- I can learn to use both hands- just kind of surprised me. I thought the one hand way was pretty much the norm on everyone.

Redmumba wrote:Ditto. Mine is the same way... I think that this is largely due to the fact that the base is so light. The only significant weight is your battery, which is on the back--if it was on the front like some of the Asus notebooks, I doubt you would have this problem.

that's another great point- the weight. The toshiba's all tend to have the battery up front. And in general they were all WAY heavier. So that's probably a good portion of it.

I'd say lenovo should move the batteries up front but that precludes the 'humpback' batteries. I really like that I can have a 4 cell "slim" battery on the thinkpad AND a 7 cell bulger for times when I want to get the max. So I wouldn't change a thing.

Now that I understand it some more- It makes a lot more sense. I'll take the trade off.

But lenovo should buy a couple toshiba's and see how to make a hinge that stays put yet only needs one hand. Wink I've had about 5 of them in the past 5-7 years and the seem to have the hinge down pat.

Your kidding right?

I have seen several Toshibas, Compaq/HPs and Dells that need to have the lid opened past the desired angle to compensate for the play in the hinges. The hinge tightness is not limited to the 15.4" ThinkPads. My 15" T43p has to be opened with two hands. I definitely prefer the ThinkPad aluminum hinges over every other system I have seen.

unimorpheus wrote:

But lenovo should buy a couple toshiba's and see how to make a hinge that stays put yet only needs one hand. Wink I've had about 5 of them in the past 5-7 years and the seem to have the hinge down pat.

Your kidding right?

I have seen several Toshibas, Compaq/HPs and Dells that need to have the lid opened past the desired angle to compensate for the play in the hinges. The hinge tightness is not limited to the 15.4" ThinkPads. My 15" T43p has to be opened with two hands. I definitely prefer the ThinkPad aluminum hinges over every other system I have seen.

nope not kidding at all.

I have had 5 straight toshiba satellite, satellite pro, or tecra machines where the hinge was 1 handed and never "sagged" even at extreme angles way below or past 90 degrees. As above one was even 6 years old without any sagging (but the flex in the case seems to have done that one in.)

Those were all work PC's and I'm a consultant that works at a differnt location every day- so I pack up my lap top each and every day at least once so it's not like they didn't get use.

Last year I bought my kids a 450 dollar gateway and it's one handed also and has yet to sag. (and they are 6 and eight and abuse the pants out of the thing- the dvd face plate is always falling off they abuse it so hard).

So I dont think it's impossible at all to design a device hinge that needs one hand to open AND stays put.

The probelm with this widescreen t61 probably is the top is actually heavier than the base and so it might not be so simple. But buy a heavy pig and it works fine- LOL.

also- this is a 14 inch widescreen- it's not a 15.

(just to keep the facts straight - dont think it really matters all that much)

michaelk wrote:

Redmumba wrote:Ditto. Mine is the same way... I think that this is largely due to the fact that the base is so light. The only significant weight is your battery, which is on the back--if it was on the front like some of the Asus notebooks, I doubt you would have this problem.

that's another great point- the weight. The toshiba's all tend to have the battery up front. And in general they were all WAY heavier. So that's probably a good portion of it.

I'd say lenovo should move the batteries up front but that precludes the 'humpback' batteries. I really like that I can have a 4 cell "slim" battery on the thinkpad AND a 7 cell bulger for times when I want to get the max. So I wouldn't change a thing.

Now that I understand it some more- It makes a lot more sense. I'll take the trade off.

you can always have the bulge in the front like the Dell Latitude D620 (also probably the 630), the D420, and D820 do. It's horrible! It's like a big wrist wrest but not the full width of the laptop, so your wrists wrest directly on the sharp corners. bah!

zverg wrote:

michaelk wrote:ou can always have the bulge in the front like the Dell Latitude D620 (also probably the 630), the D420, and D820 do. It's horrible! It's like a big wrist wrest but not the full width of the laptop, so your wrists wrest directly on the sharp corners. bah!

Just a quick correction, the D820, and probably D830, does not have the battery sticking out from the front. The 9-cell battery is actually a flush mount battery that does not protrude past the perimeter of the base.

hypertrophy wrote:

zverg wrote: Just a quick correction, the D820, and probably D830, does not have the battery sticking out from the front. The 9-cell battery is actually a flush mount battery that does not protrude past the perimeter of the base.

You know far too much about Dells.. you should be ashamed! hehe

That being said I'm on a D620 right now with a D630 to my right.

I'm just doing testing for Ubuntu's gutsy gibbon release on both of them though.

