Thinkpads Forum

He's using a T61, that's probably why.

generalsu wrote:He's using a T61, that's probably why.

His sig says he has the Nvidia Quadro NVS which only comes on the T61P 14" version.

He probably ordered a T61 like me and chose the Nvidia graphics, which means what you end up getting is actually a T61P, even if you didn't select T61P initially.

I doubt his problem is the same as ours, his is probably a different issue... however, if he does have the same problem as us then it would be the first I have heard of from a Quadro NVS 140 owner [14" version of T61P]... ALL of the others were with the Quadro 570M [15.4" version of T61P].

Glad I'm not completely alone...

I got my T61P with the Quadro 570m and two 1GB RAM modules the beginning of November, originally with Vista. I couldn't get anything but UT2004 to run for any reasonable amount of time, so I downgraded to XP (pro). Now, after one or two failed installs (for unrelated reasons, like USB...), I have more games running *less horrendously* on XP (as compared to Vista). Still, though, after some time less than an hour, most games either freeze up or, in the case of Splinter Cell in particular, power off the computer altogether. No shutdown sequence or anything... one moment on, the next moment off.

I haven't been using the computer too extensively (I don't consider *trying* to play yesteryear's games "extensive"), but I don't think the computer has crashed during normal use yet. I've run the PC BurnIn thing, and it turned up positive... I suppose I'll try memtest now, but I'm not all that hopeful (of course, I'm looking for some signs of hardware failure). I've also tried turning off PowerMizer and dual core support, and fiddling with the power management settings... nothing seems to help.

I bought a fancy 3-year warranty with the accident protection, so I'm very hesitant about removing a RAM module myself. Besides, 1 GB isn't *too* luxurious. Does anyone have any suggestions? More specifically, do I need to be able to reproduce the problem with a benchmark program or somesuch before Lenovo will take it in for repairs? Only the oldest games are playable... :-(

Also, I'm not quite as averse to waiting as others... I just want to get the darned thing fixed. The main reason I bought it was probably to play games and fool around with 3D stuff (my old computer could handle most of the rest), so if it can't do that, I essentially just wasted $2K.

Well, I had the same exact problem as everyone else. Got this new T61P this month. And I was told that Lenovo is working on a solution. I hope they will come up with something soon. The problem seems wide spread, so I'm wondering if they will do a recall if it's hardware related, which at this moment seems to be the case.

Oh and Hellbore, did lenovo finally fix your laptop yet? If so, I'm sending mine in.

cjmay, you will have to remove one SO-DIMM from your system, if you want to run 3D apps and games smoothly without hiccups. Opening your laptop and removing a module does not void your warranty. If you are really hesitant, your only choice is to send it in for repair and have a technician remove it for you.

I personally think this is a severe hardware problem, since the T61p is designed for 3D.

The Quadro may not be designed for gaming, but it is more powerful than the GeForce line of cards, so it should have more than enough power to handle games.

so probably the problem is the specific type auf memory ? did you tried another brand =?

I tried the samsung brand, and still the same effect. BurnInTest failed.

Well, maybe it's not the solution. However, I have had the identical issues like everyone else. Even the 3D hardware vertex test crashes. However, after working through the issues, my laptop has not hanged once. Even with 3D open gl games.

Moreover, my T61 uses the identical GPU chipset as the 570M. The driver is the same for both the 140M and 570M. I have also tried the latest GPU drivers (7.15.11.0155 and 7.15.11.5666) and both are stable.

Since all of the diagnostics tests do not reveal any problems with the hardware, I believe this is an operating system issue. Also, there are several reports of owners with stable machines who have lately encountered the problem. Again, this would indicate an OS or update issue. Anyways, the fix that I posted earlier did not work for a few of you. As I explained, I was still testing the OS.

Tom

Have those having all the problems tried the Forceware 163.75 drivers? These are the latest non-beta drivers direct from Nvidia. These seem to work the best for me.

You need to add this line to the appropriate section of the nv_disp.inf file for it to install:
%NVIDIA_G84.DEV_040C.1% = nv_NV3x, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_040C&SUBSYS_20D917AA

64 bit drivers: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x64_163.75.html

I have used the latest GeForce driver 169.04 and the games still crashes. I told you guys, it's not the video driver issue, it's the memory or the RAM controller. Bottom line, it's a hardware thing.

tyito2000 wrote:Well, maybe it's not the solution. However, I have had the identical issues like everyone else. Even the 3D hardware vertex test crashes. However, after working through the issues, my laptop has not hanged once. Even with 3D open gl games.

