T61p graphics problems

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generalsu · #31 Post by **generalsu** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:43 pm

I went to the Lenovo.com website to download PC Doctor for Windows, and they told me they have removed it for no reason.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-68876

That's the link to PC Doctor on Lenovo.com.

As for the 1 DIMM removal, I don't think I want to open up my laptop which will void my warranty.

So basically, it all comes down to a hardware problem? I've only had this laptop for a month, and it's already defective? Wow, thank God for IBM.

Hellbore · #32 Post by **Hellbore** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:47 pm

Opening your laptop to remove the RAM does NOT void your warranty!!!

generalsu · #33 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:45 am

I also did memtest86+ for over 10 hours and found no errors.

generalsu · #34 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:39 am

So how do I open the laptop to remove the dual channel? Which screw do I unscrew?

Pocket Aces · #35 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:46 am

Just save yourself some trouble and turn it in for repairs. It's the only way to fix the problem, unless you want to only use 1 DIMM for the rest of the computer's life.

generalsu · #36 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:20 am

So Pocket Aces, you had yours turned in for repair, and now everything works fine?

#37 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:28 am

generalsu wrote:So how do I open the laptop to remove the dual channel? Which screw do I unscrew?

Item #8 in the FAQ.

generalsu · #38 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:21 pm

I just did a full system test with PC Doctor 5 and everything passed. I called the Lenovo Tech Support, and they told me that if my system passed all the PC Doctor test, then it's not a hardware problem. So if I did send it in for repair, they would not fix it or would not know how, because according to PC Doctor from Lenovo, my hardware is fine.

Right now, I am playing Half Life 2 Episode Two, and within 2 minutes, the game will freeze with artifacts, and I would have to end task for the game. This is with the latest video driver version 156.79 which is 100% compatible with my nVidia Quadro FX 570m.

I am going to try the latest video driver 169.04 and see if it improves or fixes the problem.

Pocket Aces · #39 Post by **Pocket Aces** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:48 pm

generalsu wrote:So Pocket Aces, you had yours turned in for repair, and now everything works fine?

yes

generalsu · #40 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:41 pm

Anyways, I removed 1 DIMM and I could play Half Life 2 - Episode Two for over an hour. So this looks good. Going to do more test and see what I find... Thanks rayman.

Hellbore · #41 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:32 pm

They said if it passes PC Doctor it's not a hardware problem? They are full of crap, the problem you are describing is starting to become more and more well-known.

I have been working to try and make people aware of this issue. There seems to be some kind of hardware issue with the T61P line, I think it is limited to the motherboard that has the Quadro FX 570M. Most people with this problem have 4 gigs of RAM but the main factor seems to be having 2 sticks of RAM. We are not sure if it only happens with 2 2gb sticks of RAM.

If you want to see a long history of this problem along with other people's accounts of the same problem, see these threads:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=181232
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=179172

FYI, this issue has not been resolved for me yet by Lenovo.

I sent in my laptop to the depot, they were NOT ABLE to fix it, they escalated it twice, and now the laptop has actually been sent to the design engineers who are working on identifying this issue and looking for a fix.

Others in the past have reported that they had this issue, sent it to the depot, got a motherboard swap, and the issue was fixed.

Right now might not be the best time to send it to the depot though, they seem to be having trouble getting motherboards that work lately.

I put together a spreadsheet of 11 people I have communicated with who all have T61P's, with the Quadro FX 570M, and are getting these type of crashes in games. There were all kinds of OS's including Vista, XP, and Linux. One thing they all had in common was that removing 1 stick of RAM made the issues go away. This definitely sounds like a hardware issue but Lenovo has not yet put this issue in their database as a known issue apparently. I was told my Mark Hopkins at Lenovo that they have their engineers working on this issue right now, so hopefully in the near future they will have this issue identified and a solution for it. HOPEFULLY but who knows.

I tend to think this issue is a hardware issue that is somehow related to assembly or quality control, and here's why: some people with t61P's and the quadro 570M seem to not have this problem, and others who had this problem got a new motherboard and the problem was gone. But the biggest thing that makes me think this is my own experience. My first T61P had this problem and when I sent it to the depot I was given a loaner T61P to use while I waited. Good thing, because it has now been 22 DAYS since they received my laptop at the depot, so I have been without it for about 25 days now. If I didn't have this loaner I would be majorly [censored] right now. Anyways, the loaner laptop was having the same type of crashes as my original laptop, and just like the original, the issues went away when 1 stick of RAM was removed.

