Thinkpads Forum

Following six weeks of waiting, my T61 finally arrived Monday. After setting it up and using it for the last few days, I'm not at all impressed with the LCD screen on the unit I received.

I ordered a T61 (Type: 6377, Model: CTO) with a 14.1" WXGA LCD w/camera. According to the information I have from ThinkVantage, the FRU for the LCD installed in my machine is 42T0410. Oddly, neither my machine type or the FRU in the previous sentence are listed as possible LCD displays for any of the T61 series units, according to this page on the Lenovo website.

What I dislike about the LCD: It's way too bright--so much so that colors appear washed out and unnatural to someone that does a lot of Photoshop work (even if I turn the backlight all the way down). Colors are noticeably inferior to those produced by the 15" SXGA+ IPS panel in the T43 in my sig, even when looked at straight on. There is also quite a bit of light leakage along the bottom of the panel, not to mention the fact that blacks are not being rendered as true, deep blacks (instead they seem to come out a dark gray).

Now I'm curious about what I can do. I've already tried tinkering with the brightness, color, and gamma settings from the nVidia control panel but failed to yield much improvement. I realize that this is almost certainly a low-end TN panel (and that a direct comparison to an (S)IPS panel would not be fair), but I am curious if colors should still be reasonably close to accurate.

Now the big problem: Will Lenovo replace a screen like this if asked to? There are no dead or stuck pixels to report, but the problems with poor color rendering are driving me nuts. Also, does anyone know who manufactured this screen so that I can request a different FRU for replacement (As my machine type isn't even in the hardware maintenance manual, I'm at a loss as to what other LCD FRUs this system can accept).

P.S.: This system arrived with an Alps keyboard (FRU 42T3209) with a broken "Tab" key (it doesn't register when it's depressed). When I called support, they couldn't find the warranty info on my machine or even dig up the correct part number to send out for a replacement keyboard because (supposedly) they couldn't find the type 6377 machine type in their database. I gave them the FRU for the NMB variant of the keyboard (42T3143) and am anxiously waiting to see what DHL brings out tomorrow. Needless to say that since the support rep couldn't figure out what keyboard to send out on his own, I didn't even bother getting into the LCD issue at the time.

Not having people in the database right away is not an uncommon issue.

I think your right, comparing the FlexView to other notebook screens is a bit unfair. I haven't seen a T61 yet so unfortunately I can't be of much use on that issue.

well you're coming from a IPS monitor which is the best there is, you can't compare it to a "Normal" screen. You paid extra for the IPS before and you got what you wanted but now you have a normal one so you can't expect to get the same performance from the LCD. There is no longer a IPS option being offered so best you can do is calibrate it with those software thingys or buy another machine that has the LCD you want or live with it.

If the color quality on your LCD is really bothering you so much I would say return it within the 21 day period and order another one with IPS screen if that is available..Once you are over that period, you do not have any option other than to live with it.

Jason986 wrote:Colors are noticeably inferior to those produced by the 15" SXGA+ IPS panel in the T43 in my sig, even when looked at straight on. There is also quite a bit of light leakage along the bottom of the panel, not to mention the fact that blacks are not being rendered as true, deep blacks (instead they seem to come out a dark gray).

The color quality and dark grays are inherent in the display technology. There will be no better displays I'm afraid to say. The light leakage isn't inherent in the technology, but you still might not ever find a better panel with that FRU.

Jason986 wrote:I am curious if colors should still be reasonably close to accurate.

Really not close. You can use a calibrator, which may fix the hues, but the limited dynamic range will be a killer.

Jason986 wrote:Now the big problem: Will Lenovo replace a screen like this if asked to? There are no dead or stuck pixels to report, but the problems with poor color rendering are driving me nuts.

My guess is that there's no way they would. They don't have anything better that they'd be allowed to replace it with.

I think the best they would do is allow you to return the machine and give you a full allowance on one with a better display, like a T60/p with an IPS display. They might still have some they'd be willing to part with.

Jason, have you looked into display calibration?

Jason986 wrote:What I dislike about the LCD: It's way too bright--so much so that colors appear washed out and unnatural to someone that does a lot of Photoshop work (even if I turn the backlight all the way down). Colors are noticeably inferior to those produced by the 15" SXGA+ IPS panel in the T43 in my sig, even when looked at straight on.