Moreover, my T61 uses the identical GPU chipset as the 570M. The driver is the same for both the 140M and 570M. I have also tried the latest GPU drivers (7.15.11.0155 and 7.15.11.5666) and both are stable.

Since all of the diagnostics tests do not reveal any problems with the hardware, I believe this is an operating system issue. Also, there are several reports of owners with stable machines who have lately encountered the problem. Again, this would indicate an OS or update issue. Anyways, the fix that I posted earlier did not work for a few of you. As I explained, I was still testing the OS.

Tom

I dunno, little of what you say makes sense to me. How can you believe an Internet Explorer setting is the cause of a hardware instability that ONLY occurs when both sticks of RAM are in, AND also occurs on Linux? Linux doesn't even have IE plus IE has nothing to do with 3D gaming.

Furthermore, you're trying to say it doesn't make a difference having the quadro 570 vs. the 140?
The 140 has 16 pipelines, the 570 has 32
The 140 has a 64-bit memory bus, the 570 has 128-bit
More compellingly, EVERY other user I have found (around 15 so far) who is reporting this same problem, has had the Quadro FX 570M. Who cares if the driver is the same? The driver is the same for all the modern Nvidia cards. That means nothing if there is a hardware issue with the 570.

Then you say "Since all of the diagnostics tests do not reveal any problems with the hardware".. that it's not a hardware issue. I strongly disagree! Those diagnostic tests only test basic functionality in a go/no go way, they don't even attempt to test the system under load. These tests don't stress the system they only test whether the basic functionality is working. Plus, they don't attempt to test the higher-level functionality and instructions such as those hardware optimizations used for DirectX. Those cheezy diagnostics tests are far from a conclusive way of determining that the system will remain stable when actually being used.

There's no point arguing about it though, Lenovo is working on a solution and hopefully they will find something and then we'll know what the problem was... HOPEFULLY....

I had problems with the 169.04 drivers, but they are beta so not too unexpected. I also read of others having problems with the 169.04 drivers too. The 163.75 seem to be the most stable so you might want to try those.

Let's face it, The T61/p is full of problems and issues, not to mention sound driver issue. Here's the list:

1. 3D games and apps issue
2. Sound driver Stereo Mix issue
3. Volume Control issue

I don't just play 3D games. I record music as well. The sound card included doesn't work with ASIO and stereo mix is disabled on purpose.

The volume control is not so much an issue, but many people prefer hardware based volume control.

eom...

tyito2000 wrote:Just thought I would update you guys. 3dMark06 and BurnIn ran without a hitch.

Tom

With what kind of configuration?

FYI, mine ran 3DMark06 and BurnInTest smoothly as well, but with only 1 stick of memory. Same old problem.

I called Lenovo tech support on Friday and explained the issue. The techs kept mumbling about "software" somesuch... I was planning on letting them run the standard gamut of diagnostics, and then I would start to be more assertive (in regards to what the problem is definitely *not* - namely, *software*).

Before I had the chance to even *start* my lovingly-prepared speech, though, I found myself arranging for my laptop to be picked up and taken to the depot. I'm under the impression that the techs thought it was strictly a software issue, but I'm hopeful that the depot people (hopefully somewhat more intelligent?!) will find the actual problem (or at least replace the motherboard in exasperation).

The shipping box is slated to arrive on Monday, so I'm happy about the speed of service, at least (if somewhat unsure about the quality).

My pessimistic side just priced a high quality, compatible 2GB memory module on NewEgg for about $80 before rebates... it's nothing too trivial, but prices sure have come down in the past few years... :-\

My repair box is arriving Tuesday, but I am hesitant in sending in for repair, since according to this forum, the problem I am having has not been resolved yet.