However, this is the crazy part, at one point I took the laptop apart to measure the temperature at the CPU, GPU, south bridge, video RAM, etc. I removed the palm rest and keyboard. I did make a minor adjustment to a thermal pad on top of the GPU because it was off-center. After re-assembling the laptop, it never crashed again. It has been almost a week now and the laptop has NOT crashed again. I didn't change anything else.

So why is it stable now? This wasn't the first, second, or even third time I re-seated the RAM. I changed the ram lots of times before this while testing. It makes me wonder if maybe there is some part in the computer that has a cold solder joint or bad connection or something, I have no idea.

So as far as I know, this issue is still a mystery, but it is a very real issue and lots of us are having this problem. I am really tired of people trying to fluff it off and act like there's not a problem when there are so many of us now.

Are you having this problem? If you want to help make sure this issue gets the attention it deserves and make sure Lenovo fixes it, please email xxxxxxxx@us.lenovo.com and let him know you are another T61P owner who is having this problem.

They need to fix this issue and not pretend it doesn't exist! I think they are working on it now but who knows.

Note from Moderator: Don't post names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, etc here without the person's permission.

Hellbore · #42 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Oh by the way - Here is the Easyserv status page for my repair, as of today.

This is what could happen to you if you send your laptop to the depot for repair right now when they apparently don't have this issue figured out! Look at this, scary...

OS 11/08/2007 14:37:00 M Machine being repaired
HP 10/30/2007 12:35:00 M Hold for Parts - Service call is on hold until parts arrive, estimated at: None provided
BO 10/30/2007 12:35:00 M The last status applied was backed off
OS 10/25/2007 14:36:00 M Machine being repaired
OS 10/25/2007 14:36:00 M Machine being repaired
HP 10/23/2007 08:54:00 M Hold for Parts - Service call is on hold until parts arrive, estimated at: None provided
HP 10/23/2007 08:50:00 M Hold for Parts - Service call is on hold until parts arrive, estimated at: None provided
BO 10/23/2007 08:50:00 M The last status applied was backed off
OS 10/22/2007 04:07:00 M Machine being repaired
AK 10/16/2007 23:31:00 M Airborne processing request to ship container
AK 10/16/2007 18:54:00 M Airborne processing request to ship container

...And there is no end in sight. I have been told I would just be given a new T61P but I haven't been told how long it will take or given an order number, I haven't even been told if the new one has been ordered yet. I haven't been given any kind of guarantee that the new one won't have the exact same problem the old one had... because they don't even know what the problem is yet or how widespread it is. My only consolation is that I have a loaner T61P, but it has a slower CPU than the one I originally ordered, so I'm not getting the benefit of the higher performance CPU which I paid A LOT EXTRA for.

This is definitely an issue with T61P's and I think there should be some kind of sticky or something until this issue has been figured out and/or resolved by Lenovo. A lot of T61P owners have put a lot of time and effort into trying to find work-arounds to no avail, the only thing that has consistently worked is removing 1 stick of RAM. I think you will see more and more people with this issue as more people order T61P's with 4 gigs of RAM.

Razzle · #43 Post by **Razzle** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:30 pm

here's one more reporting in.... haven't tried anything with the ram yet but the issue is exactly as described by others.
3D apps make either the app or the complete t61p crash without warning after some time.
Using 2 GB Ram (2 sticks), T7800 cpu, WinXP. The GPU core temperatures are around 78°C/172.4°F and CPU cores around 70°C/158°F under maximum load.

The only thing that prevented crashes so far was reducing the CPU performance to low in power management settings.
If not for the RAM reports, I'd guess this is a cooling problem with the GPU overheating. Especially because of the artifacts.

I'm pretty annoyed, considering that t61p's are marketed for performance and their price this issue shouldn't exist..

Hellbore · #44 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:42 pm

Razzle wrote:here's one more reporting in.... haven't tried anything with the ram yet but the issue is exactly as described by others.
3D apps make either the app or the complete t61p crash without warning after some time.
Using 2 GB Ram (2 sticks), T7800 cpu, WinXP. The GPU core temperatures are around 78°C/172.4°F and CPU cores around 70°C/158°F under maximum load.

The only thing that prevented crashes so far was reducing the CPU performance to low in power management settings.
If not for the RAM reports, I'd guess this is a cooling problem with the GPU overheating. Especially because of the artifacts.

I'm pretty annoyed, considering that t61p's are marketed for performance and their price this issue shouldn't exist..

Yeah I bet you are annoyed... I sure have been.

You could email xxxxxxxx@us.lenovo.com about this, it would help get the issue more attention. He has more authority than the average customer support rep and I THINK he is on our side and wants to help us.