My 15" T60p is the same way. I can start to open it without holding the base down, but then I have to to open it all the way.

It surprises me that so many of you have Thinkpads that require both hands to open. I never had to do that until I got my R50p's last month. I guess I've owned too many old Thinkpads with loose hinges!

This "two-handed" hinge tightness is absolutely intentional and is almost a trademark of thinkpad design (save some of the X-series I've tried). They're designed to be strong, tight, and beefy, and many reviews point to this as a plus.

After using Dells for a number of years, I got absolutely sick of how the displays "flopped" - as someone said earlier, you often have to open the screen more to compensate for the play in the hinges. And often, even once open, you can tilt the screens over an inch before you feel the friction of the hinges "catch." I hate that behavior - you open the screen on a thinkpad and it stays where you set it to.

Even on my 3yo T42p, I still need 2 hands to open it. I have to admit, it's not really convenient sometimes, like when you need to open the hinge on your lap while holding a coffee, but IMO it's much better than having a saggy, floppy lip that requires constant overcompensation every time you want to adjust the angel a few mm!

And yes, over time the hinges do tend to loosen up a bit - IME it happens most with smaller 12-14" thinkpads, but the hinges always stay tighter and more "precise" than that of most other manufacturers.

Kenn wrote:over time the hinges do tend to loosen up a bit - IME it happens most with smaller 12-14" thinkpads

That explains it. The two R50p's I currently have were only the second and third >14" Thinkpads I ever bought.

I personally like tight hinges. The toshiba I used at work tend to have very loose hinges where the LCD casing shakes back and forth.

I too like the tight hinges on my T41p. You do need to hold the base, but gosh it feels sturdy. Can't see why you'd want it any other way.

Kenn wrote:This "two-handed" hinge tightness is absolutely intentional and is almost a trademark of thinkpad design (save some of the X-series I've tried). They're designed to be strong, tight, and beefy, and many reviews point to this as a plus.

After using Dells for a number of years, I got absolutely sick of how the displays "flopped" - as someone said earlier, you often have to open the screen more to compensate for the play in the hinges. And often, even once open, you can tilt the screens over an inch before you feel the friction of the hinges "catch." I hate that behavior - you open the screen on a thinkpad and it stays where you set it to.

Even on my 3yo T42p, I still need 2 hands to open it. I have to admit, it's not really convenient sometimes, like when you need to open the hinge on your lap while holding a coffee, but IMO it's much better than having a saggy, floppy lip that requires constant overcompensation every time you want to adjust the angel a few mm!

And yes, over time the hinges do tend to loosen up a bit - IME it happens most with smaller 12-14" thinkpads, but the hinges always stay tighter and more "precise" than that of most other manufacturers.

again I love my new thinkpad but Toshiba has shown that it's very possible to make a hinge that holds position AND needs just one hand. there's no need to have a saggy display.

The stiffness and build quality (that I love) is a completely different issue then the tightness designed into the hinge.

It's pretty simple physics i would imagine. It's been years but i would guess a high-school physics class could calculate the load involved with the screen at any angle and then figure out what the coefficient of friction for the surfaces involved would be needed to hold position. And then you build the hinge to exert slightly more then that amount of friction (and account for wear and tear) and not tons more.

I think the thinkpad has a limitation that the battery is at the rear so to the coefficient required may be more then one hand will allow compared to the force put down on the base based on the leverage of the battery at the rear instead of the front. Myself- i think that's a good idea so you can use different sized batteries easily so I'll take the hinge 'downside'.

But again- just because you need one hand doesn't mean it's going to sag over time. Go play with a toshiba tecra and you'll see what I mean.

If it's not a physical impossibility because of the battery position and the lack of leverage that provides for the base then the hinge is over engineered plan and simple. It's like building a bridge- it's very easy to build some massive overbuilt bridge to span a river - but the good engineer figures out how to build just enough bridge to safely stay up forever without wasting materials, money, and energy building a bridge that is too hefty.

michaelk wrote: But again- just because you need one hand doesn't mean it's going to sag over time. Go play with a toshiba tecra and you'll see what I mean.

If it's not a physical impossibility because of the battery position and the lack of leverage that provides for the base then the hinge is over engineered plan and simple. It's like building a bridge- it's very easy to build some massive overbuilt bridge to span a river - but the good engineer figures out how to build just enough bridge to safely stay up forever without wasting materials, money, and energy building a bridge that is too hefty.

I should check out a Toshiba (haven't seen a recent one lately). If you use a Dell that's more than a couple of months old, and just rock the table it's on back and forth, the screen has enough play at the hinge where the top of the LCD will flap 1-3" without catching the friction of the hinge. It's bad enough that you have to move the screen over an inch before you you can even adjust it (because it's moving without moving the hinge).