The problem with Thinkpads locking up on intensive graphics (such as games) also happened on the T60P and in my case (and many others) occurred when dual ram was installed which whilst equal in size was perhaps from a different batch number or different manufacturers. The cure in that case seemed to be get identical memory chips from the same batch, same manufacturer.
The problem with the T61P seems to be the same - looks to be like a basic hardware/firmware problem which is too sensitive to slight timing differences between memory chips.
Since I switched to two identical 1GB memory chips I have had no re-occurrence of this problem on on T60P. Guess I will hold off ordering a T61P until Lenovo have solved the problem.

scillyisles wrote:The problem with Thinkpads locking up on intensive graphics (such as games) also happened on the T60P and in my case (and many others) occurred when dual ram was installed which whilst equal in size was perhaps from a different batch number or different manufacturers. The cure in that case seemed to be get identical memory chips from the same batch, same manufacturer.
The problem with the T61P seems to be the same - looks to be like a basic hardware/firmware problem which is too sensitive to slight timing differences between memory chips.
Since I switched to two identical 1GB memory chips I have had no re-occurrence of this problem on on T60P. Guess I will hold off ordering a T61P until Lenovo have solved the problem.

I don't think that's the reason. I had this problem with TWO different matched dual-channel RAM pairs. Both were a pair of sticks that were from the same batch and such intended for use as dual channel. The second pair was a Lenovo dual-channel pair. Same manufacturing date and everything. They are specificallly for dual channel use.

That's what I been keep trying to say... I order my T61p with 2 1GB sticks from the same firm, the result? CRASHED. I then bought a 1 2GB stick from Samsung and used it with one of my 1GB stick totaling 3GB, and the result? CRASHED.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter what manufacture the RAM sticks are. You stick in 2 memory cards in your T61p, and 3D apps will crash.

Since I had this same crashing problem, I called the tech support a couple of days ago. They insist that it's a software problem since the machine passed all test in PC Doctor. Finally, one guy said there's nothing they can do other than having my machine shipped to depot for repair. However, I wanted to wait and see if sending it in for repair will really solve any problems. The feed back I got from other forum is that the same issue happens on some T60s too. So it's not new.

Erik, I looked at your machine's config. and I'm wondering if you had the same problem as we do.

I have not seen such an issue yet with my T61P:

nvidia discrete graphics
4GB
Vista 64
Latest drivers from lenovo.com

What is installed:

AVG Anti Virus
OpenOffice

Other are small utils not worth mentioning.

I tested the machine by leaving it running overnight with Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 (with maximum settings); there were no issues.

I did see some small things, such as delayed repainting of the screen, but this was not an issue with the game itself, but rather a separate program that I was using.

Tonight I plan to do the same test with MS FS X and any other game that I can find that can tax my machine, just so I make sure there isn't anything wrong with the setup before I start using it in 'full production' mode

Well, my system is finally stable now. With 4GB on the T61p, I have no problems playing FSX, Tabula Rasa, and other games.

The key?
1) Turbo memory is utterly broken with the obsolete drivers (v1004) on the Lenovo website. Download the latest drivers from Intel (v1013). These also have the benefit of making a NOTICABLE improvement in response time. Lockups, and bluescreens go away..with one unrelated exception in #3.

2) Obtain, by any means necessary, Vista SP1. Its a release candidate now, but makes a huge difference in stability, and performance.

3) Don't use the middle mouse button to scroll. For some reason, it appears that the trackpoint driver likes to crash when using the middle mouse button to scroll while a web page is rendering. Symptoms are trackpoint stops working, but you can still move the pointer with the trackpad. Unfortunately system starts degrading heavily at that point and eventually crashes.

4) Use the 156.66 nvidia drivers from Windows Update. The old 101.45 drivers from Lenovo are seriously backlevel and will crash with many games. Do NOT use the laptopvideo2go drivers, they are NOT designed for Nvidia mobile processors.

Lenovo MUST provide timely driver updates to prevent this happening in the future.

Proteus wrote: 2) Obtain, by any means necessary, Vista SP1. Its a release candidate now, but makes a huge difference in stability, and performance.

3) Don't use the middle mouse button to scroll. For some reason, it appears that the trackpoint driver likes to crash when using the middle mouse button to scroll while a web page is rendering. Symptoms are trackpoint stops working, but you can still move the pointer with the trackpad. Unfortunately system starts degrading heavily at that point and eventually crashes.