Before you do that, I would really appreciate if you could try removing 1 stick of RAM and see if that makes your problem go away. It would just help to make sure you don't have a different issue than the rest of us.

So far the "remove 1 stick of ram and the problem goes away" thing has been the only sure-fire way to identify this issue, that I know of.

#45 Post by **JaneL** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:27 pm

I already told you once in the previous message upthread not to post someone's contact information without their permission. Don't do it again.

From the Rules of the Road:

6. Respect the privacy of others. Do not post other's phone numbers, addresses, pictures, etc., without their express permission.

Razzle · #46 Post by **Razzle** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:18 am

I couldn't get myself to remove the RAM yet (it doesn't void my warranty if i open the tp or does it?) but I did some more testing.
Reading through the threads that were linked earlier, I tried the suggestion of disabling PowerMizer and this did actually have an effect for me.
I could only reproduce the artifacts and incorrect textures once since then, no crashes so far.
This might point towards a driver problem, at least in my case if not for the nature of the effect.. artifacts and texture problems are often associated with overclocking which results in overheating and this looks a bit like that. Still, doesn't explain why disabling PowerMizer changed anything.

It's still not solved though in my eyes, didn't have the time to let wow run for a longer time yet and disabling a feature doesn't sound like a fix to me, more like a workaround.

One more thing I noticed: before I disabled PowerMizer, the GPU core and memory bus speeds were reduced by about half at exactly the time when the problems occured. This did not happen now.

Here's the two lines from one of the incidents, taken from the RivaTuner log:

Code: Select all


#, date,         Core clock \ ROP domain,Core clock \ shader domain,Memory clock        ,Core temperature    ,CPU0 temperature    ,CPU1 temperature    
80, 08-11-2007 21:18:29, 513.000             ,1026.000            ,702.000             ,78.000              ,70.000              ,70.000              
80, 08-11-2007 21:18:33, 297.000             ,594.000             ,300.856             ,75.000              ,70.000              ,70.000

generalsu · #47 Post by **generalsu** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:59 am

Hellbore, I read all your history and posts regarding the hell you went through with your T61p repair at the depot. I've come up with something:

The T61p uses the Intel Mobile PM965 Express Chipset, which is the latest btw. It supports 2 SO-DIMMs or dual channel but only at 533MHz. Both of my 1GB RAM Stick are 667MHz, thus the clock speed overload for the memory when in dual channel mode. Again, when I took one RAM stick out, the games run fine. The only problem now is I can't run Stranglehold anymore, because that game requires 2GB RAM.

I had a workaround on this issue by setting the power usage for the CPU at balanced in the BIOS settings. This method made the games last longer, but it would eventually crash or spurt out graphical artifacts.

Another issue was with the Dual core nature of the new Core 2 Duo processors. Running most of the games with multiple core support enabled caused most games to run too fast and then crash with a BSOD memory parity error. I have yet to encounter a game that runs with Dual core successfully. I will be trying that with Half Life 2 - Episode Two, since that particular game is designed with Dual core support. So right now, I am always on single core when playing games.

I tested out the BurnInTest software you mentioned, followed your instructions word by word and got a PASSED even with dual channel memory enabled.

This is quite a mystery problem that you and other people are facing. Again, it only happens when I play games, otherwise this T61p of mine is very stable.

Razzle: Someone here said removing and opening the laptop does not void the warranty. I am not so sure about it.

I am now going to do a BurnInTest with high resolution and widescreen to see what happens with the dual channel memory mode.

generalsu · #48 Post by **generalsu** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:18 pm

Hellbore, I got news for you. I removed both RAM Sticks and inserted one on the northbridge and guess what? A hard boot yields no problem, but a soft boot cause the system to hang with a 1-3-3-1 beep. This is exactly the problem you described on the other forum.

I did a BurnInTest at 1680x1050 with dual channel memory, and the system spurted out artifacts. I did the same test again with just one memory stick, and it PASSED.

I am thinking this is not just some personal issue. I believe the recent T61p laptops manufactured between September to now all have this hardware defect. I have no idea if they have fixed this issue or not yet, but it all sounds too familiar with your loaner laptop and your original laptop. Now, as you said, most people aren't complaining about this issue, because it only happens when running an intensive 3D app or game and most people simply don't do that. But then, the T61p is built and marketed as a 3D workstation and development system, so I would imagine T61p owners do run 3D intensive apps. Otherwise most people doing everyday stuff would just buy the regular T61.