Of course, TN technology is pure crap comparing to former IPS panels. T61 lcd panel is technologically ten years behind. No calibration can help. Horrible color rendering and poor contrast with uneven backlight is by design. There are no non-TN notebook display panels anymore on the market. People buys cheap crap, companies delivers cheap crap. No way ... no future.

skpsm wrote:If the color quality on your LCD is really bothering you so much I would say return it within the 21 day period and order another one with IPS screen if that is available..Once you are over that period, you do not have any option other than to live with it.

I'm reluctant to do a return and reorder given that it took them six weeks to deliver this machine--I don't have another six weeks to wait. Also, the IP screens have never been available on the 14.1" displays. Now that everything's gone to widescreen, I don't want to lug around a 15" widescreen unit.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Yes, I know that TN displays will never be able to equal the quality reached by IPS screens.

What I was most curious about though was whether my particular TN screen was worse than most TN screens. After having a chance to look over several coworkers 14.1" T43 and T60 machines today, I believe that the screen I received is noticeably inferior to most other TN displays.

Now that brings me back to the FRU question. Does anyone know who made this screen (or better yet what other LCD FRUs are compatible with my machine type)?

Thanks for the replies and I'll try to post some pictures of the display in question compared to my other ThinkPad later tonight.

Lenovo seems to get low quality TN panels. If you have a chance, compare it side-by-side with WSXGA+ or WUXGA 15.4" panels in latest HP models.

On the other hand probably nothing can be worse than X31 lcd panel

Join the club....I was pretty much willing to put up with the poor view angles and the light leakage at the bottom, but my wxga+ LG screen has a really bad sparkle effect that makes the screen very hard to look at...I've tried to use it for a couple weeks but I'm returning it

Doesn't surprise me... manufacturers seems to turn up the brightness on screens to get better contrast ratios and other figures. It is worrying how many complaints Lenovo screens are getting these days, however. I'm yet to receive my T61 and am expecting the worst. My T43 panel ain't great but then again I don't ask much of it.

However, I have to wonder why you are trying to do any serious photoshop work on a laptop TN panel at all. TN panels are notoriously inaccurate and hard to calibrate, especially with a laptop-grade backlight. I wouldn't even attempt to adjust a photo on anything other than an IPS or PVA panel, which these days means an external monitor.

Reading about the current state of LCD screens is depressing

The new LED backlighted ones should be great. But it doesn't look like Lenovo wants to be at the forefront of the new display technology.
Besides, I'm returning my T60 that came with a 15" IPS FlexView.
I have a completely opposite from the OP problem.
My FlexView is too dim.

Jason986 wrote: Now that brings me back to the FRU question. Does anyone know who made this screen (or better yet what other LCD FRUs are compatible with my machine type)?

Thanks for the replies and I'll try to post some pictures of the display in question compared to my other ThinkPad later tonight.

Download a program called "PC Wizard 2007." It should give you the model number and you can just google it to find the manufacturer.

By your description, stating that it is really bright and almost washes out the colors, my guess is going to be the LG/Phillip panel. It's definitely the preferred panel though.

unhooked wrote:The new LED backlighted ones should be great.

No, it does not change anything. It is still crappy TN panel technology just with different backlight. No colors, no contrast, no black color ...

acasto wrote:Reading about the current state of LCD screens is depressing

Yes, that's why I still keep my R51 15" SXGA+ IPS and try to extend the warranty as much as possible. I can't stand those horrible screens in new models, especially for its price. It is absolutely impossible to get a notebook with acceptable screen these days, even if you are willing to pay extreme price. That's called global economy

Puppy wrote:

unhooked wrote:The new LED backlighted ones should be great.

No, it does not change anything. It is still crappy TN panel technology just with different backlight. No colors, no contrast, no black color ...

I dont know man, my WUXGA 17" screen on a Dell precision M90 laptop is absolutely gorgeous. The blacks are black - important to me as I prefer working on a black background

wearetheborg wrote:

Puppy wrote:It is still crappy TN panel technology just with different backlight. No colors, no contrast, no black color ...

