Thinkpads Forum

corsac wrote:(the forum rules say that it's questionable legality)

Well, all right, but rules are rules. Please don't post EPP prices.

There is a new 10% coupon for T6x again: USPTR61721 (Exp. 7/27)

I just tested that coupon and worked, but the previous coupon (7/20 - 7/22) also stacked up on top of Visa coupon, which ended up to be 15% in total. This one didn't allow staking.

hmm... I wonder if the stacking up of coupons was a mistake that someone at Lenovo fixed, I don't know about EPP.

I ordered my T61p with many options on 07/12/07 for $4092.47 including sales tax. Since then Lenovo dropped memory prices and I rebooked it on July 19th for $3,910.37 including sales tax. The ship date slipped from 07/31/07 to 08/21/07 with that rebook.

Today I cancelled the 07/12/07 order and reordered the exact same system using the coupon mentioned above. The ship date is now 08/28/07 and the total price delivered including sales tax is $3,669.18.

The savings using VISA were close but not as good as above. I couldn't stack them.

For the curious, the options include Vista Ultimate 32, 4gb 667MHz RAM and T7700, plus 7K100 drive, DVDwrite, TurboRAM, fingerprint reader, extra batteries and Lenovo camera and Office Small Business 2007 and four year TP protection warranty.

That's an 11% price drop in two weeks over the "sale" price I booked on 07/12/2007

Why would you not order 4 GB ram from say frys for ~220 and save a bunch of money ?
How much did lenovo charge for the ram ?

nurio wrote:hmm... I wonder if the stacking up of coupons was a mistake that someone at Lenovo fixed, I don't know about EPP.

i couldn't get it to apply to a cart when logged in under EPP.   looks like stacking isn't possible.

wearetheborg wrote:Why would you not order 4 GB ram from say frys for ~220 and save a bunch of money ?
How much did lenovo charge for the ram ?

The RAM from Lenovo is $560 to upgrade from 512MB to 4 GB (minus the checkout discount and plus the sales tax).

I could have done as you suggested. The RAM is a piece of cake to install. The Lenovo RAM at least has the four year TP protection and is guaranteed to work and match.

barrywohl wrote:The RAM from Lenovo is $560 to upgrade from 512MB to 4 GB (minus the checkout discount and plus the sales tax).

I could have done as you suggested. The RAM is a piece of cake to install. The Lenovo RAM at least has the four year TP protection and is guaranteed to work and match.

crucial has a lifetime warranty on theirs and only charges $129 per module plus tax.   theirs is also guaranteed compatible and carries a 30-day MBG just incase.   i've owned a dozen thinkpads since 1996 and have yet to buy a crucial module that didn't work in one of my systems.

on top of that, lenovo charges $209 per module if purchased separately, much less than if purchased with a thinkpad.

erik wrote: crucial has a lifetime warranty on theirs and only charges $129 per module plus tax. theirs is also guaranteed compatible and carries a 30-day MBG just incase. i've owned a dozen thinkpads since 1996 and have yet to buy a crucial module that didn't work in one of my systems.

So...Baryy, there is still another $250 to be saved here

wearetheborg wrote:So...Barry, there is still another $250 to be saved here

Good advice. I followed it and replaced the order exactly as before except with a single DIMM 1GB RAM (and one slot free.) Now the price is down to $3,173.10 with sales tax and shipping plus I need to buy a 2GB DIMM. I'll just get one 2GB DIMM and be fine at three gigabytes.

I knew 4 GB of Lenovo RAM was a waste both financially and operationally.

Any reason to buy 800Mhz? I think it is wasted in the T61 with Santa Rosa. Right? a 2GB 667 PC-2-5300 SDRAM 667 SODIMM is what I want.

I found the DIMM at Crucial for $136 plus shipping but I should probably wait till my ThinkPad ships to take advantage of the 30 day return privilege.

I assume you used the 10% off coupon AND used AMEX to get another 10% back ?

barrywohl wrote: I knew 4 GB of Lenovo RAM was a waste both financially and operationally.

Any reason to buy 800Mhz? I think it is wasted in the T61 with Santa Rosa. Right? a 2GB 667 PC-2-5300 SDRAM 667 SODIMM is what I want.

Lenovo T61s have no problem seeing all 4GB by either using a 64 bit OS or a 32 bit Windows + PEA (which is more of a workaround).