I would caution against using SP1; I have heard mixed stories of totally unreliable systems (had to re-install) to strange hangups and other annoyances. Bottom line, its a release candidate and there is a reason why Microsoft is only releasing it to beta testers.

About the trackpad -- did you say while a web page is rendering, if so this sounds like a problem with your browser (you didn't mention which one, but I hazard its IE) and not trackpoint itself, although once you throw SP1 RC in there, (any|every)thing is possible.

Proteus wrote: 4) Use the 156.66 nvidia drivers from Windows Update. The old 101.45 drivers from Lenovo are seriously backlevel and will crash with many games. Do NOT use the laptopvideo2go drivers, they are NOT designed for Nvidia mobile processors.

Lenovo MUST provide timely driver updates to prevent this happening in the future.

Did these drivers detect your card automatically, or did you have to add the PCID line to the .inf?

Agree on the second point re: lenovo and updated drivers.

I thought I had a problem with my nvidia drivers because MS FS X would start flicking uncontrollably to the point where it was unplayable; so while I was downloading the driver update, I searched the KB and found this article which described my problem and there was a patch that fixed it. So the moral here is search the KB before you resort to updating drivers as it might be a known issue (as in my case).

Proteus wrote:Well, my system is finally stable now.

So do you have the same crash/shut down/BSOD before you installed the latest turbo memory driver?

I should first add that I had the same problems people here are reporting, before my changes. Also note that I am using Vista x64 ultimate, on a "clean build" with only the following Thinkvantage utilities installed:
Active protection (APS)
Client security (CSS)
Keyboard customizer
Power manager

The others duplicate functionality already built into Vista Ultimate, so aren't needed. Note that I'm very happy with Lenovo for providing them..and making sure all are x64 compatible. I just wish more stability testing of the driver stack would have taken place first. Intel Turbomem driver should have never been released in its original state.

burhan wrote: I would caution against using SP1; I have heard mixed stories of totally unreliable systems (had to re-install) to strange hangups and other annoyances. Bottom line, its a release candidate and there is a reason why Microsoft is only releasing it to beta testers.

SP1 RC has been flawless. SP1 beta had a few, very minor issues, but was still significantly more stable than RTM.

burhan wrote: About the trackpad -- did you say while a web page is rendering, if so this sounds like a problem with your browser (you didn't mention which one, but I hazard its IE) and not trackpoint itself, although once you throw SP1 RC in there, (any|every)thing is possible.

The problem occured more frequently prior to SP1..and actually occured MORE often on Firefox than in IE. Note that the problem only occurs when scrolling using the trackpoint middle mouse button, not when using the scroll bar. Also, its highly intermittent.

burham wrote: Did these drivers detect your card automatically, or did you have to add the PCID line to the .inf?

Windowsupdate automatically downloaded, installed, and applied the 156.66 drivers. No install, or hack was necessary. Because I'm running SP1, no hotfixes are required either.

Windowsupdate also suggested updated drivers for the UTEK fingerprint reader, which I also installed. Essentially Vista actually keeps track of system and application hangs and crashes, and will log and submit them automatically to the MS support server. MS shares those logs with Lenovo, Lenovo and MS jointly debug the problems, and the fixes go out on Windows update..far earlier than they do on the Lenovo website (which still uses the old IBM "process").

Some crashes are tougher because they leave no dump files. The STOP 0x8086 BSODs and system hangs for example took a long time to trace to the buggy Intel Turbomem drivers

Turbo memory might have some problems and crashes of its own, but it is NOT the culprit in this graphics crashing problem.

I know this because I still have this problem on the loaner T61P I have, and it doesn't even have turbo memory.

Lots of testing has been done already and turbo memory was not one of the common threads in these crashes.

Turbo memory is probably its own separate problem.

I took a stick of memory out of my computer and the problem went away (chalk another one up for Hellbore and co.)

Well, I installed the latest Intel Turbo memory driver but the machine still shuts down during the 3dmark06 test. I guess it's not turbo memory related indeed. I agree with most of the guys that there're some problems with the RAM controller. However, given the fact that we paid premium price for the machine, we will not settlle for something that leaves 1 Dimm of RAM slot unused, that is not a solution to the problem. I think lenovo owns us some definite answers. When and how the problem can be solved.