But anyhow, Lenovo should be aware of this issue especially on the T61p systems, since they are designed for 3D stuff.

I will try to email the Mark guy from Lenovo and see what he has to say.

Hellbore, if you got any recent news about this issue, please update us on this. As for your original laptop, is it fixed yet? Thank God I read this forum and came across people like yourself, otherwise I would have sent my laptop in for repair and waited for 2 months!

Razzle · #49 Post by **Razzle** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:05 pm

hm my tp just turned itself off again, guess it just takes a bit longer with the PowerMizer turned off.

specularius · #50 Post by **specularius** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:00 pm

Chalk another one up to this problem. My 6459-CTO that I received 11/12 will intermittenly shut off with 2 1gig ram's installed. That is without running any graphic intensive programs. Dock it in the advanced mini dock and it is completely unusable, shuts down after about 90 seconds. I pulled one ram stick out and it is running fine, no shutdowns and that is with it docked. There is deffinately a hardware conflict going on. My machine was made 11/08/2007 and the ram sticks have that date on them. I hope Lenovo can fix this problem.

generalsu · #51 Post by **generalsu** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:40 am

That is definitely a more severe problem. I was right, I did suspect even the most recently manufactured T61p has some kind of hardware problem. I email Lenovo, and they are apparently working on testing this issue. They even have no idea what the actual problem is.

Razzle · #52 Post by **Razzle** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:48 pm

another interesting thing i noticed:
limiting the game to 1 cpu core allowed me to run without problems for 4 hours - alt-tabbing out (e.g. to read web pages), which put the 2nd core to work, resulted in graphical glitches when tabbing back into game a few times though. Those resolved themselves after a while without tabbing though.

tyito2000 · #53 Post by **tyito2000** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 pm

eom...

Hellbore · #54 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 am

tyito2000 wrote:I just received a T61 and have had the same issues with hanging. I have several years of hard core IT consulting experience and may have localized the problem. I worked on the issue over the weekend and believe it is related to Vista's OS. I think the issue could be resolved within Vista. My T61 is now stable (with 2 sticks of memory). I need to do more testing and may have a solution soon.

Tom

Thinkpad T61 (6457-6du) T7500 2.2 ghz, 2 gb ram, 100 gb 7200 HDD, Nvidia Quadro NVS-140M 128 mb, Vista Ultimate

That would be great if you do find a solution. I'm skeptical though because people have had these issues on XP and Linux as well, so I don't see it being a Vista issue.

Also, the T61P I am using right now to type this message was having these problems for a while, but after one of the times I took it apart and put it back together, it stopped crashing and hasn't crashed since then. It has been about a week now without crashes and I didn't make any software changes, so I tend to think there might be a hardware issue but I'm really guessing.

I'm excited to hear about your results though, please keep us posted!

tyito2000 · #55 Post by **tyito2000** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:51 am

eom...

Hellbore · #56 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:28 pm

tyito2000 wrote:Don't be too skeptical. The approach resolves the problem, including cross platform issues.

Well tell us what it is then! lol... You'll be my hero if you find a solution, and you'll be ahead of Lenovo, they haven't found one yet.

tyito2000 · #57 Post by **tyito2000** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:43 pm

eom...

generalsu · #58 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:12 pm

Just to be on the same ball game here, are we still referring to the 2 stick RAM memory freezing issue when running 3D intensive apps or games?

As for my update, I got a 1 2GB RAM stick, and now everything works fine. All my games run as smooth as silk and I just recently completed Half Life 2 - Episode Two without any hang ups or bizarre graphical artifacts spurting out even though the GPU temp reached as high as 75C to 80C, which is normal I think.

tyito2000, if you can find the solution to the dual channel memory problem, you'd be my hero as well.

HellBore, Mark from Lenovo emailed me and said that your loaner laptop does not have the dual channel memory issue. I am wondering if that's the case.

I will try the IE test and see if that solved the dual channel memory problem.

generalsu · #59 Post by **generalsu** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:17 pm

Just did a test with IE reset using dual channel memory, and it still crashed with graphical artifacts. I am using the BurnInTest, btw.

Hellbore · #60 Post by **Hellbore** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:46 pm

tyito2000 wrote:... the most common ingredient is corrupt IE7 code. Corrupt IE7 code can affect the entire operating system.

The solution would be to go to IE7's Tools/Internet Options/Advanced, and reset IE7. ..

wtf?

I don't see what this has to do with 3D games crashing, especially since this is also happening to LINUX users (I kinda doubt Linux users are running IE7).

I think you must be looking at a different problem than the rest of us.

T61p graphics problems

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