800Mhz will be a waste of money, Santa Rosa's fsb is 800Mhz, but the memory runs at 667Mhz:
http://compare.intel.com/pcc/showchart. ... ture=en-US

And if you are concerned about memory speed, you should actually get two identical memory modules - so they could work in dual channel mode.

nurio wrote:And if you are concerned about memory speed, you should actually get two identical memory modules - so they could work in dual channel mode.

So I should sell or otherwise use the 1GB DIMM and get two 2GB dimms?

Would two 1GB DIMMS be faster than a 1 plus a 2 if my system doesn't need the extra RAM?

Anyway, I didn't want to pass up on a 1GB system since I wanted to give Intel Turbo RAM a try.

barry, don't worry about dual channel memory.   you'll never notice the difference.

3gb (1gb + 2gb) will be perfectly fine on your thinkpad.   3gb will always allow your system to be faster than 2gb, dual channel or not.

turbo ram might be a waste at this point.   i have yet to see hard evidence of the 1gb modules being worthwhile.

erik wrote:barry, don't worry about dual channel memory. you'll never notice the difference.
.

I agree

erik wrote:barry, don't worry about dual channel memory.   you'll never notice the difference.

3gb (1gb + 2gb) will be perfectly fine on your thinkpad.   3gb will always allow your system to be faster than 2gb, dual channel or not.

turbo ram might be a waste at this point.   i have yet to see hard evidence of the 1gb modules being worthwhile.

Thanks! I'm curious about the Intel Turbo Ram. I've read the bad reviews and I know not all manufacturers are going with it. I'm hoping software improvements from Intel will come to make it work as "advertised."

erik wrote:barry, don't worry about dual channel memory.   you'll never notice the difference.

For basic computing usage such as web surfing, office tools... you are right, but when it comes to memory intensive applications such as Photoshop, Maya and some heavy Games, dual channel might be significant.
Here are some links regarding Dual vs. Single:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/nfo ... 2channels/
http://www.tcmagazine.info/articles.php ... rticle=128

barrywohl, your decision should be based on how you expect to use your laptop. If it is for basic usage, you would just be fine with 2GB+1GB.

erik wrote:turbo ram might be a waste at this point. i have yet to see hard evidence of the 1gb modules being worthwhile.

I agree with erik, and if one day it would prove to be useful you can get one today for ~$37 shipped

nurio wrote:And if you are concerned about memory speed, you should actually get two identical memory modules - so they could work in dual channel mode.

I took this route and ordered two Crucial 2GB SODIMMs today. $250 vs $560 (minus discount) from Lenovo, and I will still have a 1GB SODIMM extra.

I don't have experience with 32 bit Vista, but in case that your operating system doesn't see all the 4GB RAM out of the box, here are useful links on PEA:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/pl ... fault.mspx
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605

I personally prefer XP x64, which can see all 4GB natively. Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't have that as an option so I went with Vista Business 64. If you ever choose to switch 64 bit, I would recommend that you make sure that all the applications and peripherals that you work with are supported on Vista 64, otherwise it can be a nightmare!

barrywohl wrote:

nurio wrote:And if you are concerned about memory speed, you should actually get two identical memory modules - so they could work in dual channel mode.

I took this route and ordered two Crucial 2GB SODIMMs today. $250 vs $560 (minus discount) from Lenovo, and I will still have a 1GB SODIMM extra.

Oh and one more thing, just want to make myself clear, my intentions were not to convince to spend more money on RAM or to go with dual channel in that case. But more to lay down the possibilities on how to squeeze out more performance from your system - still keep in mind that not all applications will benefit from dual channel. Also for most users 3GB is more than enough!

I am not saying you should cancel 4GB order either, but just weigh your needs / financial capabilities and if you find that it is worth it, go with it.

wearetheborg wrote:Why would you not order 4 GB ram from say frys for ~220 and save a bunch of money ?
How much did lenovo charge for the ram ?

Changed order to 1 GB 1 SODIMM from Lenovo (for $40 more than 1/2 GB) and then just ordered 2 x 2 GB SODIMMs for $259 delivered. Thanks.

nurio wrote: Lenovo T61s have no problem seeing all 4GB by either using a 64 bit OS or a 32 bit Windows + PAE (which is more of a workaround)

I thought I read somewhere that Vista 32 bit has PAE (physical address extension) disabled and that you could use up to 3.25 gb of RAM with Vista 32 bit, but not until the BIOS permits it.

My Lenovo sales rep sent me this Microsoft Knowledge Base link to try to convince me that 4 GB would work on my new T61p, but I don't think it really says that. I did read that the BIOS on Dell computers enables up to 3.25 gb on a 4 gb system with a 32 bit OS, so I'm hoping Lenovo will too in time.