I dont know man, my WUXGA 17" screen on a Dell precision M90 laptop is absolutely gorgeous. The blacks are black - important to me as I prefer working on a black background

Puppy explained why:

Puppy wrote:Lenovo seems to get low quality TN panels. If you have a chance, compare it side-by-side with WSXGA+ or WUXGA 15.4" panels in latest HP models.

Jason986 wrote:Now that brings me back to the FRU question. Does anyone know who made this screen......snip

Samsung, LG Philips and AUO are supplying 14.1 WXGA lcd panels for T61/R61 to lenovo. However, your Machine Type is not listed yet.

Puppy wrote:

unhooked wrote:The new LED backlighted ones should be great.

No, it does not change anything. It is still crappy TN panel technology just with different backlight. No colors, no contrast, no black color ...

Have you seen the new TN screens? (not the crappy Lenovo screens.)
Yea, glossy, but with pretty good blacks and great colors.
And with whites that actually looks like white, not greyish white on a flexview!

acasto wrote:I can't stand those horrible screens in new models, especially for its price. It is absolutely impossible to get a notebook with acceptable screen these days, even if you are willing to pay extreme price. That's called global economy

Horrible screens in the new Lenovo models. What are they doing?
Other manufacturers seem to be getting much better screens.

unhooked wrote:And with whites that actually looks like white, not greyish white on a flexview!

Sorry, dude, but you got a bum FlexView if you think it is A) too dim and B) white isn't white.

-- Nathan

NathanA wrote:

unhooked wrote:And with whites that actually looks like white, not greyish white on a flexview!

Sorry, dude, but you got a bum FlexView if you think it is A) too dim and B) white isn't white.

I think it's an established fact that the SXGA+ Flexviews are dim by today's standards.
Woudln't you agree?

unhooked wrote:I think it's an established fact that the SXGA+ Flexviews are dim by today's standards.
Woudln't you agree?

I'd never heard that argument, and I haven't really ever gotten to look at an SXGA+ FlexView up close. (I've got a friend that has one from last December or so; I'll take a closer look at it next time I see him.) It might also depend on WHICH SXGA+ IPS display you got (who manufactured it). Do you recall ever looking that up for the unit you returned, or do you still happen to have the type/model and serial number of this unit so that we can look it up?

If I put my new T60p UXGA FlexView screen up next to my 21" Dell-branded Sony Trinitron CRT, the whites are pretty darn close.

-- Nathan

NathanA wrote: It might also depend on WHICH SXGA+ IPS display you got (who manufactured it).

The only SXGA+ FlexViews available from Lenovo are the ones made by LG.

unhooked wrote:The only SXGA+ FlexViews available from Lenovo are the ones made by LG.

Right, currently they are. My only point in talking about the fact that it might depend on which one you get is that it might explain why others who have the SXGA+ but purchased it before the BOE-Hydis displays ran out do not have the same complaint you do, if indeed your LG display is not an anomaly.

Also, given the fact that as recent as April Lenovo was selling more UXGA T60ps direct from their web site, I would not rule out the possibility that they still have some straggling stock of non-LG SXGA+ panels around that certain people may be getting, even today. Who knows?

-- Nathan

I found a proper calibaration of my new T61P screen using a spyder made a BIG difference.

Viewing angles aren't the best but straight on it's fine, and there's a bit of light leakage along the bottom but overall I like it better than my old T43P which was quite dim.

I'd suggest if your doing any kind of photo work you invest in some kind of calibration hardware as a first step.

unhooked wrote:I think it's an established fact that the SXGA+ Flexviews are dim by today's standards.
Woudln't you agree?

This is common for cheap TN panels. They are overbrighted without having corresponding contrast ratio. White color has better brightness but black color is grey and colors are washed out. It is like setting brightness to max and contrast to min on CRT monitor.

Puppy wrote:This is common for cheap TN panels. They are overbrighted without having corresponding contrast ratio.

So, are you implying that FlexView screens aren't as bright as TN panels? I've used five FlexView displays (three UXGA and two QXGA) and all of them were slightly dimmer than my 14.1" T60's non-FlexView SXGA+ screen.