I guess you can fix that without requiring 2-handed tightness. But I was on a bus once with a friend and we were both taking advantage of the free wifi. His unnamed-brand laptop would constantly move whenever the bus rocked on its suspension. The TP lid was rock-solid. Also happens if you're walking around hand-holding the laptops. For me, the stiffness outweighs the inconvenience of needing 2 hands

I have a 3 year old Toshiba Satellite and the hinges are crap. I have about a 1" 1/2 of flex! My T60 doesn't feel like the screen is going to fall off or flop away when I open it!! I love it.

chadwicktr wrote:I have a 3 year old Toshiba Satellite and the hinges are crap. I have about a 1" 1/2 of flex! My T60 doesn't feel like the screen is going to fall off or flop away when I open it!! I love it.

satellite are no longer (or never were?) the top of the line. You can buy satellites for 499 on sale. Just like you can't get a thinkpad for 499 you can't compare the quality of the low end competiion to a thinkpad. I'm talking about the business models from toshiba with the docking connectors like the old satellite PRO (I think those dies off about 5 years ago) or the current Tecra. As above we've used those basically exclusively at my small business for years and never had a problem. Stiff they are NOT but they also dont have floppy hinges. The stiffness is a big deal to me- I've had a few toshiba repairs on those higher line models with bad connections from the daughter boards to the motherboard and I'd guess the constant flexing is a big reason for that.

Honestly I've never owned a laptop that has the saggies- but i never buy low end stuff except the 'disposable' 499 flavor ones I buy my kids.

Kenn wrote: .... If you use a Dell that's more than a couple of months old, and just rock the table it's on back and forth, the screen has enough play at the hinge where the top of the LCD will flap 1-3" without catching the friction of the hinge. It's bad enough that you have to move the screen over an inch before you you can even adjust it (because it's moving without moving the hinge). ....

that WOULD drive me insane for sure. Sounds like real POS.

chadwicktr wrote:I have a 3 year old Toshiba Satellite and the hinges are crap.

Exactly the same as the Toshiba I have seen at work.

michaelk wrote:that WOULD drive me insane for sure. Sounds like real POS.

To be fair, Dells are made to be inexpensive. It's good to know the price premium for a thinkpad really does go somewhere useful.

unimorpheus wrote: I have seen several Toshibas, Compaq/HPs and Dells that need to have the lid opened past the desired angle to compensate for the play in the hinges. The hinge tightness is not limited to the 15.4" ThinkPads. My 15" T43p has to be opened with two hands. I definitely prefer the ThinkPad aluminum hinges over every other system I have seen.

Yeah they are so Rock Solid !

sylvain wrote:

unimorpheus wrote: I have seen several Toshibas, Compaq/HPs and Dells that need to have the lid opened past the desired angle to compensate for the play in the hinges. The hinge tightness is not limited to the 15.4" ThinkPads. My 15" T43p has to be opened with two hands. I definitely prefer the ThinkPad aluminum hinges over every other system I have seen.

Yeah they are so Rock Solid !

plus they are 'bling'

To confirm what everyone is saying, I think it's an issue of how the thinkpads are laid out. A big piece of the weight (the battery) is right at the hinge location. All that is in the front of most thinkpads is a hard drive, wireless card (on the T4x), and a couple (usually empty) card bays. There's barely even any motherboard in that area on my thinkpad (just directly underneath the wireless card).

I actually would probably rather have the hard drive and wireless card moved elsewhere, putting the battery weight up in front. Batteries barely even get warm when discharging at a normal rate (i.e. you aren't running folding@home on battery with cpu clock rate at 100%), even less so when plugged in and fully charged. The wireless card and hard drive, on the other hand, generate quite a bit of searing (non lap-friendly for men, especially considering the wireless card burnination is directly underneath the touchpad).

Then again, when carrying my thinkpad one-handed I always grab it on the hinge/battery side because it's the thickest and easiest to grip by design, and also definitely the strongest/sturdiest part of the chassis. If having a rigid chassis and hinges that don't ever get floppy comes at the cost of needing two hands to open the screen, oh well.

Hmm, on my (new) T60, I can open the lid one-handed to any angle. The hinges are extremely smooth. On my previous R52 and R51, the hinges are not so smooth and required two-handed operation. I much prefer the T60 and thought this is the way it should be. Aren't ThinkPads advertised as being able to be opened one-handedly? (The screen latch is on one side only.)

is your T60 widesceen or 4:3?