I'll find out.

PAE may be able to access the extra memory on a T61, but an application must be PAE (AWE) enabled in order to use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_Wi ... Extensions

tomh009 wrote:PAE may be able to access the extra memory on a T61, but an application must be PAE (AWE) enabled in order to use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_Wi ... Extensions

to quote wiki; "Address Windowing Extensions (AWE) is a Microsoft Windows Application Programming Interface that allows a 32-bit software application to access physical memory greater than 4GB."

we're only talking about accessing memory up to 4GB -- something that every 32-bit application can do.

The problem is that with a 32-bit OS, the I/O space is shared with physical memory, and takes away from that 4 GB address space. If that were not the issue, even the *60 series ThinkPads would be able to access the full 4 GB of physical memory.

Now, if you believe that PAE will enable apps will happily get the full 4 GB even with the I/O being there, I welcome you to try it. But given that the architecture of PAE is inherently a hack (8086 segment registers, anyone?), I'm certainly not about to spend my time doing that.

So here are my "justifications" for ordering the second 2 GB SODIMM and trying 4 GB.

1. Matching SODIMMS should allow dual channel.
2. A new bios should allow 3.25 GB.
3. I might upgrade from Vista Ultimate 32 to 64 within a year.
4. I can always sell or return the extra SODIMM.
5. It was only an additional $130.

I know that the cost of Vista Ultimate from Microsoft allows either 32 or 64 bit. I wonder if that is true for OEM Vista Ultimate.

As for the turbo-memory, I was in the same camp as you initially, thinking it was a small amount of money for potentially a good benefit, but I've since changed my mind.

Lenovo is charging you 40-50 bucks for that 1GB of flash. 512 for readyboost, 512 for readydrive.

But you can buy a 4GB Expresscard SSD for that same 50 bucks. For 80 bucks you can get an 8GB Expresscard SSD.

My point is, the price of flash is dropping like a rock. You can get 4x what Intel's TurboMemory gives you at the same price already. If you have the time to wait, it will only get better!

If you use turbomemory, you are not able to use another device for readyboost either, vista can only use one source at a time, so if you get a superfast usb flash drive or expresscard SSD, you'll have to disable turbomemory anyway to take advantage of it.


Also, for heaven's sake, you're getting 4GB of ram! You'll *never* see the improvements of turbomemory anyway!

erik wrote:

tomh009 wrote:

I believe that it should have said equal and greater then. Anyway, most 32 bit applications would not be able to use more than 2GB (half of 2^32) of physical memory without AWE support (or whatever architecture improvement the application has to go beyond 2GB), due to the Windows 32 / Application architecture. For instance as far as I know, Photoshop on a 32 bit with PAE enabled would still use 2GB of the 4GB.

But for my best understanding, multiple applications (that do not support PAE) with a total of 4GB RAM on a PAE enabled system, will be able to access 4GB of physical memory. It is not perfect, but I guess it is better than nothing, unless you can't boot your system due to driver conflicts with PAE.

barrywohl wrote: 1. Matching SODIMMS should allow dual channel.
3. I might upgrade from Vista Ultimate 32 to 64 within a year.
5. It was only an additional $130.

I agree with these three -- I was very close to getting 4 GB rather than 3 GB. But I'll do the bump later ...

nurio wrote:

erik wrote:

compatibility issues aside, PAE will split a 4GB (total) system in half; 2GB for apps and 2GB for the kernel.   the /3GB switch will split 3GB for apps and 1GB for the kernel.   /PAE + /3GB is necessary for both to happen.   without /PAE switched, a 4GB system will only address 3GB total, splitting it 1GB for apps and 2GB for the kernel.

it's a hack, we all know it.   but, it's the only way around this mess until we fully migrate to 64-bit OSs and drop 32-bit compatibility altogether.   from how i understand it, 32-bit compatibility will always eat up 1GB of a system's total memory without the /PAE switch.

anyway, i'm either going to keep running server 2003, run a vista 64 + XP dual boot, or buy a mac.   all i need anymore is illustrator, photoshop, lightroom, and office.   those are the apps that put food on my table.

if vista 64 had greater compatibility and/or we could put 8GB ram in our notebooks, none of this would be an issue for anyone here.

when my T61p arrives i will throw 4GB in it no matter what.   i'd like to see what happens in server 2003 with /PAE switched and running adobe design premium CS3.   my money is on being able to access 3.5GB or the full 4GB.   either one is better than the 2GB total of my current T42p.